odd problem: vid looks fine in vegas and AE but weak after rendering. ?

[tsimmons]

Thanks for all the help!

Tim

[Paul Simmel]

tsimmons,

I used to mess with Vegas some years ago. I learned that you can't render to a lower quality and render back to higher quality. So I learned to use raw footage as much as possible. Any effects work, I'd always render it back as the same (AVI if possible). The final render will always cut your quality some regardless... so as a rule of thumb, (even though the files can be huge) I'd work my way incrementally down, because there is no "up, down, and back up again". If you are rendering down to smaller, easier-to-work-with files for effects work, and then rendering "up" again, this may be why your quality has dropped significantly.

Edit: Some of my renders would take an entire day... especially color correction and such, because each frame is being altered.

[Paul Simmel]

Just subscribing to the thread...

[tsimmons]

Just subscribing to the thread...

No, I know you can't down sample then up sample and expect the quality to be there. You cannot get the original pixels back. My problems were about what aspect ratios and sizes I need for DVD and whether to down sample and LEAVE it that way all the way through but I think I'll have to do a VERY small test vid (like a few seconds) and see if I can take that all the way from my camera to DVD successfully and if I can, WRITE IT DOWN! hahhahaha Cuz that's how I'll be doing my real DVDs. So, just got some work ahead of me trying to figure it all out.

Thanks for the input. Here's a commercial I just did a few days ago and I think I used 1280 x 720 pixel aspect ratio of 1.0 after making intermediate files to take into after effects. It turned out okay but my filming sucked due to not having any good lighting to use. But I tried to compensate in AE.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eONb0fE8lwA

All the other vids on there I made too.



Tim

[Paul Simmel]

Well, it looks like you're getting the hang of Vegas pretty well. Nice work. Looks like you have a nice camera too. I was at that level a few years back, but now I have forgotten a lot. It's slowly coming back, though. Good luck.

[tsimmons]

Well, it looks like you're getting the hang of Vegas pretty well. Nice work. Looks like you have a nice camera too. I was at that level a few years back, but now I have forgotten a lot. It's slowly coming back, though. Good luck.

Thanks. My camera is a Canon HV30. About $800 a few years back. It does up to 1440 x 1080 and does have a good picture but I never have been able to really sit down with it and understand it all but anyway, I had horrible lighting on that one and just salvaged in AE. I wish I had some good lights on good stands but all my stuff (PC, greenscreen, audio, etc) is in ONE 15 x 15 bedroom. I have no throw with which to properly film and light my greenscreen. So, I just have to make do. You'd laugh if you saw how little room I have. But I never really thought of doing vids for $. Just started doing some YT vids and I've always been creative.

I love Vegas. I'm not a Mac fan. I prefer PC. Vegas (to me) is designed to where it all makes sense. No stupid weird nonstandard interfaces. Menus at top, right click menus, I can just about find what I need. Just this new DVD stuff is throwing me! hahhaha

Thanks fer lookin at my vid and good luck to you!

Tim

[aedipuss]

i do a lot of work with canon hv20/30/40s and normally my workflow with vegas goes like this. shoot 30p in cine mode, as it's closest to actual colors and matches canon gl's and xl's in normal mode. the 1440x1080 30p HDV is actually 1920x1080 if converted to square pixels. import the HDV files into vegas after capturing with HDVsplit. right click on each and every HDV file imported and select properties. change the interlace setting to none. that is the only way vegas will know the files are progressive. then you can do your editing. when it's time to export i need youtube video and dvd spec mpeg-2 files.

for youtube the sony avc codec with the internet HD 16x9 1280x720p template is pretty good. change the bitrate to 5-6mbps and you will always get the HD links for your videos.

for dvd choose mainconcept mpeg-2 and a dvd template that is video only, make sure it's set to 16x9. adjust your bitrate to fill a dvd with the audio included. choose stretch video to output frame size(do not letterbox). render the audio to ac-3 2ch or it can create 5.1ch if you wish.

if i were going to render out and work in a.e. before rendering to dvd spec, i would render to widescreen DVavi. it's the proper 720x480 for dvd and is easier to work with.

[tsimmons]

i do a lot of work with canon hv20/30/40s and normally my workflow with vegas goes like this. shoot 30p in cine mode, as it's closest to actual colors and matches canon gl's and xl's in normal mode. the 1440x1080 30p HDV is actually 1920x1080 if converted to square pixels. import the HDV files into vegas after capturing with HDVsplit. right click on each and every HDV file imported and select properties. change the interlace setting to none. that is the only way vegas will know the files are progressive. then you can do your editing. when it's time to export i need youtube video and dvd spec mpeg-2 files.

for youtube the sony avc codec with the internet HD 16x9 1280x720p template is pretty good. change the bitrate to 5-6mbps and you will always get the HD links for your videos.

for dvd choose mainconcept mpeg-2 and a dvd template that is video only, make sure it's set to 16x9. adjust your bitrate to fill a dvd with the audio included. choose stretch video to output frame size(do not letterbox). render the audio to ac-3 2ch or it can create 5.1ch if you wish.

if i were going to render out and work in a.e. before rendering to dvd spec, i would render to widescreen DVavi. it's the proper 720x480 for dvd and is easier to work with.

"cine mode" Wow! Cine mode looked like crap on my camera. I tried it under florescent lighting and filmed a painting I did and the colors were way off. To me, portrait looks good or just leave it to auto everything. But then, I'm open for ideas on why my cine mode sucked so badly. I also notice on my camera that in certain modes I see bars of discoloration going up the display (and in the vid too). horizontal bars. Not sure why but I see them in some shots and more when the background is light and covers a large area.

"HDV split" wha? I just use the capture native in Vegas and capture HDV to a clip that Vegas can read in (mt2 or something). What does this HDV split do?

Now, I DID notice when I captured prog into Vegas, I right click the clip and it STILL says interlaced!!! I'm like... IDIOT! Vegas can't determine if it's prog or not? that's insane. So, maybe I need this hdv split to do that? Vegas still seems to encode it as prog tho. But it sure cost me a lot of time trying to figure out why my prog vid was showing as interlaced.

man... I need to just get a job at a fast food place or something. This stuff has so many gotchas you never knew were there.

Thanks for the workflow tips. That's just what I needed. I wonder if my HV30 is messed up ref those bars. I set the shutter speed to like 1000 and I noticed the same uneven color and barring and it was way worse. So, it could be related to the brightness ofmy shot? anyway, thanks and any other help you can give is appreciated.



Tim

[jagabo]

Now, I DID notice when I captured prog into Vegas, I right click the clip and it STILL says interlaced!!! I'm like... IDIOT! Vegas can't determine if it's prog or not? that's insane.

The two fields contained in each each frame are from the same instant in time (rather than two separate instances in time) but they are encoded as interlaced video (a matter of how the video is handled inside the MPEG data stream). Vegas doesn't look at the contents of the frames, just the encoding flags.

[aedipuss]

it doesn't matter what you use to capture with but i prefer to capture with hdvsplit as it has the options i like. the files are the same no matter what is used if they have the same settings.

you will always have to manually tell vegas that the 30p HDV is 30p. like jag says it's 2 separate fields in an interlaced stream so vegas will always try to use it as interlaced.

can't help with why your cine mode isn't working. all the hv's ive used have a "normal" not over-saturated color in that mode. it may look paler on the view screen but it's much closer to true.

[tsimmons]

Thanks jag and aed. When you film using cinema mode, what other settings do you use? auto? or do you pick shutter priority or aperture priority? Is that switch on the side to p or auto? arg!!! hehe man, I will try cinema again but cinema with whatever settings was on the camera made it horribly off. Not sure why.


thanks!


Tim

[jagabo]

I did see this:

http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/canon-vixia-hv-series-hdv-camcorders/100882-hv20-cinemode-...tml#post725554

about cinema mode on the Canon HV camcorders.

[aedipuss]

manual mode "p" on the side. normally i only manually set audio levels, unless the camera image looks way off... the side full "auto" mode is over saturated and bright. also it doesn't match the output levels from other canon pro cams whereas the cine mode does.

[tsimmons]

Thanks again for the input. I'll keep hacking away and see what I can discover. I think auto is making my vid shift during filming and the color's fine at first then it shifts to way too saturated. I'll try P with cinema again and just see if maybe it works now. could be some weird setting i had when it didn't.

thanks!


Tim

[tsimmons]

I did see this:

http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/canon-vixia-hv-series-hdv-camcorders/100882-hv20-cinemode-...tml#post725554

about cinema mode on the Canon HV camcorders.

Been reading this thread. almost like a soap opera. Seems one guy's results were much different though and I'd have griped too. I want the detail THERE because you can always obliterate it in post. Makes no sense to do too much processing while filming, IMO. Just what's necessary to get a clear image with good color and no blowout of highs or lows.

Very interesting reading but many of the pics are no longer in the thread.

I think I'll try some tests of my own comparing cinema with TV etc. I think most of my vids used auto mode and I was fairly happy with that. So, I guess some tests using the same shot on tripod might help me understand this better. When I film myself, I leave auto focus on cuz I don't know how to focus it if I'm not really standing there.

thanks again!


Tim

[Paul Simmel]

I did see this:

http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/canon-vixia-hv-series-hdv-camcorders/100882-hv20-cinemode-...tml#post725554

about cinema mode on the Canon HV camcorders.

Been reading this thread. almost like a soap opera. Seems one guy's results were much different though and I'd have griped too. I want the detail THERE because you can always obliterate it in post. Makes no sense to do too much processing while filming, IMO. Just what's necessary to get a clear image with good color and no blowout of highs or lows.

Very interesting reading but many of the pics are no longer in the thread.

I think I'll try some tests of my own comparing cinema with TV etc. I think most of my vids used auto mode and I was fairly happy with that. So, I guess some tests using the same shot on tripod might help me understand this better. When I film myself, I leave auto focus on cuz I don't know how to focus it if I'm not really standing there.

thanks again!


Tim

Tim, I am still stuck on the Original Post (OP). By your word, you are not losing quality as you re-render for AF, etc. Then why don't you use your flat-screen TV as your Preview monitor in Vegas and AF??? I have a Visio 44", maybe you have a Sony. A simple RGB cord or an HDMI cord will get you there. IMO, this will get you as close to what you need short of buying a calibrated video monitor. What you see THERE will give you a more realistic sense of what things will look like during DVD playback.

[tsimmons]

"why don't you use your flat-screen TV"

What flat screen TV?


Tim

[tsimmons]

Well, I compared cinema mode with tungsten lighting setting 30p no processing in camera like sharpen or such to TV mode (shutter priority) with speed of 1/60th 30p tungsten lighting and I saw no loss of details to speak of in cinema mode like that guy in the thread did (his was wacked) but I did see that cinema mode seemed to have less contrast and the very brights and darks were not as pronounced and seemed to have a touch less saturation. The depth of field seemed to be about the same as the TV mode. I was about 2 feet away each time and it focused on my lips/nose or front of face pretty well and slightly out of focus as distance increased to where even my ears were a touch out of focus. But compared back to back, cinema mode actually looked better in 32 bit/channel mode. It had a good look after I bumped down the saturation to 88 from 100. TV mode looked unusable in 32 bit mode. way too much color and contrast.

But, perhaps in a different setup, TV mode might look fine. But here's the thing I need to know. How to keep the exposure from auto adjusting? It should not do that in TV mode (and why call it TV mode if it's just about setting shutter speed??? more confusion) but what about cinema mode? You don't want your background going dark as your guy in the white suit walks into the frame. I noticed it did that on cinema mode and auto tests I did outside.

Anyway, thanks fer all the help.


Tim

[tsimmons]

I found one answer on manual exposure (meaning, camera doesn't try to alter exposure during filming). It's not obvious but you set shutter speed using TV mode then set exposure but I have to assume this doesn't work in cinema mode and therefore totally blows any chance at all of actually using the HV30 for anything like a movie which seems ironic given that its... cinema mode. ?

Tim