new REALTIME capture card Mpeg 2 - 8ms VBR

[BUGANNA]

just seen this web page;


http://www.digicams-uk.com/category25_1.htm



this is a realtime MPEG 1 + 2 capture card, at variable bitrates upto 8mbs.

is this the best card of its kind, for the money ?

Ed.

[vcdfreak]

Cool product. Hope review of this product with comparison with Snazzi DVC II can be found in this forum someday.

How about this?

http://www.adstech.com/products/USB_Instant_DVD/intro/USBInstantDVD.asp?pid=USBAV-700

Anyone tried these before???

I am looking for a real-time capture card but still a bit indicisive to make a purchase.

Any help?

[PentaMedia UK]

Hi All

We now have a New card called the Navis Pro which is a Real time Mpeg 1 / 2 encoder & Decoder, If you need more info about this card e-mail me on technical@pentamediaeurope.co.uk or take a look at http://www.pentamedia.com, also PC Pro (www.pcpro.co.uk) has done a Review this mouth in there Mag and on there web site. Also the card does up to 12 Mbps in Mpeg 2
_________________
Regards
David Hopwood
Technical Consultant
PentaMedia (Europe) Ltd. http://www.pentamedia.com(European Driver Download page) http://www.pentamediaeurope.co.uk
PentaMedia (EUROPE) Ltd

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: PentaMedia UK on 2002-01-07 09:19:48 ]</font>

[Anonymous65]

Since there is a limited number of compression chips, C-cube, Streammachine, Winbond and a few more, most of the cards are the same, with almost the same quality. It's a matter of finding one that is not to expensive, and that has some kind of support for driver updates and other help when needed. If you need a lot of hand holding on your PC, go for something you will find in the stores and magazines, and not something that nobody has heard of before. If you're a real techie, give the new a try. The most common mpeg-2 capture cards are:

Dazzle DVCII $300
WinTV PVR $200
ADS Instant DVD $200
PV256 $180

For mpeg-1 only:

Dazzle DVC $200
PV233 $120

For a small review on PV231 and PV256, go to
http://steve.kittelsen.com/pv231
http://steve.kittelsen.com/pv256c

[PentaMedia UK]

The Navis Pro is £189.00(UK Pound)+ VAT (in europe)+ Shipping. The chip set on the Card is iCompression. If you want any more info let me know.



<TABLE BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH=85%><TR><TD><font size=-1>Quote:</font><HR size=1 color=black></TD></TR><TR><TD><FONT SIZE=-1><BLOCKQUOTE>
On 2002-01-07 09:43:26, skittelsen wrote:
Since there is a limited number of compression chips, C-cube, Streammachine, Winbond and a few more, most of the cards are the same, with almost the same quality. It's a matter of finding one that is not to expensive, and that has some kind of support for driver updates and other help when needed. If you need a lot of hand holding on your PC, go for something you will find in the stores and magazines, and not something that nobody has heard of before. If you're a real techie, give the new a try. The most common mpeg-2 capture cards are:

Dazzle DVCII $300
WinTV PVR $200
ADS Instant DVD $200
PV256 $180

For mpeg-1 only:

Dazzle DVC $200
PV233 $120

For a small review on PV231 and PV256, go to
http://steve.kittelsen.com/pv231
http://steve.kittelsen.com/pv256c


</BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></TD></TR><TR><TD><HR size=1 color=black></TD></TR></TABLE>

[vcdfreak]

Pentamedia, is there a similar review like in this page:

http://steve.kittelsen.com/pv231/

The most important aspect is to compare the encoding result with the most popular free encoding software, TMPGEnc.

[PentaMedia UK]

There is a Basic review in PC Pro (www.pcpro.co.uk) but I am working on a Site my self (its just finding the time)

(p.s we are looking for resellers for our Mpeg cards for more info e-mail technical@pentamediaeurope.co.uk)

[kitty]

Too many gotchas:

No MPEG2 editing software
No dual processor support
Unknown vendor support
No Win XP support

Strange the Pro version is 36 Pounds cheaper than the regular product on the other UK website.

Just what I see, Da Kitty

[PentaMedia UK]

Like All new products there are all ways bugs, we are working on new drivers 1.1 as we speak which should be out in the next two to three weeks, It is full supported and tested with Windows XP (I also have it working under XP on my home PC and work), As for support just e-mail me technical@pentamediaeurope.co.uk, Ummm Dual processor looking into it but cant say at this time. cost of the Navis, the price was from digi cams who show it inc VAT (as far as I know), The price i gave was the navis Pro with out VAT

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: PentaMedia UK on 2002-01-07 10:53:10 ]</font>

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: PentaMedia UK on 2002-01-07 12:26:45 ]</font>

[SHS]

Ok PentaMedia UK
1: Where the TV Tuner
2: Where the Time-Shift recording
3: Where the Schedule
4: Where the MPEG2 editor
5: What this no AVI capturing
6: Where the MPEG2 Sample?, I like see some sample VCD, SVCD, MPEG2-4M, MPEG2-8M.
7: I beat the Hardware Decoder is only done to the Composite/S-Video output rigth being I don't see an VESA Video Interface Port (VIP) so why do you need WinDVD 3.0 if the card come with Hardware Decoder?.

What ever happing this board http://www.bernclare.com/image/pronavis2.jpg

I'am sorry PentaMedia UK but pcpro web site suck I shouldn't have to registered to see a review.

Yes your rigth PentaMedia UK new products always come with some bugs that life needlee to say.

[incognito]

creative labs has a new card out
(comming out?) for about $100 US
that supposedly does realtime mpeg2.

There's a page on their website, and
a report (which sounds a little too good to be
true) in the capture card section

[BUGANNA]

nice to read such good replies to my original query !!!

if the Navis can encode realtime to MPEG-2 at great quality, than that is all the card needs to do in my opinion.

BUT the price should be a LOT lOWER than £ 190 + vat, as ATI have the all-in-wonder card which has tuner, editor, timeshift, 3d accelerator, realtime encoder etc etc for the same price.

As with the ATI, I havent seen any samples of mpeg encoded frames, and the ATI apparently is bug city and quality is not as good as TMPGE software for example.

I think a card like the NAVIS, at a lower price, if bug fixed would sell quickly.

there is a real demand for a quality encoder with high bitrates and affordable priced.

most people at home are just doing this for fun, personal archives etc and although software encoding takes ages, theres no real urge for many people to spend a lot of money just to speed up the process.

Personally i'd buy the Navis, if it was lower priced and bug free. the high CBR + VBR capture appeals to me, also the control of RGB etc is very useful.

Buggs.

[PentaMedia UK]

Hi Buganna

Thanx for the input I have passed it on to the head Office, did you also know that the Navis Pro can Play back the Mpeg Files Via the S - Video / composite port, So this would mean that you could output the Files to a TV or VCR.

[PentaMedia UK]

Hi SHS

Good questions I will see what I can do

1: Where the TV Tuner

There is a NTSC Tuner but dew to Parts, and no end of problems with a PAL tuners etc etc. It was viewed that we should sell the card in Europe with out a pal tuner.

2: Where the Time-Shift recording


3: Where the Schedule

Yep comes with a Schedule program

4: Where the MPEG2 editor

As far as I know it works with Ulead Video, but as you well know it doe not come with a copy, ( sorry that one is out of my control)

5: What this no AVI capturing

No this is down to the chip set, but you can convert the files after by the endless programs out there.

6: Where the MPEG2 Sample?, I like see some sample VCD, SVCD, MPEG2-4M, MPEG2-8M.

I'm working on a website, but if you e-mail me on technical@pentamediaeurope.co.uk I can send you some small clips.

7: I beat the Hardware Decoder is only done to the Composite/S-Video output right being I don't see an VESA Video Interface Port (VIP) so why do you need WinDVD 3.0 if the card come with Hardware Decoder?.

so you can play back all the Mpeg file Via WinDVD in a better quality that Windows Mediaplayer, Also the codec is supplied for mpeg 2 via it, also you can create your own DVD titles using DVD Junior (that comes supplied) and you need a DVD play back prog to view the VCD / SVCD / DVD i,e WinDVD

[loudanddeep]

Ok,
In my opinion, the most important questions:
Does the device:
1 - Compress the audio, and multiplex it in the device?

Or does it do it like 99% of the other cards out there;
2 - compress the video in the device, compress the audio with your host PC sound card, then multiplex them in sofware.

If you do #2, then you better be better or cheaper than your competitors; (ads, dazzle, etc.)
If you do #1, then you have a product which should not suffer from the problems with #2, most notabley A/V synch.

please reply.

Dp

[NeVeRLiFt]

Just get the ATI 8500DV Radeon....

[SHS]

loudanddeep (1 - Compress the audio, and multiplex it in the device?) a lot MPEG capture card do the audio compress in encode in hardware but lot of them don't due the multiplex part, the only mpeg chip I know of that dosen't do audio compress in harhware is Stream Machine chip like the ProVideo PV356/256 MPEG capture card.

Thank PentaMedia UK but I have no use for a PAL Tuner being I live USA anyway so I need NTSC Tuner hehe, Anyway I looking forward to web site win it come on line.
So Then I was rigth it not ture MPEG Decode

[BUGANNA]

wow !

its been a lot of work finding a good realtime encoder, and this is my verdict so far.

TMPG, best software decoder, but takes 10 hours per 1 hour film to encode. also, compared to hardware encoder it is NOWHERE near the quality.

ATI wonder cards: use software encoding, and hardware to capture. not a real hardware encoder, and results are not as good as TMPG software.

Instant USB: havent tried it, but anything on USB bus is going to suffer bottleneck data transfer. Ive tried USB scanners that 'pause' when scanning a miserly A4 sheet at 200dpi b/w ! personally USB is not an option.

creative labs. didnt try it, not sure if theyre out yet, but the card does mpeg 2 but only at 1/2 screen rate and only max 6mbs, according to their spec page. cant see the point of that.

Navis Pro: finally manged to test the card out, and the results are amazing. I didnt expect hardware encoding to be that much better, just obviously hugely quicker, but I was wrong.

using a 4mb CBR encoding rate, the capture from VHS tape was identical, with absolutely none of the blocks, flashes or stripes, that you get even when using TMPG at maximum quality.

another funny thing, is that I also tried capturing at 8mb CBR, but the quality was the same as 4mbs !

I can only conclude that 4mbs is more than sufficient to encode the resolution of VHS quality.

This is excellent news for me, as I can fit over 2 hours of film onto a dvd-r, at 4mbs CBR.

the card also does VBR, but again I didnt see any noticeable difference, and only a slightly smaller file size.

If youre used to using software encoders, try the Navis Pro, there is a world of difference, with this encoder I got professional results, the mpeg 2 quality is like that of commercial DVD films, no blockiness or stripes between scenes, as you get with software encoding.

I also manged to export the encoded file into seperate audio/video streams, using the software it came with.

verdict: try the hardware v software options. the difference is amazing.

Buggs

[next]

Well yes and no on the hardware vs software quality. At least as it relates to consumer level products.

The reason I say both yes and no is because realtime software encoding has come a long way the past year or so. This is becuase a typical home computer has become amazingly powerful and the software support for real time software assisted encoding has improved. In the past real time software assisted encoding was terrible because there was not enough power in the box. Not so today.

Is software assisted real time encoding better than hardware provided encoding? Generally speaking - no. But with a powerful enough box it becomes really tough to see a difference. With an underpowered box forget it -hardware driven real time endoding wins hands down.

[CoCoNiPs]

ATI is NOT capable of hardware encoding!
It is software only!
Im sure!
grr that gets me so mad
When ppl mention hardware encoding cards why do people insist mentioning ATI! %£$%£$^%&%^"$!

[next]

Hey CoCoNips take another pill....make it a Prozac this time.

ATI provides software assisted real time mpeg encoding.

But back to this hardware vs software thing. I remember having to insert a hardware mpeg card in my computer (? - well it was some kind of card))to support the first DVD Rom drive I used (Creative first generation). The drive would not work without it.

That same drive works fine now using a software DVD player on a much more powerful machine - without the card.

My point is that the line between software vs hardware realtime encoding is getting blurred because of the much more powerful computers available to consumers today. When 3ghz machines become commonplace do you really think you are going to need a hardware encoder in order to do 6mps Mpeg2 realtime encodes?

[CoCoNiPs]

yeh yeh blah blah i know that
but right at this moment real time software encoding isn't too great unless u have the very latest cpu $$$
in the future sure
I thought ppl were talkign about the present not the future
Sure one day my computer will be able to clean the house feed the cat mow the lawn and wipe my a$$ but right now I don't think so
)

[Anonymous65]

I have not seen ANY software real-time mpeg compression software that can come close to hardware compression. The Ligos gomotion seems to be the best, but it's night and day between it and a hardware compressor like Streammachine or even C-cube. Now, if you select a bit rate of 8Mb/sec, then a software compressor can do a fairly good job. But try to do 352x480 at 1.8Mb/sec, and a software compressor will look like sh%#!, but a hardware compressed file looks quite good. Hardware compression does more than just compress the data into mpeg, it also does some amazing video pre-processig to reduce noise so the video compresses better. This is critical at low bit rates.

[next]

CoCoNips - Touche! lol I agree.

But its right around the corner. Except the cat and the lawn stuff. These $200 - $300 hardware encoders at the consumer level are in my opinion nothing but toys in brightly colored boxes designed to attract the moment.

Hey I like toys too I guess. But I'm going to limp along at my current level of technology until it's all in the box - cpu cycles I mean. And these increased cpu cycles will not cost any more than the current ones do now. I do great right now with my humble 1.2mhz Athlons with real time software assisted Mpeg2 captures.

Much less to sell on e-bay in a few months that way.

[magicmycote]

Hey BUGANNA, can you post some clips from that Navis so we can have a look?

Also, someone mentioned the PV256 uses software audio compression, is that correct? TIA

[next]

skittelsen - true but we are less than 12 months away from not caring about 1.8 mps. Actually I don't really care about it now. It's simply driven by the limits of CDR's Things get bigger and better from a historical perspective. Just my opinion of course but I think we are really really close right now to things really really going consumer. This may sound crazy but I'm talking dummy proof. The lesson was learned with the VCR clock - really simple stuff on the horizon.

As far as offline encoding goes I think there will be more than enough cpu cycles and software prowess available to make it a quick post capture encode process - all set up prior to the capture or firewire transfer. We are fairly close to a 1:1 ratio right now at 2 ghz on offline encodes with under funded software. Even faster for ripping but that is not my interest.

[PentaMedia UK]

Thanx for the feed back BUGANNA

If you need more info about the Navis Pro our website is http://www.pentamedia.com or e-mail me on technical@pentamediaeurope.com

[BUGANNA]

Mr Next wrote;

>When 3ghz machines become commonplace do you really think >you are going to need a hardware encoder in order to do >6mps Mpeg2 realtime encodes?

?????

I use a 2 ghz P4, scsi drives, and it still takes 10 hours to encode 1 hour AVI file, using highest quality in TMPGE.

so, a 3 ghz PC will do it quickly ?

This is a stupid remark to make, and obviouslyy NEXT doesnt actually do any mpeg encoding at all.

MAYBE a 20 ghz PC will do it quickly !

also, if the encoder cards are 'toys' than theyre toys that still encode to a professional standard compared to software versions.

I hate people who post ignorant remarks, one of the reasons why its so hard to trust people on whats good or bad. they all seem to be advertising ATI boards or something or another.

anyway, the point I was making, was that, much like the previous poster, is that hardware encoder encodes the file in a much different manner than software.

i dont know how or why, but with hardware encoding there absolutley no blockiness between frames. with software I could never achieve a result where it wasnt obvious this was a DIY mpeg file !

The problem with the software method, was not so much the quality of a frame per se, but the 'mess' between frames, showing up as dots, stripes and blocks. every scene change was apparent using TMPGe and all the other software packages.

Think of those commercially available VCD films, and then think of the VCDs you can make with software only encoding.

there were totally blocky right ? in fact, pretty pointless.

yeah, but not so with the hardware encoder. a vcd looks like a vcd. and a dvd like a dvd.

its nothing to do with the power of the PC, its just a question of having dedicated electronics handling just 1 job, as opposed to a whole PC twisting itself up to handle something so complex.

its kind of like why low Ghz Apple computers can perform faster than high speed PC systems. they use dedicated data channels, RISC processors, scsi drives etc

magicmycote wrote:

>Hey BUGANNA, can you post some clips from that Navis so we can have a look?

OK - I have some clips.

how do I upload them to this forum ?

would be interested to hear the remarks of AFTER they watch the clips ! heh heh


buggs.

[next]

BUGANNA - 10 hours on a 2ghz machine to encode one hour of AVI and I'm the one who's ignorant? You are a dinosaur. And what does SCSI have to do with it? The drives are not your bottleneck. If you're working with a 2ghz machine and you're spending 10 hours to encode an hour of AVI then the bottleneck is more likely that blob that resides just above your shoulders.

As far as you never being able to encode a file with no blockiness it doesn't suprise me based on the comments you make. Dots? Stripe? Blocks? You need basic primer on encoding.

I do agree that low bit rate real time encodes require alot of horsepower but that doesn't seem to be your point (edit - I should add that this comment is an agreement with skittelson on low bit rate quality problems associated with real time software encoding - don't want to get flamed). The low bit rate days are very close to being over. Unless you are of ilk that thinks jamming 2 hours of mpeg on a CDR makes sense and you still plan on doing that 3 years from now. Who knows. Somebody who is still working with a 10:1 ratio on AVI to Mpeg conversion with blocks, dots and stripes on a 2ghz machine just might be.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: next on 2002-01-11 07:33:25 ]</font>

[BUGANNA]

Oh dear !

I can see this turining into a battlefield !

>Mr NEXT wrote:

>BUGANNA - 10 hours on a 2ghz machine to encode one hour >of AVI and I'm the one who's ignorant? You are a >dinosaur.


Really ? I didnt realise I was so stupid. I mean, all I did was capture analogue VHS, through a Digital-8 camcorder, creating digital DV (AVI) files on the Pcs hard disk.

I then loaded these files into TMPGE, used CQ at 55 setting, usual DVD standard for audio data, and encoded using 'highest quality' mode.

on my 2 ghz P4, it took over 10 hours to create a Mpeg-2 file.

Ive also tried this on an Athlon 1300mhz, and it took slightly longer.

I must be really stupid though, because even according to TMPGE notes, they state it takes a VERY VERY LONG time to encode.

Of course, If I had a 3 ghz PC, it would have done it instantly. Stupid me. All the other people out there leaving there PCs to encode overnight must also be so stupid.

we all just dont know what were doing.

>And what does SCSI have to do with it? The drives are not >your bottleneck.

sorry, but I was stupid again in fitting my PC with Ultra-2 scsi drives and controller.

I mean, they cost me 4 times as much as an EIDE system, and they dont make any difference.

The fact that they support command queing, are not CPU dependant on data transfer, and do not hold up the data BUS while processing data, is obviously all just a waste of time.

After all, a PC can read and write to and from the same 7200rpm E-IDE drive, just as good as it can from a 10,000rpm Ultra-2 SCSI to another ultra-2 Scsi drive.

Silly me, all these years and I never realised how to use a PC properly.

Who would have guessed that software is just as good as discreet hardware electronics.

When was the last time your TV or Video crashed ?

I bet your TV Tuner and VCR card for PC crashes all the time no ?

Of course, had you actually ever tried to encode any video at all you would know what I and others are talking about.

>As far as you never being able to encode a file with no >blockiness it doesn't suprise me based on the comments >you make. Dots? Stripe? Blocks? You need basic primer on >encoding.

what the @:@: are u talking about ? nobody and I state nobody has ever got a result anywhere near as good as a quality encoder from software.

Obviously you have, cause you know all about basic primers and no-one else does.

>I do agree that low bit rate real time encodes require >alot of horsepower but that doesn't seem to be your >point.

really ? who would have thought that it was the LOW bit rate that was the problem. Guess Ill stick to 12 mbs from now on.


>unless you are of ilk that thinks jamming 2 hours of mpeg >on a CDR makes sense and you still plan on doing that 3 >years from now.

who mentioned CDRs ? Im talking about 4.5 gb DVD-R / RWs.

maybe you thought I was just trying to create some SVCDs or something ? No, im using a Pioneer A03 drive to store over 2 hours of mpeg-2 at DVD resolution.


>Somebody who is still working with a 10:1 ratio on AVI to >Mpeg conversion with blocks, dots and stripes on a 2ghz >machine just might be.

silly me, just because the captured DV-AVI file ' IS ' actually about 10 times larger than a final mpeg-2 file, shouldn't mean that Im working woth 10:1 ratios.

of course not, im just being stupid.

If i had your understanding and knowledge, I dont what I would be doing with a PC in the 1st place.


Buggs.