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  1. Member Seeker47's Avatar
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    As measured for CPU, GPU, and inside system box overall:

    Can someone who knows quote these for me, expressed as a range (for each) going from, say,

    Bad / Avoid
    to
    Avg. / O.K. (if there is such a thing)
    to
    This would be ideal.

    Maybe this varies a lot, depending on CPU and GPU ? Dual core (~ 125 watt.), 4G. Ram, and a 9600 card, might be the sort of baseline I had in mind, with no overclocking going on. I'm just trying to get an idea of what sort of temps I should be looking for, to know the system is not baking itself into a bad situation.

    I guess it should be reckoned in Centigrade, which seems to be standard. (I did buy one of those point & read thermometers someone recommended here.)

    Is how hot the exhaust air feels to your hand a good indicator ?

    Thanks in Advance.
    When in Las Vegas, don't miss the Pinball Hall of Fame Museum http://www.pinballmuseum.org/ -- with over 150 tables from 6+ decades of this quintessentially American art form.
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  2. I had a similar question a few days back that might give you some helpful info, the post was here:

    https://forum.videohelp.com/topic367420.html
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  3. Mod Neophyte redwudz's Avatar
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    It's not uncommon to have CPU temps in the low 60C range under 100% load. Not good, but not harmful. It really depends a lot on the CPU, then, of course, the CPU cooler, the thermal compound used, and the internal case temps. If your temps are in the 60C range at idle and you are using a stock cooler, I would definitely upgrade it.

    A system with good cooling may have idle temps in the 25 - 35C range. Sometimes lower, depending on your set up. Full load would be 35 - 45C. Most CPUs will have problems above 70C and may ramp down the CPU speed or just shut down the computer. And your thermal paste may 'wear out' faster.

    The other motherboard chip that runs hot is the Northbridge. It's generally close to the CPU and has a fairly big heatsink. You can often attach a small fan directly to the heatsink with a couple of screws and lower the temp a little.

    If you are using air cooling, you have to move air through the case. Intake and exhaust fans do that. The more air movement, the better the heat will be pulled away from the components. Lots of air movement usually comes with lots of fan noise. It's a balance.

    GPUs always seem to run hot. I generally see temps in the 50C range, even at idle. But they are made for that. But cooler is always better.

    Many RAM modules have attached heatsinks and that helps. RAM doesn't normally run that hot unless you are overclocking or raising the voltage. Usually the air spilled off the CPU cooler helps cool it.

    The case exhaust should be warm if it's pulling heat from the case. Most of mine have exhaust temps in the 30 - 35C range, a bit more under load.

    The case temps should always be lower than the CPU temp or you won't be doing much cooling. Case temps would be nice to have in the 20 - 30C range.

    The power supply exhaust shouldn't be that hot or it may be overloaded. By hot, I mean PSU exhaust temps above 40C may be on the high side. Some PSUs also pull case air from directly above the CPU cooler. They may have higher exhaust temps because of this.

    If you have a infrared non-contact thermometer, that will give you the best temperature information. The temps you read through software will most often be quite a bit higher. The temperatures on the BIOS page will give you the most accurate software reading. But during BIOS, the fan controls are not working, so it will show a bit higher most times. Temperature reading programs from the motherboard manufacturer are usually fairly accurate.

    I use HWMonitor most of the time, not always accurate with some CPUs and motherboards, but it's good for fine tuning the fans. http://www.cpuid.com/hwmonitor.php

    One last and obvious item, the higher the room air temp, the higher the computer temps. My place has the AC set at 80F (27C), you won't likely see case temps lower than 27C very often in that case. But some of mine stay about 30C.

    Hope that gives you some useful information. And all this is just generalizations. I found with one PC that if I blocked up all the extra air grills and miscellaneous openings and just left open the front intake and rear exhaust, I got a 5C drop in case temperatures. The side vents were disrupting the case air flow. With them blocked, I got a higher velocity air flow and it carried the heat away better. Many cases are really poorly designed for cooling.
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  4. Member Seeker47's Avatar
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    Redwudz, thanks a lot for your detailed reply.

    Originally Posted by redwudz
    It's not uncommon to have CPU temps in the low 60C range under 100% load. Not good, but not harmful. It really depends a lot on the CPU, then, of course, the CPU cooler, the thermal compound used, and the internal case temps. If your temps are in the 60C range at idle and you are using a stock cooler, I would definitely upgrade it.
    Very little room for modification -- figuratively and literally -- as this is another sff Shuttle box (a later model than the one in my profile, but less bleeding edge than some of their current models), and they are both compact, proprietary designs. For example, they use the ICE heatpipe system -- no room at all for an additional cpu cooler. There is still one available PCI slot, and about the only thing I might be able to do is to put a slot fan card in there, although I did have other plans for the use of that slot.

    Originally Posted by redwudz
    A system with good cooling may have idle temps in the 25 - 35C range. Sometimes lower, depending on your set up. Full load would be 35 - 45C. Most CPUs will have problems above 70C and may ramp down the CPU speed or just shut down the computer. And your thermal paste may 'wear out' faster.
    . . .
    If you are using air cooling, you have to move air through the case. Intake and exhaust fans do that. The more air movement, the better the heat will be pulled away from the components. Lots of air movement usually comes with lots of fan noise. It's a balance.
    . . .
    The case exhaust should be warm if it's pulling heat from the case. Most of mine have exhaust temps in the 30 - 35C range, a bit more under load.
    . . .
    The temperatures on the BIOS page will give you the most accurate software reading. But during BIOS, the fan controls are not working, so it will show a bit higher most times. Temperature reading programs from the motherboard manufacturer are usually fairly accurate.
    . . .
    I found with one PC that if I blocked up all the extra air grills and miscellaneous openings and just left open the front intake and rear exhaust, I got a 5C drop in case temperatures. The side vents were disrupting the case air flow.
    So far, the only readings I have taken were from the BIOS page, and I think they were showing the cpu at around 60C, at idle. That was with the box as delivered and already set up. I think the fans had been set to the lowest setting, for minimizing noise. I bumped them up a notch in the settings, which did not increase the noise noticeably, but haven't checked what difference it made.

    I still have a whole lot of setup to do in regard to OSes (multiple), installing apps, possibly a hardware change or two, like adding a second HDD, and have not taken any readings with the infrared thermometer yet. There are side vents on this case. I'll continue referring to this thread (and the other one mentioned), as I work on getting this box ready for prime time.
    When in Las Vegas, don't miss the Pinball Hall of Fame Museum http://www.pinballmuseum.org/ -- with over 150 tables from 6+ decades of this quintessentially American art form.
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  5. Mod Neophyte redwudz's Avatar
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    I have a Intel Mini-ITX motherboard I use for a bedroom HTPC. The MB manual says the CPU can run at 70C or a bit higher with no problem. But I did add a case fan. Some CPUs are rated for higher temps. These Intel Mini-ITX MBs are commonly used in industrial settings where the conditions may be a bit more harsh. They also have a model with no fan on the CPU. It can run even hotter and apparently no problem.

    A link to my Mini-ITX project:
    https://forum.videohelp.com/topic349524.html?highlight=miniitx

    But your average desktop CPU will be stressed at 70C. A simple way to check CPU temps; Just put your finger on the base of the heatsink, nearest the CPU. If it's hot enough to burn your finger, it probably needs better cooling. Even when I have a CPU reporting 55C, the heatsink isn't that hot. I'm a bit distrustful of software temperature reading programs.
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  6. Member Seeker47's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by redwudz
    I have a Intel Mini-ITX motherboard I use for a bedroom HTPC. The MB manual says the CPU can run at 70C or a bit higher with no problem.

    But your average desktop CPU will be stressed at 70C. A simple way to check CPU temps; Just put your finger on the base of the heatsink, nearest the CPU. If it's hot enough to burn your finger, it probably needs better cooling. Even when I have a CPU reporting 55C, the heatsink isn't that hot.
    I have doubts that I could even get at the heatsink to touch it: too much other stuff in the way that can't be moved without a partial disassembly. (Probably a similar situation with your HTPC. The real estate is pretty tight in there !) But I should be able to point that infrared thermometer right at it.
    When in Las Vegas, don't miss the Pinball Hall of Fame Museum http://www.pinballmuseum.org/ -- with over 150 tables from 6+ decades of this quintessentially American art form.
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  7. Mod Neophyte redwudz's Avatar
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    One tip about a infrared thermometer, they work best on dull dark surfaces, very shiny or chromed surfaces are difficult to get correct readings from, though heatsinks are not a problem. I also use mine to check oven temperatures, air conditioning temps, power supply exhaust temps and a lot of other temperatures.

    We used them to check bearing temperatures on trucks and conveyors and brake drum temperatures in one of our shops. They're a very handy tool to have. The more expensive ones have a laser pointer included, so you can see exactly where the reading is taken. The surface temperature of a heatsink will always be lower than the PCs reported temperature of the actual device, but that may also give you a hint as to the efficiency of the heatsink and the thermal compound used.

    Software read case temps are taken from the surface of the motherboard and are not usually the actual air temp within the case. But the exhaust fan temp should be fairly close to the case temp.

    The main thing to consider in air PC cooling is efficient air movement and exchange. Since the air flow is there to carry away heat, the more air you can move through the case, the better. I like one large intake fan blowing in from the front and two large exhaust fans blowing out from the rear. With most power supplies, they already have a exhaust fan which carries away some of the heat, and an additional large exhaust fan should work fairly well.

    The two exhaust fans should create a slight vacuum in the case and increase air velocity. You can test the efficiency of this by taking the side cover off the PC. With a well designed cooling system, the internal temps should go up a little. If they go down a lot, then your fans aren't working very well. I've gotten improved cooling by plugging up extra holes in some cases so just the fans intakes and exhausts are the only route for case cooling air. That tends to increase the internal air velocity.

    One downside to increased air flow is increased dust intake. A good case will have a large, easy to clean filter over the front intake fan to keep dust from being sucked into the case itself. If you monitor case temps, you can tell if it needs cleaning. If you have a dust problem, move your PC higher up. The floor level has the most dust. If you do need to have it on the floor, put it on a stand to space it about one foot above the floor and you will have a lot less dust on the filters.

    If you do need to blow out internal dust, do it outside and wear a particle mask. You don't want to be breathing the accumulated dust, skin cells, pet dander, pollen, and other nasty stuff that accumulates there.
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  8. Member Seeker47's Avatar
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    Redwudz,

    Thanx for the info.

    I just bumped up the BIOS fan settings: from Low (noise minimizing) on the CPU to Mid, and from Low to Mid on the case fan. (The video card has its own fan, which figures in here somewhere, but that fan has its own non-changeable speed. I think there must also be PSU-out fans, which are not controlled by the BIOS.) The "CPU fan" can't be much of a factor, noise-wise. I couldn't even tell you where it is, because it ain't directly on the CPU -- the ICE heatpipe assembly is there. But I know it must exist, because the BIOS tells me what rpm it is spinning at, and that is probably not some phantom number coming in from nowhere. I think it is mainly the system case fan that accounts for the fan noise. After the setting change, it became right on the borderline of objectionable. Many would say it went over the line. I'm not sure if I'm going to leave it this way. The system had been very quiet. Based on this increase in db, I'd hate to hear what the High setting would be. Jet engine ? And this is just a small HTPC-size box ! On a Mid Tower or Tower, you can spend some money and add acoustic paneling inside, to mitigate much of this.

    One thing I can tell you: the air coming out of this thing has cooled noticeably over what it was. I don't know what the temp reads on it will be now, but I'll be curious to find out.
    When in Las Vegas, don't miss the Pinball Hall of Fame Museum http://www.pinballmuseum.org/ -- with over 150 tables from 6+ decades of this quintessentially American art form.
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  9. Mod Neophyte redwudz's Avatar
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    If your case temperature isn't high, look into some lower speed (quieter) fans. I use some of the 120mm Enermax case fans, about 17db, or virtually silent, and they still move enough air. From experience, fans that run over 4000RPM will be irritating. Small fans like that at 5000RPM+ will remind you of mosquitoes.

    Fans that are rated below 20db are fairly quiet. Some Enermax fans:
    http://www.newegg.com/Product/ProductList.aspx?Submit=ENE&N=2010110573%2050001400&name=Enermax

    A 120mm fan turning at 800RPM will be very quiet. The 'rule' is; If you have a lot of heat, you need more fans and more noise. With many of the newer 'low power' CPUs, not so much heat and not so much airflow needed.

    Depending on the motherboard, you may also be able to use 'Cool and Quiet' or similar programs in BIOS and in the OS. They will moderate the fan speeds, and sometimes the CPU speed and voltages, to run the PC in 'quiet' mode most of the time. When you are doing CPU intensive operations like encoding, they will ramp up the CPU, voltages and fan speeds, and it may get a bit louder. But for most operations, it will run quiet.

    PWM (Pulse Width Modulated) fans also can be very quiet. The BIOS can adjust the fan speed 'on the fly' to exactly what's needed for cooling, from zero to full RPM. They are also very energy efficient. They do require a four pin fan header, but that's common on newer motherboards.
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  10. Thanks for the link to HWMonitor. I think I'll dump SpeedFan in favor of HWMonitor.
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  11. Member Seeker47's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by redwudz
    If your case temperature isn't high, look into some lower speed (quieter) fans. I use some of the 120mm Enermax case fans, about 17db, or virtually silent, and they still move enough air.

    A 120mm fan turning at 800RPM will be very quiet. The 'rule' is; If you have a lot of heat, you need more fans and more noise. With many of the newer 'low power' CPUs, not so much heat and not so much airflow needed.

    Depending on the motherboard, you may also be able to use 'Cool and Quiet' or similar programs in BIOS and in the OS. They will moderate the fan speeds, and sometimes the CPU speed and voltages, to run the PC in 'quiet' mode most of the time. When you are doing CPU intensive operations like encoding, they will ramp up the CPU, voltages and fan speeds, and it may get a bit louder. But for most operations, it will run quiet.

    PWM (Pulse Width Modulated) fans also can be very quiet. They do require a four pin fan header, but that's common on newer motherboards.
    That may be more applicable for the tower. I believe the case fan in this thing is 92mm. (Which would also be the size that will fit.) This is a 2006 / 2007 model. There are a couple 60mm. fans at the back, which must belong to the PSU. As to the four pin fan header, the MB I will be using when I overhaul the tower is of similar vintage, and so may not have it either.

    In this SFF box I'm working on now, I noticed that there are BIOS settings for 40, 50, and 60 degree target temps. That would seem to be the "smart fan" controls you were speaking of. I will try those to see if it reduces how often the noise level ramps up to the current level. Right now there is just one constant fan speed.
    When in Las Vegas, don't miss the Pinball Hall of Fame Museum http://www.pinballmuseum.org/ -- with over 150 tables from 6+ decades of this quintessentially American art form.
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  12. Mod Neophyte redwudz's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Seeker47
    In this SFF box I'm working on now, I noticed that there are BIOS settings for 40, 50, and 60 degree target temps.
    Possibly. But those type of settings are sometimes warning buzzer settings for the CPU temp. But give them a try. Some MBs have some fairly advanced settings for fan controls, where you can set the 'curve' of the fan speed response. But if this is a older MB, it may just have basic settings.

    If your CPU and case temps are low enough, you could also add a fan speed controller. Some are fairly small, about a 1/2" square by two inches long and you can put them about anywhere in line with the fan power lead. Some have a front panel faceplate, where you can adjust the fan speeds and read the temps with included thermal probes. Since the newer motherboard and BIOS fan controls (And software controls) continue to be improved, those fan controllers aren't as popular, but should still be easy to find.
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    My main case mostly pulls out cool air because the fan in front and on the side have already cooled it by the time it reaches the rear of the case 12 inches away. It sucks in, it doesn't just try to push out.
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