Most optimal way to record with the PVR 2 Gaming edition?

[Jonz]

I am using it to record PS3 games, the only format it record is in TS, there's no option in Hauppauge to have a more common and lossless format except by flooring the Mbps. Is there other option to get the most of the recording? like near lossless? I don't mind if it by running another capture software.

[SHS]

You do know that it a Hardware H.264 Encoder it only support one video format know as AVC
It can't do lossless compression methods if want that then you need a Standard AVI capture device like a Blackmagic Intensity Pro or Intensity Shuttle

[Jonz]

I know that, but the supported format of the softwares suppliied with the hardware just don't appeal me and it not offering me to capture like in AVI format for example. When I transfer those files in my editors it have all kind of artifacts and it all out of sync. So I was wondering if there's better captures format,

[usually_quiet]

You cannot capture close to lossless with the HD-PVR 2. The HD-PVR 2 encodes using hardware and can only output an H.264 transport steam. The maximum bitrate allowed is 13.5 Mbits/sec, which is probably why you see some artifacts in HD game video. It also captures 1080p 60 input at 1080p 30, which means video is less smooth at that input resolution. If you want a device that outputs uncompressed video for lossless or near lossless .avi capture, and captures 1080p60 at 60 fps you will have to get a different and much more expensive device, plus you will need to set up a RAID array, and possibly make other system upgrades too.

I doubt that there is any alternative Windows capture software that works with the HD-PVR 2 which can capture to .avi files. Hauppauge's own WinTV 7 software is the only other Windows software I could find that works with your device, but it will capture the HD-PVR 2's output to .ts files. You would have to experiment with GraphStudio or GraphEdit to see if it is possible to build a graph that captures H.264 at 13.5 Mbits/sec to an AVI container.

The .mp4 files the manufacturer suppled Arcsoft capture software creates are defective, so using a .ts container is probably the best available option you have for capturing the HD-PVR 2's output. Also, while H.264 can be stored in an AVI container, it is unusual for anyone to do that, so I'm not sure your editing software would work better with that than a .ts file.

[SHS]

I know that, but the supported format of the softwares suppliied with the hardware just don't appeal me and it not offering me to capture like in AVI format for example. When I transfer those files in my editors it have all kind of artifacts and it all out of sync. So I was wondering if there's better captures format,

What editor is it ?.
Be sure to test your clip with VLC for some off wall reason windows 7 codec may cause playback artifacts

[Jonz]

You cannot capture close to lossless with the HD-PVR 2. The HD-PVR 2 encodes using hardware and can only output an H.264 transport steam. The maximum bitrate allowed is 13.5 Mbits/sec, which is probably why you see some artifacts in HD game video. It also captures 1080p 60 input at 1080p 30, which means video is less smooth at that input resolution. If you want a device that outputs uncompressed video for lossless or near lossless .avi capture, and captures 1080p60 at 60 fps you will have to get a different and much more expensive device, plus you will need to set up a RAID array, and possibly make other system upgrades too.

That's sounds a load bs for me. Why I should get another card to get uncompressed video when I get uncompressed video on my live screen? For example I could take FRAPS to record what the recording window and I have uncompressed raw video, the only thing is compressed is what the video hardware already did. What I don't understand is they offer tools to record videos with loss format like mpeg and mp4, and not raw data format like avi. I understand AVI, like the codec used in FRAPS give you a greater file size and maybe unpracticable for the regular joe, but the fact it record in lossless avi format you are kinda certified that the only loss in IQ is in the hardware decoder (and make special effects easier to work with).

[Jonz]

I know that, but the supported format of the softwares suppliied with the hardware just don't appeal me and it not offering me to capture like in AVI format for example. When I transfer those files in my editors it have all kind of artifacts and it all out of sync. So I was wondering if there's better captures format,

What editor is it ?.
Be sure to test your clip with VLC for some off wall reason windows 7 codec may cause playback artifacts

Adobe Premiere, the playback is fine in VLC. The audio is not synched once I go in Premiere. I tried with mp4 and m2ts capture and it either worst or better but still not in sync (and perfect in VLC).

[jagabo]

That's sounds bs for me. Why I should get another card to get uncompressed video when I get uncompressed video on my live screen?

You don't get uncompressed video from the HD PVR 2 on your computer screen. The data that arrives via the USB cable is already compressed by the HD PVR 2. What you see on the screen is decompressed by the CPU or graphics card. Uncompressed 1080i30 YV12 video would require 750 Mb/s of bandwidth. Far beyond what USB 2 can deliver.

[gll99]

You cannot capture close to lossless with the HD-PVR 2. The HD-PVR 2 encodes using hardware and can only output an H.264 transport steam. The maximum bitrate allowed is 13.5 Mbits/sec, which is probably why you see some artifacts in HD game video. It also captures 1080p 60 input at 1080p 30, which means video is less smooth at that input resolution. If you want a device that outputs uncompressed video for lossless or near lossless .avi capture, and captures 1080p60 at 60 fps you will have to get a different and much more expensive device, plus you will need to set up a RAID array, and possibly make other system upgrades too.

That's sounds bs for me.Why I should get another card to get uncompressed video when I get uncompressed video on my live screen? For example I could take FRAPS to record what the recording window and I have uncompressed raw video, the only thing is compressed is what the video hardware already did. What I don't understand is they offer tools to record videos to capture what you get instead they offer you tools that recompress again the video feed you get.

(I'm repeating but....) It's no bs. The video is compressed to h264 by the HDPVR2 before it reaches your computer via the usb bus. It's designed that way. Even if a program could re-compress or decompress on the fly via software it would be a second process and if the artifacts are real they would still be there.

[Jonz]

You cannot capture close to lossless with the HD-PVR 2. The HD-PVR 2 encodes using hardware and can only output an H.264 transport steam. The maximum bitrate allowed is 13.5 Mbits/sec, which is probably why you see some artifacts in HD game video. It also captures 1080p 60 input at 1080p 30, which means video is less smooth at that input resolution. If you want a device that outputs uncompressed video for lossless or near lossless .avi capture, and captures 1080p60 at 60 fps you will have to get a different and much more expensive device, plus you will need to set up a RAID array, and possibly make other system upgrades too.

That's sounds bs for me.Why I should get another card to get uncompressed video when I get uncompressed video on my live screen? For example I could take FRAPS to record what the recording window and I have uncompressed raw video, the only thing is compressed is what the video hardware already did. What I don't understand is they offer tools to record videos to capture what you get instead they offer you tools that recompress again the video feed you get.

(I'm repeating but....) It's no bs. The video is compressed to h264 by the HDPVR2 before it reaches your computer via the usb bus. It's designed that way. Even if a program could re-compress or decompress on the fly via software it would be a second process and if the artifacts are real they would still be there.

As I said, I know it already compress via hardware, but the recording format such as mp4, TS and the other tools they offer add another layer of artifacts (or amplify them) even maxed at 13 mbps, just because you are forced to use these format. In a parallel example, it like photos on the web, you know they are already compressed and to make sure you are not losing more than you see, you printscreen and save the picture in png or in another lossless format to be sure there's no additional loss. Right now it like I'm forced to use gif or jpeg.

[jagabo]

As I said, I know it already compress via hardware, but the recording format such as mp4, TS and the other tools they offer add another layer of artifacts (or amplify them)

No they don't. The video that's in them is exactly the same as what arrived over the USB cable. The problem is your editor can't handle the files. Transport streams and h.264 video the way it's compressed by the HD PVR 2 aren't meant to be editing friendly. They are end delivery formats.

You could always decompress them before editing. You'll have huge files though.

[usually_quiet]

That's sounds a load bs for me. Why I should get another card to get uncompressed video when I get uncompressed video on my live screen? For example I could take FRAPS to record what the recording window and I have uncompressed raw video, the only thing is compressed is what the video hardware already did.

Since there is no capture software for your device that produces losslessly compressed output from H.264 input, the best way to get a losslessly compressed file from your H.264 capture for editing is to use software to convert it to a lossless format your editor understands. ...but as you were already warned, file sizes will be gigantic, and the artifacts you see when the H.264 file is played back will still be present. Plus, it will take some time to convert and write to disc.

What I don't understand is they offer tools to record videos with loss format like mpeg and mp4, and not raw data format like avi. I understand AVI, like the codec used in FRAPS give you a greater file size and maybe unpracticable for the regular joe, but the fact it record in lossless avi format you are kinda certified that the only loss in IQ is in the hardware decoder (and make special effects easier to work with).

.avi is not a codec. Strictly speaking a codec is software or hardware that encodes video or audio to conform to a particular standard, or decodes audio or video that was encoded to conform to a particular standard. .avi is just a file format that can contain many different types of audio and video. Which actual kind of video and audio formats do you want to use for the .avi file?

[SHS]

I know that, but the supported format of the softwares suppliied with the hardware just don't appeal me and it not offering me to capture like in AVI format for example. When I transfer those files in my editors it have all kind of artifacts and it all out of sync. So I was wondering if there's better captures format,

What editor is it ?.
Be sure to test your clip with VLC for some off wall reason windows 7 codec may cause playback artifacts

Adobe Premiere, the playback is fine in VLC. The audio is not synched once I go in Premiere. I tried with mp4 and m2ts capture and it either worst or better but still not in sync (and perfect in VLC).

That because your working with Non-linear editing software which wasn't made to work well with compressed files just like with Sony Vegas and it Audio problem with HD-PVR 2 files you may want try CyberLink PowerDirector some other editor or try the new Hauppauge Capture Tool.
Oh and just you know even FRAPS it to record a slightly compressed file just enough that it can keep up with your hard drive other then will never keep up with RAW data write unless you had RAID or today High Speed SSD.
The USB2 can't handle losslessly compressed output only USB3 or 1x PCIe can and you be ware with losslessly compressed output the file will be super big you easy burn though 600GB+ at 1920x1080p Frame rate 23.98 just 1 hour long and even more at Frame rate 59.94 you see 1.5TB+

[Jonz]

Since there is no capture software for your device that produces losslessly compressed output from H.264 input, the best way to get a losslessly compressed file from your H.264 capture for editing is to use software to convert it to a lossless format your editor understands. ...but as you were already warned, file sizes will be gigantic, and the artifacts you see when the H.264 file is played back will still be present. Plus, it will take some time to convert and write to disc.

I still don't understand why you say the output files are like the way they are during the live capture. To me they are two different entities, live feed on the video viewer is to what I understand coming directly from the h.264 output, then when you record it goes then into a file format you chose which seems to be a loss right here since you do another compression of data that is already compressed. Decompressing the files doesn't seem to make any sense to me. What part I see wrong? I have no worries about the storage space. I have 10tb of storage only for that effect.

.avi is not a codec. Strictly speaking a codec is software or hardware that encodes video or audio to conform to a particular standard, or decodes audio or video that was encoded to conform to a particular standard. .avi is just a file format that can contain many different types of audio and video. Which actual kind of video and audio formats do you want to use for the .avi file?

.avi in my knowledge offer more variety of codecs to output, with .avi I can put Lagarith codec as a lossless format, and some others. Makes editing easier for me.

[Jonz]

Oh and just you know even FRAPS it to record a slightly compressed file just enough that it can keep up with your hard drive other then will never keep up with RAW data write unless you had RAID or today High Speed SSD.
The USB2 can't handle losslessly compressed output only USB3 or 1x PCIe can and you be ware with losslessly compressed output the file will be super big you easy burn though 600GB+ at 1920x1080p Frame rate 23.98 just 1 hour long and even more at Frame rate 59.94 you see 1.5TB+

I am already using Hauppauge capture tool, but it only record in TS format, thus why I created this thread. I know about FRAPS, that's why I have the option RAW checked, and even unchecked the quality is just about good as lossless, and it never bothered the capture speed with my hardware (not even using RAID or SSD).

[Jonz]

I'm pretty sure people aren't follow me quite well, I'm very sorry for that. I have some misconception about how this device work that I still cannot figure out why it is the way it is. I think my main problem is the fact that the Interface is quite confusing. When you set the bitrate in the settings, what or who is affected? the hardware encoder or the file output?

[SHS]

I still don't understand why you say the output files are like the way they are during the live capture. To me they are two different entities, live feed on the video viewer is to what I understand coming directly from the h.264 output, then when you record it goes then into a file format you chose which seems to be a loss right here since you do another compression of data that is already compressed. Decompressing the files doesn't seem to make any sense to me. What part I see wrong? I have no worries about the storage space. I have 10tb of storage only for that effect.

The video viewer is not a Live Feed on the Desktop/Laptop what your are see is decoded video just so you know
This how the HD-PVR 2 works
----------------------------/ Encoder > Dump File > Harddrive > Read File > Decoded > Display in Preview windows
HDMI-IN > A/V splitter <
----------------------------\ HDMI-OUT > TVset or Monitor for Display a Live Feed

[Jonz]

Yes SHS the Display preview window is the live feed I was referring to. Not the one from the splitter (or passthrough).

[SHS]

Yes SHS the Display preview window is the live feed I was referring to. Not the one from the splitter (or passthrough).

So now do you under stand why it not a Live Feed? and that why there is no way you can do lossless format capture nor can change to a diff FourCC other then H264/AVC Video the Audio dose give a few option AAC, HE-ACC or MP2 and with Showbiz can you do 5.1 AC3.
The M2TS, TS, MP4 format container will not make much of a diff

[Jonz]

It still a live feed to me after it being decoded. Technically yes it not live feed because it have two seconds of lag because it need to be decoded first. Yes I understand that the live feed I am speaking about is not lossless because of it has been decoded and compressed with the hardware h.264. What I don't want it is not to be compressed further once it in my computer. What I would like is to take what is in the live feed from the preview window and save it to another container that doesn't involve more h.264 compression in the format the software offer me. Something like FRAPS could do. If it possible to do so with FRAPS, I don't understand why it impossible via the capture software directly.

[SHS]

That where this Video to Video Tool solve all those problem.

I don't understand why it impossible via the capture software directly

You add more cost to product and none other 3rdparty Hardware H264 Encoder device like HD-PVR 2 even do that so petty much out luck unless you go back to old school AVI capture device.

[jagabo]

I still don't understand why you say the output files are like the way they are during the live capture. To me they are two different entities, live feed on the video viewer is to what I understand coming directly from the h.264 output, then when you record it goes then into a file format you chose which seems to be a loss right here since you do another compression of data that is already compressed.

No. What's coming through the USB wire is h.264 compressed video. The capture software decompresses it and displays it on the screen. When you start recording it splits the incoming h.264 data it into two streams. One is decompressed and displayed on the screen (just like during preview), the other is wrapped in a TS container and written to a file. The data written to the file is not "compressed further". It's exactly the same h.264 video that arrived at the USB port.

This is the whole point of using a hardware h.264 encoder device. The computer doesn't have to do any work compressing the video. If you turn off the decompression and display in the capture software (and just write the data to a TS file) you'll see CPU usage drops to almost zero.

[Steve(MS)]

What type editing were you hoping to do with your captures?

[Jonz]

That where this Video to Video Tool solve all those problem.

I don't understand why it impossible via the capture software directly

You add more cost to product and none other 3rdparty Hardware H264 Encoder device like HD-PVR 2 even do that so petty much out luck unless you go back to old school AVI capture device.

I don't understand the logic behind costing more than the product offer. It nothing more than a software problem. For example your tool you provided with the link offer even more capability than the boxed product offer, yet, it free. If you are new in the PC world you'd know that most of the time hardware devices are always pushed beyond the cost by third party softwares that none came with the boxed product, so it nothing new.

[usually_quiet]

What I would like is to take what is in the live feed from the preview window and save it to another container that doesn't involve more h.264 compression in the format the software offer me. Something like FRAPS could do. If it possible to do so with FRAPS, I don't understand why it impossible via the capture software directly.

Look, the HD-PVR 2 and the capture software that works with the HD-PVR 2 were not designed to do what you want to do, so they can't do it. Stop beating a dead horse.

Your choices are to re-encode the .ts files from the HD-PVR 2 to lossless format you can edit with your current editor and re-encode the edior's output, use a different editor that works better with the HD-PVR 2's .ts files, or get a different capture device that allows you to capture with lossless compression as you would like. I'm done here

[Jonz]

No. What's coming through the USB wire is h.264 compressed video. The capture software decompresses it and displays it on the screen. When you start recording it splits the incoming h.264 data it into two streams. One is decompressed and displayed on the screen (just like during preview), the other is wrapped in a TS container and written to a file. The data written to the file is not "compressed further". It's exactly the same h.264 video that arrived at the USB port.

This is the whole point of using a hardware h.264 encoder device. The computer doesn't have to do any work compressing the video. If you turn off the decompression and display in the capture software (and just write the data to a TS file) you'll see CPU usage drops to almost zero.

That's what makes no sense to me, if the decoded signal is decompressed and split into two streams then why it need to be re-encodeded another time it into a file? What makes you believe it as is on the screen and not compressed again (making more loss) ? I understand it need to be a smaller file for most users but what if I want it as is decompressed, why such option cannot be made?

[jagabo]

No. What's coming through the USB wire is h.264 compressed video. The capture software decompresses it and displays it on the screen. When you start recording it splits the incoming h.264 data it into two streams. One is decompressed and displayed on the screen (just like during preview), the other is wrapped in a TS container and written to a file. The data written to the file is not "compressed further". It's exactly the same h.264 video that arrived at the USB port.

This is the whole point of using a hardware h.264 encoder device. The computer doesn't have to do any work compressing the video. If you turn off the decompression and display in the capture software (and just write the data to a TS file) you'll see CPU usage drops to almost zero.

That's what makes no sense to me, if the decoded signal is decompressed and split into two streams then why it need to be re-encodeded another time it into a file?

No. The compressed h.264 video is split into two streams. One is decompressed and sent to the screen so you can see what's going on. The other goes directly into a TS file without being decompressed and encoded again. What's in the file is exactly what the HD PVR sent.

[Jonz]

Thanks Jagabo, I think I start to understand the process now. Didn't realize the split was actually doing all this. And to confirm, I just tried something stupid like put the Video Quality slider bar completely to the left and the preview video is ugly, which makes now sense I always thought the previewer was always maxed IQ and the slider is how you want the final output quality. I still doesn't quite grasp how it possible the output is 1:1 since you can choose other format in ArcSoft for example that let you chose mp4 or mst2. Is it because the building of the file format is also limited to the hardware? And what the GUI offer is in fact something like switches that send to the device instruction to tell which format it is sending data into your hard drive?

[jagabo]

I still doesn't quite grasp how it possible the output is 1:1 since you can choose other format in ArcSoft for example that let you chose mp4 or mst2. Chosing between those format gives me different quality results, and different audio out sync in my editor.

MP4, TS, and M2TS are just containers -- standardized ways of organizing video and audio (and other things like subtitles, chapter markers, etc.) in a file to make accessing them easier for other programs. This is like putting all your papers in hanging folders, sorted alphabetically, then putting those folders in a filing cabinet with labels so you can find them easily at a later date.

The quality of of the video and audio in the different containers is exactly the same. The problems you are having have to do with the way your editor handles those containers.

[Jonz]

you happen to reply just as I redited my post to be precise, but I think it had the answer regardless. I just made few tests on the 3 format and I think you are right about the quality is the same, VLC was making artifacts randomly on few then not at all when I replayed it.

I tried to reconvert a TS sample into a format that I am used to with Video to Video, but the audio is still all out of sync on every different format I tried. To make sure I wasn't crazy I double check the original to be sure I wasn't some illusions I saw but the original TS is still in sync. So I don't know what's wrong with this. I tried the RAW video format, but I couldn't even read it in Premiere, all it give is a black video with no sound. I was able to play only the beginning with wmp, but I couldn't skip without having fatal errors.

It give me a huge error log on every time I try to make a conversion, but it a bit chinese to me.