Teeth (not Mice!).

[Compo]

I'm inporting a VOB file into vegas 8.
When I render it out (to exactly the same spec).
...and burn to DVD using Atrchitect.

I get small black and white "TEETH" along the top of the frame.
I have also seen this on much commercial TV, especially news programmes lately.

What are they and how can I cure them?
Prefferebly without cropping the frame?

Thanks!

[lordsmurf]

Closed captions.
Mask, don't crop.

This is in the overscan anyway, it can't be seen on a TV.

[Compo]

Thanks for that I'll look into "Overscan"
BUT how do you stop it happening? I dont want to mask parts of my merticulously constructed scene if I can help it!
However It most certainly can be seen on my TV using DVDs I have burned and as I said in the 1st post I have actually seen this Quite often on Commercial TV programmes. (BBC News24 as an example)!!

..and I'm not getting confused with the small teeth that are often seen just prior to a commercial break.

[lordsmurf]

Post a sample image.
You may not be describing it accurately.

[Compo]

See attache Jpeg.
Along the very top are the Teeth.
Sometimes they are bigger than this.

[jagabo]

That looks like "line 23" data that flags the aspect ratio (and other stuff) in analog PAL video.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Widescreen_signaling

Look to disable an option for those flags.

[manono]

I just saw some of that recently. I cropped it away. Crop or mask it, no big deal.

[edDV]

In standard def analog broadcast (PAL or NTSC) the "vertical interval data" occur in the non visible vertical interval lines.

When converted for SD ATSC/DVB or more likely when upscaled for pillared 4:3 at HD resolution, often the local TV stations have their upscalers set wrong allowing the vertical interval pulses to enter the active frame. The way to "correct" it is to complain to the chief engineer at the local TV station. In the USA, these kinds of complaints can affect license renewal unless fixed. Not sure if government TV stations will have reason to care. Cable and DBS broadcasters may or may not respond to complaints. I see less of this on Comcast.

[Compo]

Ok That all makes sense but a couple more Q's.

1. Any idea how to stop it showing (apart from mask or crop) in Vegas?

2. If it is the bit that holds the data to tell the device weather to switch to widescreen etc will this mean that if I do manage to get rid of them then anyone playing resulting DVD will have to manually select the screen format?

3.The original DVD I took the VOB file from works perfectly in all situations. No lines, teeth or otherwise. I do not convert the file to anything else. It stays as as an Mpeg2 16x9 widescreen (exactly as the original) when I import it into vegas and my project settings in vegas are set similarly.
So Why am I getting them if I'm not "Upscaling" Downscaling" "Converting" "Compressing" or etc etc etc

[jagabo]

1. Any idea how to stop it showing (apart from mask or crop) in Vegas?

If it's in the source -- no.

2. If it is the bit that holds the data to tell the device weather to switch to widescreen etc will this mean that if I do manage to get rid of them then anyone playing resulting DVD will have to manually select the screen format?

No. DVD has it's own widescreen flags in the IFO and VOB files. The player will see those flags.

3.The original DVD I took the VOB file from works perfectly in all situations. No lines, teeth or otherwise.

Because your TV overscans. You can't see the top of the frame (or the bottom or sides)

I do not convert the file to anything else. It stays as as an Mpeg2 16x9 widescreen (exactly as the original) when I import it into vegas and my project settings in vegas are set similarly.
So Why am I getting them if I'm not "Upscaling" Downscaling" "Converting" "Compressing" or etc etc etc

Because it's already encoded in the picture on the DVD. Open one of the DVDs with and editor and you'll see.

If it's not on the DVD source then you are reencoding and some setting in your editor/encoder is adding the data.

[Compo]

It may well be on the source DVD however when this is played on a TV or DVD program the TEETH do not Show.

When I then simply Add the original VOB file to the Vegas Timeline without Change I get to see the TEETH.

When I then render the file out of Vegas and create a DVD of my very own I DO SEE THE TEETH both on my PC and on My TV.

All I do to the file when it is in Vegas is remove the sound track. (I then render seperate audio tracks only for the various languages I need to add when creating the new DVD).

It would seem then that Somehow Vegas is allowing theese Teeth to be a visible part of the frame and not hiding them as I keep being told they should be when vieved on a TV screen.
Therefore Has anyone any ideas why Vegas (or possibly Architect) is doing this?

[poisondeathray]

All I do to the file when it is in Vegas is remove the sound track. (I then render seperate audio tracks only for the various languages I need to add when creating the new DVD).

If all you are using vegas for is removing the audio track , there are faster/better ways of doing this that do not re-encode the video

If you just copy the video, then add in separate audio tracks in dvda, then there is no quality loss in the video

It is possible to smart render mpeg2 in vegas, but it has to be setup properly. The screen will say something like "smart rendering, no recomperssion required" if it's working properly

Maybe there is a slight discrepancy in the aspect ratios causing the defect to be seen when you re-encode it. This will be avoided if you just copy the video

If you really want to find out why, then it would help to see an original sample, export sample, project settings and export settings

[edDV]

Is this similar to your issue? This is NTSC. PAL will look slightly different. Please post some frame caps or a small clip from the source video. VLC is a good choice for frame cap.

[jagabo]

It may well be on the source DVD however when this is played on a TV or DVD program the TEETH do not Show.

Because your TV overscans.

When I then simply Add the original VOB file to the Vegas Timeline without Change I get to see the TEETH.

Then they are in the DVD picture.

When I then render the file out of Vegas and create a DVD of my very own I DO SEE THE TEETH both on my PC and on My TV.

Are you changing the aspect ratio? The picture you posted appears to be a 4:3 DAR image in a 16:9 DAR frame. Is your TV 4:3 or 16:9?

[Compo]

I'm working in PAL and no I have not changed the aspect ratio. I have been meticulous in making sure that all the proporties in Vegas are the same as the original along with all the output settings.
My TV is 4:3 BUT i have tried the DVD on !6:9 sets too.

I will try the smart render but I also have to produce a second version of the film that I need to Time stretch to fit a foreign language.

I think at this point I will take all the information you wonderful people have passed on to me and start the whole project from scratch again. I may be some time but please watch out for "TEETH (not mice)" the sequal coming to a forum near you some time soon (no doubt).

Any tips on what to check as I'm setting sessions etc etc would be most appreciated!

[jagabo]

Examine your source and the VOB files you produced with something like DgIndex or VirtualDubMod. Those two programs show you a 1:1 image of the video file (no adjustments for aspect ratio, overscan compensation, nothing added to or removed from the picture, etc.). Are the two videos identical?

[Cornucopia]

My guess is that, even though you've attempted to be very exact and meticulous, somehow your Vegas edit settings don't match, because that would certainly explain all the stuff you've mentioned.

There are 3 areas to think about this:
1. "Interpretation" of the source media
2. Project/Timeline settings
3. Render/Export settings

For us to really be able to get to the bottom of this, we'd need to see screenshots of those settings (and before & after samples).

Scott