Need advice on best capturing solution

[vitalic]

Hi, I would like to record pc footage, it must be a hardware solution because the framerate loss from running Fraps is unacceptable.

Graphics card is ATI Radeon HD 5770, 2 DVI ports 1 HDMI port. The two options I'm considering are the Intensity Pro and Hauppage HD PVR, I'm not sure if the HD PVR is viable and I'm wondering what the performance impact of recording on the same PC with the Intensity would be, whether it would be better or worse than Fraps.

[DB83]

When you say 'PC footage' do you mean record what you are actually seeing on your PC screen ?

What is the source video ? A game player or another video source ?

[vitalic]

Sorry, to clarify: I want to record PC gameplay footage, preferably at 1080p (hence why Fraps is not really an option as the framerate loss at that resolution is significant)

[DB83]

While the Intensity Pro looks like the kit to have, you are probably limited to the output resolution of your games machine. I suspect that will be 576i (Pal) - someone with more knowledge of the Intensity can help more there.

To be frank, most people capture game footage with an Ezcap116 (that is the latest version and do get one from the official source) - you then get dvd quality.

What you seem to be trying to do is capture your footage full-screen from your monitor. No capture device will help you with that. You can try other screen capture software but a full 1920*1080 is going to test any system.

[vitalic]

I don't understand why it would be limited? Surely the graphics card can output higher resolutions than that. Might recording PC to PC be a better option?

[DB83]

The graphics card is not the issue. That can output 1080p. And it is upscaling the output from the games machine to display full screen.

Now just consider the maths. 1920*1080 = 2073600 pixels which are refreshed x times per second. Every 2073600 pixels must then be captured by the HDD at the same x times per second and if it can not keep up then you drop frames which is what you are getting right now.

Like I said, if someone can clarify the issue with the Intensity as to how it captures - native as in or up-scaled then you can move on.

[usually_quiet]

Playing games and recording on the same PC, especially in the quality you want, won't be possible, as far as I can determine.

The Hauppauge HD PVR and AverMedia's DarkCrystal HD Capture Station hardware encode, so are less CPU and HDD intensive, but require a component video connection as the source, and your VGA card doesn't provide that.

The Hauppauge Colossus HD-PVR can also hardware encode and records from a HDMI source, but won't record from a source with HDCP, and your video card is HDCP compliant.

The other HD recording solutions use software encoding, and are therefore both CPU and HDD intensive, so you won't have a good experience trying to play and record on the same PC. Plus they also either require a component video sources or won't record a HDMI source with HDCP.

If you record on a different PC with a sufficiently powerful CPU, then maybe the Avermedia AVerTV HD DVR would work with HDMI. There is a supposed to hack that disables HDCP detection.

[vitalic]

Thanks for this, very useful information. Now I wish I had bought an nVidia VGA card instead. Do you have any knowledge of the Intensity Shuttle? This appears to have HDMI in but not sure if it would be prevented by HDCP as well.

As for PC to PC, my old PC has a very weak processor (something like a Pentium 3 single core and 1GB RAM), roughly how detrimental to the capture quality would it be to have a machine like that recording? I presume the HD DVR/Intensity Pro cards etc. don't take any strain of the host machine so it doesn't sound very promising.

[Nelson37]

There used to be an ATI dongle for DVI to Component, they were card-specific but may be a solution.

Also not sure if videogames are implementing HDCP? I know I can output to a DVI port on an HDTV with no problems.

[vitalic]

Also not sure if videogames are implementing HDCP? I know I can output to a DVI port on an HDTV with no problems.

That's what I was thinking, although I know next to nothing about HDCP works I would assume the content has to be encoded with it to begin with. If that were the case then the Colossus would surely be a good choice. I think an HDMI to Component converter/transcoder might also work but the price of them is extortionate.

There used to be an ATI dongle for DVI to Component, they were card-specific but may be a solution.

Thanks for the suggestion, will have a sniff about to see if I can find anything.

[usually_quiet]

Thanks for this, very useful information. Now I wish I had bought an nVidia VGA card instead. Do you have any knowledge of the Intensity Shuttle? This appears to have HDMI in but not sure if it would be prevented by HDCP as well.

As for PC to PC, my old PC has a very weak processor (something like a Pentium 3 single core and 1GB RAM), roughly how detrimental to the capture quality would it be to have a machine like that recording? I presume the HD DVR/Intensity Pro cards etc. don't take any strain of the host machine so it doesn't sound very promising.

Like those making AMD-based VGA cards, those making Nvidia-based VGA cards presently sell mostly HDCP compliant video cards and don't have many cards that provide component out these days. As I recall, the hardware on your current card actually is capable of component out, but nobody includes the right kind of TV-out ports these days, not since HDMI became popular.

The Intensity Pro uses software encoding and is going to be very CPU and GPU intensive. The Intensity Shuttle uses software encoding as well, and requires USB 3.0. It is so cutting-edge that very few people can use it successfully. Technically none of the cards with HDMI inputs will encode from a source with HDCP. The Avermedia card I mentioned just supposedly has a hack available to disable detection, if you don't use the latest drivers for it.

Maybe you and a friend could do this as a joint project so you would both have one good PC to use for recording PC games and another one for playing them.

[Edit]DVI is HDCP-capable too. From what I understand, if the hardware supports HDCP, the content doesn't matter.

[vitalic]

DVI is HDCP-capable too. From what I understand, if the hardware supports HDCP, the content doesn't matter.

Hm ok, thanks. This is really annoying, I can't believe it is so difficult to record PC footage with modern components.

[edDV]

Analog component (1080i or 720p) out to a Hauppauge HD-PVR (hardware h.264 compression) would be a good general solution but your chosen ATI Radeon HD 5770 lacks analog component out.

HDMI to a second PC (BM Intensity or Avermedia) is an option only if the HDMI is HDCP free. These cards have no hardware compression so the PC capture codec must compress to an intermediate format (MJPEG or Cineform).

[Brad]

Fortunately for you, the understanding of HDCP in this thread is incorrect. Video cards that support it will only use it when protected video/audio is played in a supported player.

Two shots from the AVerMedia software without any workaround.

No video playback, no HDCP:


Encrypted Blu-ray, HDCP:


As noted, all of the HDMI capture cards currently available do not do hardware encoding, so they are unsuitable for your purpose. I think you can still preorder the Colossus at a discounted price.

Note that it will still only do 1080i or 720p, no 1080p like you want.

[vitalic]

That is good to know, it did seem counter-intuitive as the video cards tend to state that they are "HDCP compatible" and not that they automatically encode all output.

In terms of handling interlaced footage, is it just a case of de-interlacing it during post-processing or are there any other considerations to take into account?

Also it seems you can only pre-order the Colossus from the Hauppage store which is a bit inconvenient being from the UK, can't believe they aren't allowing pre-orders via Amazon etc.

[usually_quiet]

Fortunately for you, the understanding of HDCP in this thread is incorrect. Video cards that support it will only use it when protected video/audio is played in a supported player.

Good to know that HDCP protection is conditional on PCs. I read what Wikipedia and a few other sources say about HDCP and came away with the impression that HDCP is a strictly a hardware function that would always provided by an HDCP compliant device, even if the content doesn't require any protection, as is reported to be the case with the PS3.

The new Hauppauge Colossus would be the best choice then.

[Brad]

In terms of handling interlaced footage, is it just a case of de-interlacing it during post-processing or are there any other considerations to take into account?

You can deinterlace it, but the vertical resolution of the interpolated portions will be lower than 720p. And with a game having a constantly-moving camera, I would think most areas would end up interpolated unless you use a fancy motion-compensated method.

Actually, if this is destined for internet video, if you can lock the game's frame rate to 29.97 fps you will end up with 1080p30 and no deinterlacing required. Of course that's only if you can handle playing at that lower rate.

Good to know that HDCP protection is conditional on PCs. I read what Wikipedia and a few other sources say about HDCP and came away with the impression that HDCP is a strictly a hardware function that would always provided by an HDCP compliant device, even if the content doesn't require any protection, as is reported to be the case with the PS3.

Indeed true for the PS3, but the Xbox 360 is conditional as well I believe -- it definitely doesn't use HDCP for games, but I guess it would for DVD or Netflix, etc. playback. I don't have one to check.

[vitalic]

Actually, if this is destined for internet video, if you can lock the game's frame rate to 29.97 fps you will end up with 1080p30 and no deinterlacing required. Of course that's only if you can handle playing at that lower rate.

Well the initial motivation for this was to actually be able to record without such a significant FPS loss, if it's a case of playing at <30 fps I might as well just use Fraps.

This person seemed to have some success recording 1080i: https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/292762-My-Experience-PC-to-PC-1080i-capture-using-B...627&viewfull=1

Could be worth a try...

[usually_quiet]

Well the initial motivation for this was to actually be able to record without such a significant FPS loss, if it's a case of playing at <30 fps I might as well just use Fraps.

This person seemed to have some success recording 1080i: https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/292762-My-Experience-PC-to-PC-1080i-capture-using-B...627&viewfull=1

Could be worth a try...

Certainly, if like the OP from that link, you can get your hands on a second PC with enough power to handle the demands of recording from a Blackmagic Intensity Pro... The Hauppauge Colossus hardware encodes using H.264 not MJPEG.

[edDV]

Actually, if this is destined for internet video, if you can lock the game's frame rate to 29.97 fps you will end up with 1080p30 and no deinterlacing required. Of course that's only if you can handle playing at that lower rate.

Well the initial motivation for this was to actually be able to record without such a significant FPS loss, if it's a case of playing at <30 fps I might as well just use Fraps.

This person seemed to have some success recording 1080i: https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/292762-My-Experience-PC-to-PC-1080i-capture-using-B...627&viewfull=1

Could be worth a try...

If fps is the chief concern, 1280x720/59.94p or 50p is the best you can do for video recording. 1080p @ 59.94 fps isn't supported by any of the consumer level capture devices.

What do you intend to do with this video? Distribution format drives capture method.

As for HDCP, the game or DVD/BD author can set actions for HDCP. Anything from OFF to Record Never is possible.

[vitalic]

Certainly, if like the OP from that link, you can get your hands on a second PC with enough power to handle the demands of recording from a Blackmagic Intensity Pro... The Hauppauge Colossus hardware encodes using H.264 not MJPEG.

Yeh true, but I was more referring to his handling of 1080i footage in a gaming context, upon further research it seems there are quite a few filters/scripts you can use to do some smart de-interlacing now, so the Colossus should be viable -- and if worse comes to worse the 720p option is always there. Just need to wait for it to become available here now! Thanks for your help everyone.

Edit:

If fps is the chief concern, 1280x720/59.94p or 50p is the best you can do for video recording. 1080p @ 59.94 fps isn't supported by any of the consumer level capture devices.

What do you intend to do with this video?

720p may well suffice, it is simply for web video but I want to achieve the highest quality possible. I do wonder if the Insanity Pro recording at 720p on the same machine would be tolerable in terms of performance impact, I just have no frame of reference in terms of judging that and I've not been able to find anyone with a similar setup.

[Brad]

1080p @ 59.94 fps isn't supported by any of the consumer level capture devices.

BM claims that the Intensity Shuttle does it with one specific USB3 chipset, if you consider them consumer-level.

As for HDCP, the game or DVD/BD author can set actions for HDCP. Anything from OFF to Record Never is possible.

I don't think so. BD requires all discs to be AACS encrypted, and the playback device takes presence or lack of encryption as the trigger for using HDCP (hence why running AnyDVD = no HDCP even during Blu-ray playback). If any PC game requires HDCP, we'd have heard about it by now from people with unsupported monitors complaining. I would be interested to learn if such complaints have surfaced.

I believe you're confusing HDCP with the "broadcast flag". As far as I'm aware HDCP doesn't have a notion of "Record Always/Once/Never" -- no HDCP content is supposed to be recorded.

But, OP: how will you be distributing it? YouTube still decimates 60p footage to 30p from what I've read.

[edDV]

1080p @ 59.94 fps isn't supported by any of the consumer level capture devices.

BM claims that the Intensity Shuttle does it with one specific USB3 chipset, if you consider them consumer-level.

As for HDCP, the game or DVD/BD author can set actions for HDCP. Anything from OFF to Record Never is possible.

...

I believe you're confusing HDCP with the "broadcast flag". As far as I'm aware HDCP doesn't have a notion of "Record Always/Once/Never" -- no HDCP content is supposed to be recorded.

Yes, if HDCP authentication is successful the uncompressed video stream will be passed to the display/recoding device, but if authentication is unsuccessful, various actions can be triggered such as allow reduced resolution (with or without record flags), etc. but those are not part of the HDCP spec. HDCP just reports whether authentication was successful.

BM Shuttle I'd currently classify as an experimental hobbyist product. When 1080 60p works, it may be considered a specialized game/computer accessory since 1080 60p is not a supported consumer level format (ATSC, DVB, Blu-Ray, etc.). Many HD displays will accept 1080 60p as a computer or signage input.