new REALTIME capture card Mpeg 2 - 8ms VBR

[next]

Buganna - Learn how to read.

Throwing SCSI into your box is not going to improve quality. When was the last time you heard somebody complaing about quality and the advise was to install a SCSI raid configuration and everything will be fine. Dropped frames yes but quality no. If the box has the horsepower to handle the data transfer then the off load as it relates to CPU cycles is meaningless. We are not talking rocket science here and correct me if I'm wrong we're talking like only 6 mps? But hey if you want to take a Lear jet to the corner market then feel free.

As far as your 10 hours to encode I can probably figure out a way to make it 20 hours. So will that be the new base line then? 20 hours to encode one hour of AVI? Sucks doesn't it? Maybe I'll make it 30 hours and make it look really bad. Yup, 30 hours to encode. I think I'll throw some stripes, dots and blocks in there too. It has a sweet sound to it doesn't it? Why 30 hours? Because I said so. Just like your 10 hours.

My 10:1 ratio was a time reference not a size reference.

Once again I'll clarify my comments as it relates to low bit rate quality. I happen to agree with skittleson. Read his post. Real time software encoding at low bit rates leaves alot to be desired. It is not good. But increase the bit rates and the difference becomes very difficult to discern between real time software assisted and real time hardware encodes. Not impossible but difficult.

Your SVCD comments concern me. Something wrong with SVCD? Or are you looking down on the little people now.

Also my comments simply state that this mad push to jam 2 hours onto a CDR will become moot. Guaranteed. You are evidence of this with your DVD resolution and bit rate boast as it relates to SVCD.

Ok now do the math. If the higher bit rate real time software assisted encodes vs hardware encodes are similiar in quality(not identical but similiar - at least for now) and the recording form factor will increase in size (CDR vs DVD)then who needs the hardware assist? And don't say those that want to jam 3 movies onto one DVD to save money. CDRW disks were 15 bucks at one time. Remember?

Now some advise on posting - the next time you start a thread about the Navis make sure that the PentaMedia guy doesn't show up like less than an hour later with a post. I hate using public forums in a cloaked attempt to move units. Buy a banner ad at least and support the site.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: next on 2002-01-11 08:32:57 ]</font>

[BUGANNA]

OK OK OK. I think its time to sperate the men from the boys.

Mr Next,

lets put all the aggression to one side, for a moment, and PLEASE just let me know 1 simple thing.


HOW do you manage to convert a 1-HOUR AVI file to MPEG-2 in LESS than 10 hours, using TMPGE in highest quality mode, at a decent 55 CQ setting ?

PLEASE EXPLAIN !!!!

what software DO YOU use ?
how do you capture your films onto your PC ?
have you ever tried creating a DVD compliant MPEG-2 file ?
if yes, how long did it take you ?

at this point, im VERY interested in your software magic, I note you never actually mentioned how long it takes you ? or what progams you use ?

personally, I think youre just a joker, I doubt if you actually encode anyting at all. you probably just tried it once, with a small file and thought its not worth the bother !

you then presumed, that hardware encoding is rubbish too. have you ever tried a realtime hardware encoder ? and I dont mean a software piggy backed card.

as for your pentamedia dig, well, all I can say is that I had no idea the companies visited this web site, and all I did was to enter a search on the net for encoders, and Navis came up as one of the high spec cards that I hadnt heard about. period.

if you look, youll see that I have posted a few times before, going back several months, enquiring about the best capture methods and DV interfaces.

Besides, Im certain that large companies have a global market at stake, as oppposed to just trying to rub off a couple of their products to people on this forum.

Do you think theyre paying all their staff, overheads, marketing etc etc just to sell 3 or 4 cards onto this fourm ?

get real. and either start explaining your comments in full or just get off this forum.

you havent answered any of the questions I asked you before, no doubt because you dont know.

In not going to waste any more time trying to teach you basic computing facts, but at the same time, it makes no sense for someone like you who is practically a computer beginner, to start shouting how this is good, this is no good, when in fact you never used any of the products.

my comments are based on practical experience, and not just theory.

in fact I searched under this forum, and Ive noted that youve also upset a few other people before with your pig ignorant comments.

OK ? if youre so happy with youre PC software encoding WHY are you reading and posting these posts ?

I was fascinated by hardware encoders, but apart from the NAvis card, all simialr spec products were into the £1,000s price range. thats the reason I queried the Navis in the 1st place, as I wanted to know more about it.

I also previously enquired about the Instant-USB device and also ATI-all-in-wonder cards.

this aint no conspiracy, just people interested in finding out what works and what doesnt.

All Im saying is that the Navis card was a relevation to me, because I never expected the difference to be so huge.

you dont have to buy it or any other card. I just thought it might be of interest to people to know that Ive tried it and its extremely good.

had I know this in the 1st place I wouldnt have bothered to make my original post.

DOES ANYONE ELSE OUT THERE take side with Next ?

Buggs.

[Anonymous65]

Unless DVD-R's become as cheap as CD-R's overnight, I see alot of need of low bitrate video. On one 80 min CD-R you can put 1 hour of 352x480 mpeg-2 video @1650Kb/sec and 128Kb/sec audio. For collecting tons of Star Trek episodes and giving copies away to friends and family, a CD-R becomes the only media you can "throw away" because it's so cheap. Sure, I can't wait for the day a DVD-R cost 50 cents, but that will not happend this year. Until that day, I will have to cram as much video onto a CD-R as I can, meaning getting the best low bitrate compressor available. Just like no hardware or software can beat the PV231 in VCD creation, I'm looking for the same device that will do mpeg-2. It will not be a software compressor, it will surely be a hardware compressor. The day I can record and save a VHS tape at 5Mb/sec, I'll get a standard video card with video in and use a real-time software compressor.

[next]

Buganna - LOL....Cool.

But I think you misunderstand my point. I am not a proponant of off line encoding ie TMPG etc. I actually hate it because of the time involved. But you can get close to 1:1 using CBR vs multipass VBR with the right encoder and the right box. But do I recommend it? No, never have. I think real time is the way to go. And have always said that. And it's all I do. I think this may be your misunderstaning.

My point was that "software assisted real time encoding" stands up well against "real time hardware encoding". Especially with higher powered boxes. With lower powered boxes forget it - hardware wins as I stated in a previous post. Go back and read my first post. That was my only point. Until CoCoNips and skittlesen jumped in - and I agreed with them. I didn't agree with "stupid" and "ignorant" though.

All of these gadgets (I'll use gadgets instead of toys so not to offend) are good things. But I do software assisted real time encoding all the time off of a good source (digital cable) and the results are amazing. Will a Dazzle or etc do better? Maybe but the captures I've seen don't look that much different. Just an opinion though.

If you want to snap a $200 - $300 add on device onto your PC then go for it. I'm sure it will work great. If people have a PC that may not have the power and this device addresses that then great.

[BUGANNA]

WHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAT !!!!!!!!!! ??????????????

after all this spitting and cussing we were both talking about different things ?!!!!!!!

LOL )

why didnt u say brother, I thought u were babbling on about software, as in TMPGE etc etc !!!

no wonder you were suprised about the 10 hour encode time !! you were doing it in realtime after all.

repeat after me " TMPGE IS VERY VERY SLOW " 100 times !


anyway, its all got so confused EVEN I forgot the original point I was making !!!!!!

anyway, if they had stuck to VHS we wouldnt have any of this hassle in the 1st place !! and whats CD all about anyway ? 1st audio, now films ? whats next ?

data ?!!!!

yeah yeah digital encoding quality is great - so what ?

I didnt see a queue of people lining up to buy S-VHS players when they came out ?

Im going back to mono analogue VHS - you can keep all this high tech Navis and Co. cards !

long live VHS.

)


Buggs.

[bigtoe]

Just a little comment from a newby to this forum.
I must agree with next that as cpu speeds have increased the quality of capture by software\hardware cards has also increased.I have both a win pvr and an AIW Radeon and have "played" for 12 months with both.With mmc7.5 and a Athlon @ 1.65gig I can firmly tell you the mpeg2 8mbit D1 capture of the AIW is stunning,far better than the win pvr but the downside is the cpu is running near full chat for the full duration of the cap with no multi tasking.
Im lucky in that I have 2 seperate boxes to play with and then compare them over a home network with a hardware decoder.
My feelings are if you are building a new system a software\hardware card is perfect with a fast cpu and lots of memory.But,if funds are tight then a hardware card on a slower machine will be the way to go, but if you choose the win pvr be prepared for a lot of experimentation b4 you get acceptable results.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: bigtoe on 2002-01-11 17:49:46 ]</font>

[geniv]

from the navis personally I'm just inerested in seeing some VCD,SVCD and DVD samples clips with various amount of motion.

having used serveral mpeg encoders, personally I like to see samples in VCD, because DVD samples clips looks pretty much the same quality, it's the VCD smaples u notice more difference in encoding quality.

in my opinion the PV256 is the best one I tried. if only those damn buggy driver works properly on my machine and still motion scenes looks asgood as the PV233 I'll be in heaven.

[geniv]

from the navis personally I'm just inerested in seeing some VCD,SVCD and DVD samples clips with various amount of motion.

having used serveral mpeg encoders, personally I like to see samples in VCD, because DVD samples clips looks pretty much the same quality, it's the VCD smaples u notice more difference in encoding quality.

in my opinion the PV256 is the best one I tried. if only those damn buggy driver works properly on my machine and still motion scenes looks asgood as the PV233 I'll be in heaven.

[jfebus]

Hi BUGANNA,

Any latest impressions about the Navis Pro capture card?

Regards,

Jose

[BJ_M]

PentaMedia NAVIS-Pro
[PC Pro]

VERDICT: Still buggy, but has massive potential. MPEG-2 capture quality is tremendous and the DVD authoring software is sophisticated. Wait for the next update before buying though.

For many video enthusiasts, the welcome appearance of affordable DVD creation tools still leaves one big obstacle - creating high-quality MPEG video files. Most encoding tools at the consumer and low-end professional level are software solutions that work from large files stored on the hard disk and can take a long time to convert AVI files to MPEG-2 format for authoring. At £189, NAVIS-Pro could be a monumental blessing - an MPEG-1 and MPEG-2 capture card set up to capture video in VCD-, SVCD- and DVD-compliant formats.
The NAVIS PCI card sports standard S-Video and composite video in and out ports, along with 3.5mm jack sockets for audio capture and output. Installation is straightforward and the software bundle includes a capture interface, MPEG demultiplexer, InterVideo's WinDVD software player and DVD authoring software in the form of AuthoringWare's DVD Junior.

The capture interface is straightforward, allowing users to select their capture format. There are specific templates for the rigid standards of VCD and SVCD video, and MPEG-2 capture is at constant or variable bit rates from 2Mbits/sec to 12Mbits/sec. There's no control over audio bit rates, but NAVIS does provide good control over the RGB colour balance, contrast and brightness of incoming video signals. Being an analog card, there's no direct IEEE-1394 input from DV devices or deck control, so the player and capture software must be started manually.

Captured video for VCD and SVCD was good but not exceptional - I've seen better encodes from inexpensive software utilities - but for DVD, video quality was stunning. The card was fed some difficult footage in the form of a concert video with high contrast, camera movement, active subjects, quick cutting and erratic lighting, all of which reproduced beautifully at 8Mbits/sec.

VCD-compliant MPEG-1 and SVCD-compliant MPEG-2 work well with VCD creation tools such as Nero 5 and WinOnCD 3.8, but no such tools are provided with NAVIS-Pro. Using MPEG-2 capture for DVD authoring is a long-winded process. MPEG-2 files need preparation before they can be used in DVD projects. Files as captured are multiplexed at a rate that's not compliant with DVD standards and must be split into their component audio and video elements before they can be used, effectively creating a second copy of the file on the hard drive in two parts. I also noticed that the audio bit rate of 384Kbits/sec, while still being within the parameters of DVD-compliant video, made it incompatible with some consumer authoring tools such as Roxio VideoPack 5. The supplied authoring software DVD Junior has no problem with the audio bit rate. In order to use the MPEG file, however, its audio and video elements must be multiplexed again into a single file with a VOB extension, thus creating another copy of the original capture on the hard disk. That done, DVD Junior gave me a 'corrupt file' error when I tried to access the video. NAVIS and AuthoringWare had expected the supplied DVD player from InterVideo to provide MCI drivers to support MPEG video in DVD Junior. It didn't. A version 1.16D update for DVD Junior solved the problem by interfacing with Windows Media Player.

DVD Junior is an impressive toolkit, providing the means to create menu-driven DVD titles with chapter stops and up to eight audio tracks per video. Unlike most other prosumer authoring tools, it doesn't automatically generate thumbnail icons for links to videos. However, users can import their own graphic files or add text links. There's good control over the files or chapters they link to and how their appearance changes when highlighted or selected by the viewer. DVD Junior can also accept subtitle scripts from external applications, set regional coding and write to DLT if need be. Pioneer's DVR A03 DVD-RW (see Reviews, issue 83, p160) drive and Panasonic's LF-D311 DVD Burner (see Reviews, issue 85, p171) are supported by DVD Junior, but Ricoh and HP DVD+RW drives aren't - an update is promised soon. Finished DVDs looked good but played mute on set-top DVD players due to a 'channel 0' tag imposed on audio tracks during the capture process. This is something PentaMedia must address before NAVIS-Pro can be considered a suitable capture board for DVD authors.

NAVIS-Pro is an immensely promising product, and the picture quality we saw from MPEG-2 capture was excellent. However, despite the obvious potential, there are far too many bugs to make it a worthwhile purchase, even at the relatively low asking price of £189.

Peter Wells

SPECIFICATIONS: PCI MPEG-1 and MPEG-2 encoder/decoder card, S-Video and composite video in and out, stereo line in and out, drivers for Windows 98 SE, ME or 2000 (Professional only) supplied. requirements Pentium III/500, 128Mb of RAM, Ultra/DMA hard disk, DirectDraw-compatible graphics card, one free PCI 2.1 slot.

[SHS]

Well ask if me you be better off getting the WinTV-PVR 250 because you get update from what I have seen so far they havn not made one update in the last 1+year with it.
Navis Pro come with iTVC15 just like WinTV-PVR 250/350 and there a few other out there that are base on the same chipset.

[bbb]

SHS,

Do you work for Hauppauge or get compensated monetarily or with product samples? All you do is hype about the PVR250 (and now the 350). This card is far from perfect due to the buggy software and it's incompatiblity with various motherboards.

If you look at the user ratings, the PVR250 is rated #151 of capture cards. Is that really something to brag about?

A better option is the Vidac VMagic, also real time MPEG 1/2 card and its rated as the #2 card!

[SHS]

No bbb I don't work for hauppauge in fact I don't work for anybody you may as well say I'm retired if likje your then welcome to come over to my house in ohio,usa I don't like any where nere hauppauge, new york where hauppauge is base at.
No incompatiblity with various motherboards you are ref to the wonrg card bbb that was first PVR know as WinTV-PVR PCI.
As for Vidac VMagic PAL only not very useful if live in NTSC part of world which to be bough from Vidac then there S/H oversea which also add to cost and last time I check that a round $500 USA dollar and there one other thing why no BIG hardware site like TechTV, PCworld, etc, etc as review this card other then c't Magazine?.
Vidac VMagic, is not Realtime MPEG1/2 capture card this is a transcode card there is a big diff in the two in the way they work.
Well the software not eye catch perfect software I have been try get this to change but there lot folk out that like WinTV2000 just way it is and dose the dose the job by do thing Vidac will support linux? most like not I so dran get this go for the PVR 250/350 and lot 3rd party support one the SageTV which dran good with my PVR 350 but even it not perfect and beat the Vidac not perfect.
One biggest problem I have seen with people is that they don't know what there doing or there system is all ready a major mess so ened having on heck of time get the WinTV-PVR software to work rigth.
Now as for the Vidac VMagic this would be best transcoding option.