Audio CD anti-piracy efforts continue to rise; could CDDA tr

[AntnyMD]

I found this interesting article on Microsoft's Africana.com this morning.

http://www.africana.com/news-lifestyle/2001/09/13/enter/6956-0765-pat_nytimes.htm

[Branroyal]

yes its called the CS2 CD format. if you have a cd player only, your traditional cd listening experience will not be altered. if you have a DVD player with vcd capabilities, then you can watch video content with menus. pc and mac compatible. theres also a 5.1 dts surround sound spec that can also reside on the disc. this disc currently have 2 patent pendings with it. CD dup towers CANNOT copy this cd! nero, ecc, winoncd,blindwrite,cdrwin all WILL NOT DISC COPY. you can still listen to your songs on your computer but now the CS2 CD give you a reason to go into the store and buy one for yourself. look out within the next month or so for the biggest thing to ever hit the music biz

Will Smash
CEO/Inventor of CS2
Consumer Surround Sound Inc.

[ember]

Some person is gonna find a way to crack it, and it only takes one person to crack and distribute on the net and the same problem continues. Mass spread of illegal mp3 tracks. Then you've got the problem of consumers noticing that the quality of the music on the CD is worse due to so-called hidden "hisses and pops" and the fact that the music has to be recorded at lower quality to enable anti-piracy data to be put on the CD.
Anti-piracy also means investing in research to ensure most makes of CD/DVD-Players can play the new type of CD
Watch out for the flimsier designed CDs that break quickly: not only will you not be able to backup but you'll have to go out and buy a new album in 6 weeks.

Also watch out for the "play once only" tracks appearing in a couple of years. If you wanna play them again you'll have to pay for a new copy.

That's of course if anyone buys the latest pop music....I would recommend looking through your old vinyl collection and listening to the original versions, it's a much cheaper way of going down memory lane.


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: ember on 2001-09-23 11:29:01 ]</font>

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: ember on 2001-09-23 11:35:01 ]</font>

[CzX]

Couldn't you play it thru your stereo and run your stereo Line Out into your computer's Line In and record the audio to a WAV file, and then split it up into parts using one of the MANY wav cutting programs on the web.

It's only a matter of time before someone cracks the encryption. WHY can't companies figure this out.

Just a thought.

[nfl2k2]

It won't be that hard to figure out how to get around the 'anti-piracy' ya know

[Chris X]

Y cant they figure it out that if they lower the prices of things, Less piracy would happen?


How many licks does it take to get to the center of a tootsi pop? The world will never know=P

[ember]

I wonder how disheartening it is for some guy who has worked years on inventing some anti-piracy methos only tosee it cracked within months? Maybe the pay was good so...he may not care. After all, he can start again on the latest project

[Branroyal]

ah, yes, but if one is a master hacker already cracking other people petty little protection attempts, he can come up with a good one of his own without punnishing and restricting consumers! CD audio on the CS2 disc can be ripped and all the nice things, that is not hurting the music biz. if it was, then people are free to copy songs off the radio! mass cdr dupping is what is hurting. lack of songs and quality bands are hurting! so now theres a way to buy a so so album and get footage of tours and studio sessions for yout TV and computer (i just killed the enhanced CD, RIAA dont like me too much right now) my advantage is my video content (vcd content) connot be copied PERIOD by the consumer public. i havent found a way to faithfully disc copy the finnished master and the music biz want to stop cdr bootlegging. replication is the only possible means of copying at a plant! by any means, we will see what happends but every cd dup tower that weve tested froze instantly

keep crackin
Will Smash
CS2

[marvel2020]

Have to agree with ember's first reply.

WHAT MAN MAKES, MAN CAN BREAK.

You don't have to look no futher than Dreamcast and PS2, if you know what i mean.

Piracy will never be beaten unless these big Record companys drop the price down as low as possible.

Consider this where i come from in the UK i can pick up a Pirated copy of any of the latest releases for £5.00

Now if they bring the price down to this, well you get my point.

[d4n13l]

I bet that everyone that creates a new anti-piracy technique says that it cannot be copied, then they end up with egg on their face.
You will still be able to copy the music anyway, without needing to write any kind of new software: Digital > Analogue > Digital (As c2x said).
At the end of the day, if you have a copy then you can make a copy. I mean, a CD is basically just a series of pits in a flat surface. What will stop somebody copying the series of bits into another disk? If you have a device that can read every single bit from a CD and record them, what will stop another device reading that "image" and burning to disk?
You also can't test it on the duplicators of tomorrow, as the duplicators of tomorrow will be designed to circumvent the latest anti-piracy techniques of today. Every single anti-piracy measure introduced has resulted in failure.
Software is infinitely changeable.
Luckily...






<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: d4n13l on 2001-09-23 13:33:40 ]</font>

I never understood what the big deal was about Napster given that the majority of the content was encoded with low bitrates resulting in HIGH quantitization error. If you're going to distribute MP3s, please put them out at 256Kb/s or higher. Anything lower sounds like crap.

CS2 won't be the answer, nor will any other copy protection method be the answer. Copy protection has never stopped piracy, it has only slowed it down.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: jsbuchanan on 2001-09-23 13:43:01 ]</font>

[nfl2k2]

Dreamcast and PC games are very hard to crack.. but lot's of people can do it. there's no stopping anyone with the new cd's

[AntnyMD]

I wholeheartedly agree that lowering the price of music and video to reasonable levels will do more for eliminating piracy than any born-to-be-cracked anti-piracy scheme. There is absolutely no reason why a film on DVD costs US$19.99, while the accompanying soundtrack CD goes for list price $18.98. Thats nearly the exact same price for less content, and half the music on it is crap. The music industry has been gouging music consumers since the early 1980s when the conversion to CD started, and quite frankly, if I were making that kind of profit per product, I would kick and scream to give it up.

[ember]

<TABLE BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH=85%><TR><TD><font size=-1>Quote:</font><HR size=1 color=black></TD></TR><TR><TD><FONT SIZE=-1><BLOCKQUOTE>
On 2001-09-23 12:27:37, Branroyal wrote:
ah, yes, but if one is a master hacker already cracking other people petty little protection attempts, he can come up with a good one of his own without punnishing and restricting consumers! CD audio on the CS2 disc can be ripped and all the nice things, that is not hurting the music biz. if it was, then people are free to copy songs off the radio! mass cdr dupping is what is hurting. lack of songs and quality bands are hurting! so now theres a way to buy a so so album and get footage of tours and studio sessions for yout TV and computer (i just killed the enhanced CD, RIAA dont like me too much right now) my advantage is my video content (vcd content) connot be copied PERIOD by the consumer public. </BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></TD></TR><TR><TD><HR size=1 color=black></TD></TR></TABLE>

I'm not sure if the music industry will want something that focusses on protecting the video content only of a CD. I'm sure that isn't their priority. As for the video extras on CDs- have to say that you can't get much on one. Are you saying that your protection scheme prevents the .dat from being extracted to mpeg1 (or whatever format it takes on these CDs) ?

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: ember on 2001-09-23 15:52:09 ]</font>

[CzX]

The human way ALWAYS tries to find ways around the system. If someone could crack the encryption on DVD discs, I'm pretty sure they won't have a hard time copying a VCD disc! Not only that, but prolly within about 5 minutes of the cd being released SOMEONE will have already figured out a way around the copy protection. That's just the way the human mind functions. No matter what companies do, if you can get it for free, you probably won't pay for it.

[Branroyal]

^ he is right! they do not want to let the CD go for various reasons. 1) it only cost 5 cents to make a pressed CD! they sell units to the record dist for prices between $7.14 to $8.00! thats a profit margin. you ever wonder why artist get dropped from a label? well on a new artist, a record label can move at least 100,000 units making about $800,000 by hyping a new artist as the next big thing! if the artist dont do well, the label willl move on to another because the venders who bought in the first time wont buy in a second time. 2) everyone in the world have a CD player. I have gone over this with every r&d department within all the labels who feel peoiple are going to drop their CD players for a loveing memory stick, super audio cd, or dvd audio. its not going to happen! cdr sales are through the roof, and as a avid consumer myself, i like the cd and it just work. someone have left a big window of opertunity open here. most DVD players made have vcd playability! i initially came up with this format as a way to destyroy the music biz and own it well as they say anger leads to the dark side of the force, but its time the consumers stop getting screwed, artist get paid for their hard work and the record labels pay for their sins lol. another note about the CS2 CD, we allow you to do your own remixes of songs directly off the disc. no need to by extra gear, no need to have restrictions... its just(i feel) a well put together mix of CD components within 1 CD package that cater to what ever unit you put it in. my last resort of added CD value is the fact most DVD players dont play CDR's, that is if anyone ever program a software that can copy the entire disc. copy protection schemes were made to restrict consumers, the CS2 CD was created with no intention for it to be copy protected. it just happend when it was all done, i couldnt be copied by anything. we just want to deliver music videos, remixing, 5.1 surround sound with your favorate CD single and album. the disc copying protection was one of those shocking things that just happend and turned out to be better than the ones that are being ripped daily it will be fun to see where this go as i myself have cracked many schemes. i welcome the challenge

Will Smash
Consumer Surround Sound Inc.
CS2

[d4n13l]

I dont even think that the lowering of prices will stamp out piracy. They would have to sell CDs for about 30% of the current retail price, to really accomplish anything. I personally wouldnt buy something for £15 when i could just as easily get it for 50p (Or indeed spend £5 on something that I could get for 50p). It is immpossible for the music and film industries to sell their products at pirate-like prices (With blank CDRs selling for a few pence). Now WE have the technology in our homes to make near perfect digital copies, is it surprising that we would rather pay 50 pence to copy a CD than buy the CD for £15? They have been screwing us for years, now it is our turn to return the favour.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: d4n13l on 2001-09-23 15:58:43 ]</font>

[choxie]

I believe there are several programs out there that will capture the data stream sent to the sound card and save it in a file. This will be a somewhat east way to get around most copy protection.

[Branroyal]

to ember, the reality is this... the authoring talents of this forum is not what the industry worry about. ripping a dat file isnt a problem. the average consumer dont know what the hell a .dat file is, let alone know how to author their own vcd with a .dat file that needs conversion. the talents here are an exception brand of programer, the mass buying public love easy cd creator and dont know what the hell nero or winoncd is, let alone the advantages. enhanced cd always sucked, the video content never was good and the macromedia stuff hang some computers. what you get with CS2 is basicly a CD that cover all your machines. if the few guys at this forum find a way to back it up, im sure it will be in a manner that wont effect the in store value of a silver pressed copy from a plant. the mass consumer public will not know how to excersise the disc copying method of such if ever created. i havent bought a store bought cd in years since cd copying has been around as im sure many here are in the same position. when kid rock new album come out with tour footage (working on it , bad ass chicks, and exclusive studio footage, his 12 song album (47 mins, over 25 mins left for video content) will have more than enough space for close to an half of hour of very high quality s-vhs VCD video (after release, ill post my settings and a bluprint for which all music CD's will be made of to survive the cdr onslaught.

"if you own the technology the industry needs tomorrow, then you will own the industry"- Bill Gates.

Will Smash
Consumer Surround Sound inc.
CS2

[TIbrO]

Branroyal, where are you located? Are you in the USA? This sounds like a cool idea. Is there a site you can point me to so that I can read about your new kind of CD that will contain unique content for each playback device found in your home? That's what I assumed this CS2 stuff is after reading your posts.

[AntnyMD]

Branroyal:

Sure, according to what youre saying, your CS2 compact discs cant be duplicated in press plants or whatever -- but cant the DAT streams be copied in Windows Explorer and/or demuxed in TMPGEnc Tools? Come on -- by repeatedly stating your product cant be copied you're virtually inviting piracy -- just look at the last post "can you point me to a site that talks about your product..."

I didnt intend this thread to be an advert for your process -- but since you took the opportunity -- show us some facts, please.

[CzX]

Yes please, show us some facts or something. Sure, I can see how this new technology would work, but if someone can copy a VCD, I don't see why they couldn't be able to copy this new format.... hmmm.

And yeah, I'm pretty sure you could demux the streams in TMPGenc. And if not, I'd give the new format about 2 days before one of those ingenious cracking tools are released. LOL.

<TABLE BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH=85%><TR><TD><font size=-1>Quote:</font><HR size=1 color=black></TD></TR><TR><TD><FONT SIZE=-1><BLOCKQUOTE>
On 2001-09-23 17:35:36, AntnyMD wrote:
Branroyal:

Sure, according to what youre saying, your CS2 compact discs cant be duplicated in press plants or whatever -- but cant the DAT streams be copied in Windows Explorer and/or demuxed in TMPGEnc Tools? Come on -- by repeatedly stating your product cant be copied you're virtually inviting piracy -- just look at the last post "can you point me to a site that talks about your product..."

I didnt intend this thread to be an advert for your process -- but since you took the opportunity -- show us some facts, please.
</BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></TD></TR><TR><TD><HR size=1 color=black></TD></TR></TABLE>

[Branroyal]

i admit to the fact the dat streams can be ripped but to faithfully make disc images of the whole CD is just not possible, trust me, sony japan tried cracking it already and they failed very poorly! no one will be able to put this format together error and glitch free till i expose how its done. i am currently in talks with several major companies that are currently bidding for ownership, and i will make my choice in buyer soon.imagine being able to buy a new CD single or album and get the episode 2 attack of the clones trailer in 16:9 format (by the way looks just like a dvd by many eyes) it will happen. imagine walking in a DTS equiped movie theater and before the movie start you get to listen to true 5.1 digital surround sound tracks from current CS2 CD single releases thats also comming. imagine making your own remixed version of the songs on the CS2 CD and then on the spot bounce a wav then burn it to listen in your cd player and for your friends to hear! its comming i am about to give the CD buying public more out of 1 mere CD than any other format could ever give a consumer for music entertainment. all the good stuff is in the CS2 portion of the CD, which because of an error correction element cannot copy. unless your using a LBR (laser beam recorder at a pressing plant=$1,000,000 piece of gear) the reality is the CD is back and will be stronger than ever thanks to the DVD people and the scared people at warner home video (wait till i post a copy of the conference call i had with them lol)they know i have the format that they wish the DVD could do, but now they can only bid against companies much bigger than them well again, we will see what happends, but i will promise you will like what you see and hear

Will Smash
Consumer Surround Sound Inc.
CS2
New York, Ny

[Battra92]

You say all copy programs such as Nero EasyCD etc. all lock up. There is a nifty one you didn't mention. Clone CD. It even copies the CD's that were deemed uncopyable by the industry.

[Branroyal]

clone cd ate dust first, then blind read ate dust second
when released im sure their will be many fun post regarding this issue.

Will Smash
Consumer Surround Sound Inc.
CS2

[barnsey]

Sounds like an interesting concept but i am with the others, i dont want to repeat what they are all saying but i mean look at a site such as http://www.isonews.com and you can see how many copy protected games/apps/ps2 etc are released every day, you are most defianetly right about the general public not being able to copy the cds because most people wouldnt even know how to spell demultiplex (I hope i spelt it right ) let alone know how to do it. I tihnk this can be a good concept if more people have to buy the original cd maybe prices could go down but i doubt it and i will just be left to either pay $30 (aud) or download the mp3s..... hmmm tough choice.

Good luck with the negotiation with the record companies, i say rip the bastards off

[Branroyal]

AntnyMD wrote:
"I didnt intend this thread to be an advert for your process -- but since you took the opportunity -- show us some facts, please."

Your thread possed a question, one in which got answered. keep an eye on billbord mag and your local record stores around xmas (DVD player sales biggest quarter) if you have cnn, you may start to soon hear about the bidding as its already passed the 10 figure mark

[pacmania_2001]

To branroyal
Firstly, You say that you arent worried about people like us getting the .dat file off because the average consumer wont be able to but what is stopping us once we have got it putting it on mIRC or Morpheous or write a program that gets around it and distribute it.

Secondly, most people dont even care about the video content on a disc. They buy an audio cd for the AUDIO. If they want the video then they buy the video or DVD.

Thirdly, you are supposedly a trillionaire yet you hang out in a forum like this. You dont sound too reputable. Where is the proof? like a website or a mention in the news. I consider myself to be very up with the latest news about this sort of stuff and i havent heard a word. The story too wasnt about your 'super hard to break' encrpytion either.

Fourthly, You say that Sony Japan couldnt break it. Who cares, they probably couldnt break the DVD encoding either. This is because the best hackers arent working in a lab at a major corporation. They are in a place like Russia. They are people who do it for the hell of it or because they dont like the big corportaions telling them what they can and cant do.

That is why EVERY encryption method ever tried has been cracked.

[Branroyal]

to pacmania,
i think vcd help is a great forum of vcd authoring talent. Many of which will be saught after for their encoding talents by many authoring mastering houses once this format become the CD standard. so am i just to roll over and not get on the web anymore? the fact is most people would like their music videos on their audio CD instead of paying $9.99 for a simple DVD single. if you want to just listen to your audio, the video content do not alter that experience. dont worry, by the time im done, you will see more than enough of the CS2 name and format. many within this forum in the past wrote about the possibilities of cdda with white book 2.0. search the threads and find many answers that say "no", "yeah well it is possible","well winoncd can do it" ,"ive done it before with video pack", but never a valid response to the question. now there is. the vcd format have been around since 1993, and not once have i seen a consumer friendly one with cdda track with no errors. the product is on its way and mass stealing of it is not likely. by the way i will continue to stay in this comunity because i just like it and the people here are realistic and on the cutting edge of whats going on.

Will Smash
Consumer Surround Sound Inc
CS2

[ember]

BranRoyal - If I could buy audio tracks and a 30 min VCD without any loss in audio quality I would do so: but are you sure the companies are gonna sell these at comparable prices to normal aduio CDs? I would bet they are gonna be $2 or more expensive. The companies will never sell a new format (especially one that offers more)cheaper than the old. Unless you can persuade them otherwise, I think the public will say "Huh? $2 more for just a bit of video footage - I'd rather stick with Napster/Morpheus"

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: ember on 2001-09-24 06:27:30 ]</font>