The VCD vs SVCD argument. Why everyone is partialy wrong! :)

[Trenton_Net]

Hey guys

I know a lot of people here have been arguing this VCD VS SVCD thing for a long time. I know most people already know that SVCD is a newer version of VCD. And while most people seem to agree that SVCD has much higher quality, most seem to attack SVCD's as being not popular because they aren’t playable on a lot of DVD players, and many features usually don't work etc.

Well, to be quite honest, SVCD/VCD's are very popular in China because these formats were designed for Chinese people. If I go anyplace in China, and get a SVCD player, it will play SVCDs and VCDs perfectly, all the functions such as turning Chinese subtitles on/off, changing language tracks, etc all work perfectly for SVCDs.

The only reason people seem to think otherwise is because they are trying to play these disks on US DVD players. They were meant for the US DVD formatted disks, not SVCD disks. In fact most go out of their way to NOT print anything related to SVCD on it, and do not claim compatibility. This is the opposite in china where players are 100% SVCD/VCD compliant, and INSTEAD do DVD thing as the extra "Feature".

If I buy a Chinese SVCD, it looks excellent just like a DVD, and I can turn my Chinese subtitles on and off very easily, and usually they also encode Mandarin/Cantonese sub tracks as well.

And Guess what? As expected it plays perfectly on my Chinese SVCD player! But when you take it to that USA Kid's next door DVD player it doesn’t display subs or even guarantee compatibility! Probably because it was made for US DVD format disks. I doubt most people in general don't even know about Chinese SVCDs. Let alone if their DVD might play it, if not poorly.

I could make the statment that my DVDs play crapy on my SVCD player and can't do all the features it claims to but that dosn't mean DVD is less compatable. It just means It was made for US Systems, and so, how can one expect perfect performance on my chinese player?

It would be pretty ignorent if I just said DVD was crap since it dosn't work on most chinese SVCD players 100%.


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: trenton_net on 2001-08-24 12:37:32 ]</font>

[adam]

Yes svcd is more popular in China and does have better compatibility there but it is a worldwide standard format. It wasnt developed solely for China it just never got much farther then that comercially. The argument that people choose vcds over svcds because of compatibility reasons is a very valid one. As a whole svcds arent as compatible as vcds.

If this poll was conducted on a chinese site with only chinese participants I'm sure svcd whould have scored higher, but I still think vcd would have won.

[kinneera]

I think technically speaking, it is purely a Chinese invention that isn't totally standardized (from an international perspective anyway). I think this has been mentioned before, in the sense that SVCD was created for almost totally political reasons by the last large communist holdout which was bitter about the attitude many western/european nations took when drafting the DVD standard. Something like that anyway...

[thxkid]

My SVCD's play perfectly with great picture quality even on a 52in big screen, you know why?
I and all my family and friends have bought the APEX DVD players which we all know are made in Korea, which is rich in the VCD and SVCD formats.
I have not found a VCD, SVCD, DVD, CD, CD-R, CD-RW or MP3 disc that would play incorrectly in any APEX disc, which are the following, 600a, 660, 500w. I have all types of problems when comes to my US built for sale here only Toshiba 2050, forget about playing SVCD's at all in it.
These Korean built APEX machines even play the new 99min. CD-R's without a glitch.!
So much for Japan built for US sale DVD players.....
Sony, Toshiba, pioneer, JVC, RCA, etc... all better take a look at how all these korean or china built DVD players for $149 to $99 are starting to turn heads in the US market.
My $119 APEX 660 shows as every bit as sharp and clean picture as my more expensive Toshiba 2050 $249.

[Trenton_Net]

I totally agree. SVCDs and VCDs are pretty much Chinese formats, just adopted by some people outside of china who also see the benefits of it.

No offence to any of the excelent people here, but If you want 100% compatibility, go buy DVDs! When YOUR government comes up with as versatile format as VCD/SVCDs for you then you can go criticize them if its incompatible with your players. But its unfair for people to make the argument SVCDs poor because they don't work on your US models. If anything criticize DVDs for not being able to author it easily, or for it not being as dynamic as the Chinese VCD/SVCD system is.

[AntnyMD]

I rather agree with the Apex picture quality ... when I applied the firmware hack to remove region and macrovision to my Apex 500, suddenly VCD playback was clearer, and DVDs were noticeably brighter. I think it put macrovision protection on *everything* not just DVDs.

I still say VCD is overall a better format, even with its shortcomings. SVCD was made for China, yeah, and there are lot of people in China, yeah, but seven-eighths of the worlds population lives *outside* of China, and most of those people have (potentially) greater access to standalone disc players that support VCD2.0. End of story.

[kinneera]

It's not that DVDs are any harder to author, given the features they can provide, but more the fact that the price points on the equipment involved haven't reached a reasonable level for the average consumer. By employing already well-established CD and CD-recording capabilities, the VCD and SVCD formats have proven easier to work with in the status quo, but are by no means more versatile than DVDs. At least DVDs have take the most logical step forward in finally advancing to a media that has a decent amount of storage space, rather than trying to slap creative compression techniques onto the stifingly small space afforded by CDs.

[Trenton_Net]

Uh AntnyMD , when you say other people outside of china are you really just speaking for yourself? China, as well as all the oriental/Asian countries who have adopted VCD/SVCD is actually quite a large number. Mandarin is actually the #1 spoken language in the world, not by geographical distribution, but purely though the mass of Asian countries together. That’s billions.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Trenton_Net on 2001-08-24 13:57:04 ]</font>

[thxkid]

Has anyone ever read why the chinese, koreans, and any other 3rd world country went with the VCD style format over DVD?
I have been, its simply MONEY!! and hollywood wants a ton of it, these countries refused to pay the high fees imposed on DVD's and DVD players.
The only reason DVD player by SONY is twice the price as from APEX is the fees imposed on them, APEX machines has no fees imposed since they are made in China.
Same with a DVD movie vs. the same one on a VCD Format.
Example ..... Castaway DVD $29.99 list, VCD $14.97 List.
Look at lucas, can't buy his star wars movie on DVD until 2003, but get all 4 movies on VCD for $32, legally. These are not bootlegged copies but manufactured by Fox Video themselves.

[kinneera]

Royalties are a part of it, but come on, you do pay for the quality too. I would rather watch any of the movies you mentioned on DVD than standards-compliant VCD. Plus, as production costs come down and the format becomes increasingly popular, costs will drop, as with anything. Contrary to popular belief, pressed DVDs aren't exactly cheap to produce. True mass-production equipment for CDs cost tens of thousands of dollars, much less for DVDs. We're still somewhat in the stage of covering startup costs for a lot of this technology, costs that the creators of VCD and SVCD didn't have to deal with.

[vitualis]

Let's stop the conspiracy theories here.

VCD isn't a Chinese format. It was developed by a number of companies (none of them Chinese) with Philips playing a big part (Philips is European -- ?Dutch).

This format wasn't really taken seriously in the Western world. However, some entrepreneurial people (e.g. C-Cube) in China pushed the format and it became very popular.

Arguably, SVCD IS a Chinese format. The Chinese government wanted a successor to the venerable VCD format and perhaps they wanted a competitor (at least locally) to the then exborbitantly priced DVD system. However, this format isn't some sort of Chinese secret. I has been internationally standardised.

Arugably, the adoption of the SVCD standards in Western DVD players is very poor. But then again, how many people in the West who buy DVD players would ever play a SVCD? These manufacturers can afford to by lazy as they know essentially no one will complain or return a machine for having poor SVCD compliance.

The fact that SVCDs are less compatible than VCDs is an important factor in why VCDs are more popular than SVCDs. However, this isn't the fault of the SVCD standard and has nothing to do with the Chinese government.

Regards.

[HPR]

Interesting and new info although I have been using TMPGEnc(japan?) to make SVCD(china/eu?) for a year. (what is uncleUS contributing with...)

[phat__daddy]

Interesting thread y'all! Very informative.

I guess I'm spoiled with my Apex 660... as I began the mad dash of rip/encode I used VCD, just because it was the first thing I ran across. But once I figured out SVCD encoding (which really isn't any different), I only use VCD's for low-res usenet stuff, cartoons and the like.

In fact, something goofy from one Tmpeg version to the next gave me _whole_movies_ on just one SVCD. Sure, the quality isn't great, but for drama/comedy where eye candy isn't as important, who would rather have a blocky 1150CBR VCD (on two disks) over a nearly 2x resolution VBR SVCD on only one CDR??

Ain't technology grand!

phatdaddy

[Psx]

I can't imagine having a DVD player that can't play SVCD...

[mikecohn]

Trenton_Net, when you say China, you are really just speaking for yourself, not all of China. Don't forget. Why are you engaged in such a silly topic? Obviously you need to purchase a player that plays the media you wish to play. Obviously not every device is made to play everything. I think you just like to hear yourself talk, or in this case see youself posted. You are very funny.



On 2001-08-24 13:55:29, Trenton_Net wrote:
Uh AntnyMD , when you say other people outside of china are you really just speaking for yourself? China, as well as all the oriental/Asian countries who have adopted VCD/SVCD is actually quite a large number. Mandarin is actually the #1 spoken language in the world, not by geographical distribution, but purely though the mass of Asian countries together. That’s billions.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Trenton_Net on 2001-08-24 13:57:04 ]</font>
[/quote]

[speedy]

Very roughly, the "preceived quality" of VCD is short of VHS tape while SVCD falls short of DVD. I think these kind of arguments are silly to begin with. Both formats have a place. For those that have the equiptment try what I've done. Render the exact same source file as a VCD, then again using the same source file render a second copy as SVCD.

Hook up two EXACTLY the same DVD set tops connected to two idential monitors/TV's where you have carefully adjusted color tempature, set same white and black points, brightness, contrast, hue, have properly performed convergence, etc.. Now play both videos side by side and let your eyes tell you what you see. If you don't see a difference between VCD and SVCD don't walk, run to the nearest ophthalmologist.