Questions about HDMI receivers

[yoda313]

Ok I'm tinkering with the notion of one day upgrading to a HDMI surround sound receiver. This is not by any means an immediate purchase. This is just a "evenutality".

My first and most pressing question is this:

How and is there a hdmi passthrough feature?

In detail when you send the hdmi from say a ps3 or hd dvr to the surround hdmi amp and then to the tv does the amp have to be on? Can you leave the amp off and still watch the hdmi output on the tv itself?

The reason I ask is sometimes if your watching a run of the mill historical documentary or the local news, etc, you don't generally watch with the stereo on. I at least watch that stuff through the tv speakers. Now if you are doing hdmi and have it sent to a hdmi stereo first than outputted to the tv does the amp have to be on to use the hdmi source?

[gshelley61]

My JVC HDMI receiver has to be on... it is an active switcher/processor so it does not simply pass through the HDMI signal on to the TV.

[yoda313]

Ouch that is not good to me.

Do they make y splitters for hdmi these days? I suppose one alternative is to hook up analog rca cables to the tv. That would only be for the cable dvr though. I'd probably want the ps3 on through the amp most of the time anyway. Though I do like to just play with tv speakers and not surround sound often enough.

Doesn't that increase the wear and tear on the receiver if you HAVE to have it on for any hdmi source regardless if you want surround sound or not?


I do have another question.

Do all hdmi receivers have dolby pro logic 2? I got my 5.1 receiver a few months before pro logic 2 became standard five years ago or whenever it really became "standard".

Also I would want a model with at least three fiber optic inputs. How standard is it for hdmi models to have multiple fiber optic inputs?

[redwudz]

This probably doesn't answer any of your questions, but I'm setting up my video projector for HDMI display. It has no audio inputs. I have a four input HDMI switcher for my source video inputs; A computer and two DVD changers.

For optical audio, I'm using a component video switcher that also has optical switching. ( I already had this) The component part will not be used. My surround sound amp has no HDMI inputs and only one optical audio in. It will make it a bit of a pain to select each set of HDMI and optical inputs, but I have a programmable remote I should be able to set up to control both switchers and not have to use separate remotes.

There may be switchers that have HDMI and optical, but since HDMI includes audio, seems unlikely. And I'm not going to replace my surround sound amp just to simplify things as it works fine as is.

BTW, I got my switchers and cables at MonoPrice. They do have some HDMI/DVI splitters. http://www.monoprice.com/home/index.asp

[jagabo]

The HDCP/HDMI copy protection racket has totally fucked up A/V routing. The big "advantage" of HDMI, one cable for audio and video, what could have been a big simplification for A/V routing, is a terrible mess.

The simplest solution could have been to run HDMI from all the devices to the TV, then digital audio from the TV to the receiver. That way you would have the option of using the receiver only when you wanted to. But no, HDCP rules don't allow the TV to pass multichannel audio to the receiver. It has to be downsampled to stereo.

You have to use a mix of HDMI, analog audio, coax/optical digital audio, etc. Many devices won't output coax/optical audio and HDMI audio at the same time. You have to pick one or the other via their setup menus. It's a terribe PITA.

[edDV]

This will all get more complicated if and when the broadcast flag is voted in by Congress and when Blu-Ray goes full HDCP. I'm waiting to replace my audio receiver until I can get an HDCP certified one with a full HDMI router inside.

[yoda313]

@ eddv - that was another question I'd been meaning to bring up. Is there a real "drop dead" date for the hdcp activation?

Also for the ps3 would that mean the fiber optic output would be disabled for 5.1 audio with hdcp activation for bluray titles? That is how I get surround sound now - 5.1 audio through fiber optic then hdmi video to the tv. Is that what will happen with the hdcp activation? Requiring multichannel audio only through certified hdmi devices?

[jagabo]

Is there a real "drop dead" date for the hdcp activation?

In a sense, the date has already passed. All AACS sources (HD-DVD, Blu-Ray) already require HDCP for HDMI connections. Most cable and satellite boxes require HDCP for HDMI connections. Even most upscaling DVD players will not upscale to analog outputs and require HDCP for the HDMI connection.

The AACS spec requires that no device manufactured after 2011 output HD video over an analog connection. Devices manufactured after 2013 aren't allowed to output analog video at all. When I last read the spec it was less clear regarding audio. But I suspect audio will follow video -- no analog outputs and no unecrypted digital outputs after 2011/2013.

[yoda313]

But I suspect audio will follow video -- no analog outputs and no unecrypted digital outputs after 2011/2013.

Well at least if those are "hard" deadlines we have some time left. I'm glad basic hdmi receivers are now as low as 200.00 new. That makes upgrading a little easier to stomach.

The audio barrier is the last "high def" hardware I need to address. That will most likely be the last major upgrade I do until I go for a 1080p tv. That won't be awhile either.

[edDV]

@ eddv - that was another question I'd been meaning to bring up. Is there a real "drop dead" date for the hdcp activation?

Also for the ps3 would that mean the fiber optic output would be disabled for 5.1 audio with hdcp activation for bluray titles? That is how I get surround sound now - 5.1 audio through fiber optic then hdmi video to the tv. Is that what will happen with the hdcp activation? Requiring multichannel audio only through certified hdmi devices?

Once the HDCP noose is tightened they have full control. The key concept to understand here is all outputs are inhibited unless allowed by the HDCP connection. Default control is with the sender. We tend to think of copy protection as an inhibitor of data flow. The new model is everything is blocked and the sender decides what is passed. Meet big brother*.


* Ref: George Orwell novel 1984 which all should to read for background. This is getting serious.

[edDV]

But I suspect audio will follow video -- no analog outputs and no unecrypted digital outputs after 2011/2013.

Well at least if those are "hard" deadlines we have some time left. I'm glad basic hdmi receivers are now as low as 200.00 new. That makes upgrading a little easier to stomach.

The audio barrier is the last "high def" hardware I need to address. That will most likely be the last major upgrade I do until I go for a 1080p tv. That won't be awhile either.

Don't assume. Most of the current HDMI audio receivers **Do Not** allow audio stripping from protected HDCP. That means the signal is or is not passed to an HDTV with valid key but the audio receiver either can't strip the audio or it is limited to stereo.

I've been searching for audio receiver reviews that address HDCP performance. They just don't talk about this which is a bad sign.

I was told by an surround guru at a Fry's event that the current crop of HDMI audio receivers are intended for upscale DVD players and initial limited HDCP BluRay only and will not support higher levels of HDCP.

Buyer beware.

[yoda313]

@eddv - so it seems like in the case of hdmi receivers we are better off waiting for the hdcp issue to clear up before commiting. Thanks for the insights.

[jagabo]

For now, most DVD players and cable boxes allow multichannel digital audio to pass to either the HDMI port or an unencrypted coax or optical port. I run HDMI from my cable box, DVD player, and computer to the HDTV. But only for video. I route audio via SPDIF or optical to a reciever (which doesn't have HDMI).

Fortunately, the cable box outputs analog stereo via its RCA ports all the time. I have that routed directly to the HDTV so for casual viewing I don't have to power up the receiver.

[RickA]

Greets,

Thanks all for an interesting thread. It has answered some questions I have been pondering for a little while - for upgrade planning purposes. Especially the bit from jagabo about 'HDCP rules don't allow the TV to pass multichannel audio to the receiver.' So much for the 'one HDMI cable for all your A/V needs' bit. Ya still need to run a seperate connection from HTPC to (HD)TV as well as to audio sound system. A most chilling HDCP (and beyond) Orwell reference by edDV and jagabo with the ending of unencrypted analog and digital outputs by 2011/13.

Cheers,
Rick

[jagabo]

AACS references:

http://www.aacsla.com/support/

See the AACS Interim Adopter Agreement.pdf

http://www.aacsla.com/support/AACS_Interim_Adopter_Agrmt_080626.pdf

See Section 1.7 Analog Sunset.