Encoding process I need opinions

[neftv]

Is it best to stay in 4.2.2. or is 4.2.0. ok? I notice the slight difference myself on a scope and by eye but I had a average person look at a short peice I did and she really didnt see any difference.
I work in a place that captures from Mini DV to Final Cut pro via firewire to a G5 as I understand it MiniDV is 4.2.0. Then is we take the FC file DV AVI and convert to MPEG 2 for the playout system. Alternately, I have another two PC systems that take Beta SP and through a MiniDV deck to 1394 into the PC using Ulead. The other PC uses Roxio software and it have the Turtle BEach PCI card. This where I see the difference in chroma between Mpeg2 derived from Turtle Beach and the other from 1394 and the Turtle Beach I think ends up doing 4.2.2.
I looking for any opinions on this. Thanks.

[edDV]

Is it best to stay in 4.2.2. or is 4.2.0. ok? I notice the slight difference myself on a scope and by eye but I had a average person look at a short peice I did and she really didnt see any difference.
I work in a place that captures from Mini DV to Final Cut pro via firewire to a G5 as I understand it MiniDV is 4.2.0.

I'm a bit confused. What is your source?

Digital Betacam is 4:2:2
NTSC MiniDv and DVDCPro (PAL and NTSC)* are 4:1:1
PAL MiniDV and DVD (PAL and NTSC)* are 4:2:0

*By "PAL" I mean 720x576/25i. By NTSC I meant 720x480/29.97i. There is no actual PAL or NTSC modulated subcarrier in any of this.

Then is we take the FC file DV AVI and convert to MPEG 2 for the playout system. Alternately, I have another two PC systems that take Beta SP and through a MiniDV deck to 1394 into the PC using Ulead.

Explain more. DV is DV.

The other PC uses Roxio software and it have the Turtle BEach PCI card. This where I see the difference in chroma between Mpeg2 derived from Turtle Beach and the other from 1394 and the Turtle Beach I think ends up doing 4.2.2.
I looking for any opinions on this. Thanks.

Roxio and Turtle Beach are consumer level and have no professional reputation. This would require testing.

[neftv]

Sorry What I was talking about the source as MiniDv.

Alot of footage is in MiniDV on the production side and Final Cut Pro is what is used.
On the existing Beta SP programs we use the PC systems I discribed. As it is now I do see a difference of the TurtleBeach being better in quality than going MiniDV into 1394 to PC Ulead.

I guess what I am getting at is this way really the non-professional reputation way?
I trying to get them to get away from Beta SP but there is so much that needs to get converted to MPEG 2 as needed for the playout system.
What is the better quality way to go without real huge budget? Would Color correctors work ok for the Beta SP converts to Mpeg and is MiniDV the best way for getting material. This really is meant for Broadcast.

[edDV]

Sorry What I was talking about the source as MiniDv.

Alot of footage is in MiniDV on the production side and Final Cut Pro is what is used.

Good. If you keep it DV format, it will be 1st generation to the MPeg2 encoder except for pixels exposed to filters or efffects.

On the existing Beta SP programs we use the PC systems I discribed. As it is now I do see a difference of the TurtleBeach being better in quality than going MiniDV into 1394 to PC Ulead.

I'm not totally following the SP capture path.

"I have another two PC systems that take Beta SP and through a MiniDV deck to 1394 into the PC using Ulead."

So Y, U, V BNC connectors into a deck and IEEE-1394 out to a PC running a ULead program?
Big issue here is getting black levels right. 4:1:1 is adequate for Betacam SP.
http://pro.jvc.com/pro/attributes/prodv/clips/blacksetup/JVC_DEMO.swf

I guess what I am getting at is this way really the non-professional reputation way?
I trying to get them to get away from Beta SP but there is so much that needs to get converted to MPEG 2 as needed for the playout system.
What is the better quality way to go without real huge budget? Would Color correctors work ok for the Beta SP converts to Mpeg and is MiniDV the best way for getting material. This really is meant for Broadcast.

OK new info. Is the SP -> Mpeg2 intended for DVD or SD Broadcast? If the latter, will it be edited together with with true 4:2:2 material?

If DVD, which encoder are you using?

Some reference reading:
http://www.lafcpug.org/Tutorials/basic_chroma_sample.html

[neftv]

Thanks for the links.
I will try to explain this again.
For Post things are shot on Mini DV
the end up editing into Final Cut Pro HD. We not using HD format now.
When those things get edited they end up getting converted to MPEG 2 from the DV-AVI using Main Concepts.

For pre existing tapes which are on Betacam SP and Digital Satellite feeds which are analog outputs those get injested to several workstations to make the MPEG2. Two of them using an AG DV1000 to bring in to 1394 in the PC to ULEAD.
THe other one PC I have the Turtle BEach PCI card and that is using the Roxio software as its less Processor hungry compared to ULEAD above.
Both the MiniDV and the Turtle use composite inputs. I try to encoder everything at 6mbps CBR.
So I was wondering where any improvements can be made? I know that the Betacam SP is probably the weakest format here. In my testing and using just a waveform/vectorscope I see that the chroma levels are more identical to the tape with the turtlebeach than having the MiniDV deck as the convertor via 1394.
To answer the other questions DVD are made from Roxio most of the time and I think they store the MPEG2 as data files too.

[edDV]

Thanks for the links.
I will try to explain this again.
For Post things are shot on Mini DV
the end up editing into Final Cut Pro HD. We not using HD format now.
When those things get edited they end up getting converted to MPEG 2 from the DV-AVI using Main Concepts.

This is a good solution and is inexpensive.

For pre existing tapes which are on Betacam SP and Digital Satellite feeds which are analog outputs those get injested to several workstations to make the MPEG2. Two of them using an AG DV1000 to bring in to 1394 in the PC to ULEAD.
THe other one PC I have the Turtle BEach PCI card and that is using the Roxio software as its less Processor hungry compared to ULEAD above.
Both the MiniDV and the Turtle use composite inputs. I try to encoder everything at 6mbps CBR.
So I was wondering where any improvements can be made? I know that the Betacam SP is probably the weakest format here. In my testing and using just a waveform/vectorscope I see that the chroma levels are more identical to the tape with the turtlebeach than having the MiniDV deck as the convertor via 1394.
To answer the other questions DVD are made from Roxio most of the time and I think they store the MPEG2 as data files too.

The weak link here is dropping to composite NTSC for the transfer. Betacam SP format is component YUV on tape. If the original material came from a Betacam SP camcorder, the material is native component. If the original material was NTSC composite, it has already been decoded to YUV components before recording to tape.

You will get better quality capturing component video off the Betacam SP decks. Here are some solutions.

1. A low cost solution (~$1400) is the Canopus ADVC-500. It will convert YUV and balanced audio from the Betacam SP deck to DV format over IEEE-1394.
http://www.canopus.com/products/ADVC500/index.php

2. The Canopus ADVC-700 (~$1900) adds RS-422 deck control and time code edit interface.
http://www.canopus.com/products/ADVC700/index.php

3. It is also possible to capture Betacam SP to uncompressed SDI (SMPTE 259M-C) but that appears to be overkill for your needs. If you wanted to go this route, look at these products.

AJA Kona (for Mac) or
http://www.aja.com/html/products_macintosh_kona_LSe.html

AJA XENA (for Windows) or
http://www.aja.com/html/products_windows.html

BlackMagic Decklink Series
http://www.blackmagic-design.com/products/sd/

[neftv]

Actually I did have a Canopus ADVC-300 in house but I could not get Windows XP SP2 to recognize the driver for it. I was on the phone with Canopus tech support tried a few things and they ended up being baffled by it as it didnt change. What would end up happening is the driver for the canopus would just disappear and the captures would fail. So I sent the thing back to Vendor as I was not willing to be a guinea pig to figure it out for them.
Do you have another suggestion?

[edDV]

Actually I did have a Canopus ADVC-300 in house but I could not get Windows XP SP2 to recognize the driver for it. I was on the phone with Canopus tech support tried a few things and they ended up being baffled by it as it didnt change. What would end up happening is the driver for the canopus would just disappear and the captures would fail. So I sent the thing back to Vendor as I was not willing to be a guinea pig to figure it out for them.
Do you have another suggestion?

The ADVC-300 doesn't input Betacam SP components. You would be stuck with S-video or composite (depending on your Betacam Deck). Quality would be greater with the ADVC-500/700.

These devices don't use drivers for OSX Mac or XP Win. They are supported in the OS in the same way as a DV camcorder.

The ADVC 300/500/700 have additional control software that runs on the XP or Mac but most functions can also be controlled manually with buttons.

[neftv]

These devices don't use drivers for OSX Mac or XP Win. They are supported in the OS in the same way as a DV camcorder..

That is exactly where the problem began. Win XP SP2 does not support the 300 when I had one in my hands. The manufacturer told me that just Win XP (before SP update) will support the 300 and they had me revert back to the drivers just win XP had and I still have the same problem. Sure the 300 gets recognized as a DV device but it would disappear. What I mean is that I would be encoding in ULEAD and right while it was encoding ULEAD lost the connection to the 300 and the encode would just stop. They told me that is not suppose to happen and to call them back as it was late in the day. I could not waste anymore time on this so I sent the 300 back and got the money back. I guess everyone's milage varies on this but that was my experience. That is why I am asking for another suggestion.

[edDV]

I never heard of that one. I've only played with a ADVC-300 for an hour or so. My ADVC-100 has been rock solid. But what you need for better quality Betacam SP transfer is the ADVC-500 or 700.

[BJ_M]

another option is the Laird BlueFlame Pro LTM - 5500 , i have one of these and the quality is very good .....

[neftv]

How would I have Beta SP component, MiniDv firewire into one of the transcoders mentioned and have the output of the transcoder going firewire to a PC or MAC? This is without changing firewire cables all the time.
Would the Canopus serve the purpose better than the Laird in this manner?
I did look at the specs. Canopus has 6 pin (which scares me that it would have the voltage) and 4 pin.
Thanks for replying.

[Nelson37]

Just a thought on the disappearing Canopus, the only time I have seen anything similar was with a defective or poor quality firewire card. They are cheap enough and worth having around, anyway. Try an adaptec, they never fail to work properly.

Sounds like that device or something similar might be your best solution.

[edDV]

How would I have Beta SP component, MiniDv firewire into one of the transcoders mentioned and have the output of the transcoder going firewire to a PC or MAC? This is without changing firewire cables all the time.
Would the Canopus serve the purpose better than the Laird in this manner?

If you look at the specs, the ADVC-700 has two firewire outputs, a 4 pin and a 6 pin. I'll let you look at the specs of the similar Laird box. I feed two compters off my ADVC-100 with no problems.

I did look at the specs. Canopus has 6 pin (which scares me that it would have the voltage) and 4 pin.
Thanks for replying.

What is your concern here? Everthing works the same with 6 or 4 pin. Just match the connectors when you buy cables.