PAL source to NTSC capture?

[alegator]

(1) I have a source PAL VHS tape. Lets say I capture this source in my PC and I set the capture software (Videowave4, Ulead Media StudioPro6.5, etc) in NTSC. Will it render a clean NTSC video file or will it have some sort of distortion and/or loss?

(2) Lets say that now I capture the source in PAL and later author a DVD.Will this DVD be PAL? What if I play this DVD in a NTSC DVD player? Will the image show some sort of distorion and/or loss?

Thanks.

[Xesdeeni]

(1) I have a source PAL VHS tape. Lets say I capture this source in my PC

Does your capture hardware support PAL?

and I set the capture software (Videowave4, Ulead Media StudioPro6.5, etc) in NTSC. Will it render a clean NTSC video file or will it have some sort of distortion and/or loss?

If you actually set the hardware for NTSC, then you will see at least a black and white image, and likely it will roll, if you see anything at all.

(2) Lets say that now I capture the source in PAL and later author a DVD.Will this DVD be PAL?

It will be unless you convert it between the time you capture it and the time you make the DVD.

What if I play this DVD in a NTSC DVD player? Will the image show some sort of distorion and/or loss?

Many DVD players can support both PAL and NTSC. Some of them can also do a decent, but low quality, conversion from one to the other. Normally, you just have to set their output to your TV standard (instead of "auto") and put in a DVD of the other standard (ignoring the region code issues that may also be present). The quality is not optimal, but it is very watchable.

If standards conversion were simply a matter of capturing in the other format, then every capture device would support it. Your best bet is to capture in the original format and then do a conversion before producing your output.

Xesdeeni

[alegator]

Thanks Xesdeeni for your informative answer! You mentioned: "Your best bet is to capture in the original format and then do a conversion before producing your output."
How do I do the "conversion"? Is there any software that will process the captured videofile to convert it? I assume you are talking about converting from PAL to NTSC and viceversa.
Thanks!

[Xesdeeni]

There is some commercial software, but you can do it with free software as well. The best way depends on what the original format of the video was.

If the original was from film, then you should slow the 25 fps video down to 23.976 fps (along with the sound). This reverses what they did when they converted the 24 fps film to 25 fps PAL, and then converts the 24 fps to 23.976 fps, which they do when they convert film to NTSC. The exact process depends on your input and output preferences, and your choice of tools.

If the original was from video (i.e. it's interlaced), then you can use my AVISynth script and plugin (http://www.vcdhelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=118120). In this case, there is no need to touch the audio.

Xesdeeni

[alegator]

Thanks Xesdeeni for your knowledgeable answer. I will research on the info you geve me and report on the results. In the menatime I have a problem that maybe you can help.
I have the following situation: I want to capture video from a PAL-N VHS videotape. I tried this in 2 ways:
-by connecting the VCR to the Dazzle/Mojave 1394 PCI card video capture unit
-by connecting the VCR to the Sony DCR-TRV950 MiniDV camcorder and using its Analog to AVI/DV on the fly feature
I also tried using my installed software Videowave4 and UleadMediastudioPro6.5 for capture.
The problem is that in Videowave I get a black and white picture in the preview (eventhough it was set for PAL) and in Ulead I don't even get any preview (as if it is not recognized).
This problem does not occur when the source tape to be captured is NTSC.
Can you suggest any apporach to solve this?
Thanks.

[Xesdeeni]

Whew! Now your problem is a bit more than normal PAL->NTSC

OK, so you are in either Argentina, Uruguay, or Paraguay.

PAL-N uses a hybrid of "standard" PAL and "standard" NTSC. It uses the 625 lines of PAL and the 3.58MHz color carrier of NTSC (http://www.alkenmrs.com/video/standards.html).

As a result, if you capture using "standard" PAL, you'll get a very nice black and white picture, because it can't find the color carrier. If you capture using "standard" NTSC, and you actually get anything, it will be a rolling color picture, because although it finds the color carrier OK, it's looking for 525 lines, not 625.

So, you're going to have to figure out how to get your hardware capture device to recognize this combination, just to get the video captured. Unfortunately, this isn't something that software can help you with.

Since your aim is to get a digital version of the video, you'll need something that will go from PAL-N to digital PAL (no letter once it's digital). If you bought your Sony camcorder locally, then it should support an analog input of PAL-N. The same should be true for the Dazzle card, but you may have to find a "PAL-N" setting.

Another option is to take a look at your VCR settings. In the U.S. we don't have this type of option, but I noticed than many overseas VCRs (and TVs) are multi-standard (and you implied this when you mentioned putting an NTSC tape in the same VCR as you put the PAL-N tape). On the one I played with in Europe, there were settings for the various formats, including PAL-N. I'm guessing your VCR (or another you can get your hands on) will convert the color frequency to "standard" PAL, so you can use your capture card in "PAL" mode. I.e. the VCR converts from PAL-N to PAL, so your PAL capture card can deal with it.

Wow! Let us all know how you solve this one!

Xesdeeni

[alegator]

Xesdeeni, it seems I'm embarked in a challenging project here. One probably hardware related (capturing the PAL-N or PAL-M video source) and the other one surely software related (converting my digitized PAL-n or PAL-M video file to NTSC).
By the way, the Videowave4 software that came with my capture hardware lists "PAL-B" when capturing the PAL-M source I try to digitize, displaying a black and white picture.
Yes, I'm in Argentina and here we use PAL-N. Problem is I always buy hardware in the USA with US standards (110volts, NTSC, etc). So my Sony DCR-TRV950 is NTSC. My VCR is an old Panasonic Omnivision VHS model PV-4500 (consisting of PV-4000/PV-A35P portable Video Cassette recorder) that was adapted here in Argentina to be able to play 3 types of standards: NTSC (as originally built for), PAL-N (the local standard) and a third standard that says "Pal-Miami" which I assume is PAL-M and that I recovered from the dust in the basement for this project (it still works great! Old things were made better!). To this end it has an added switch that allows you to choose between these 3 standards so I can playback (and record) with it videotapes in these 3 standards. I had this VCR connected to my TV and in the 80's I recorded from TV different programs that now I would like to digitize before they degrade (or degrade further). Thing is that for some reason I recorded these tapes in "PAL-MIAMI" (PAL-M?) Standard.
Now, regarding the first hurdle I thought about 2 approaches:
(1) Use a 2nd VCR that has PAL-N standard and record the PAL-M source (played in the Panasonic VCR) and convert it to PAL-N. Then try to capture this pure PAL-N video in my videowave software. Now I wonder here if this is a 100% hardware problem. As I said above the Videowave 4 lists PAL-B. I wonder if I could somhow patch it with some software to also list PAL-N or PAL-M?? Because even if I convert it to PAL-N the problem will still exist, it will display a black and white pic.
(2) I have a SONY TV (model KV-20HFR) that in the back it has as most TV's composite audio and video inputs, but this model also has "Monitor Audio/Video OUTPUTS" composite. I wonder if I could try this: Connect the Panasonic VCR to the Sony TV to its AV inputs and then connect a 2nd VCR to the AV outputs in the SONY TV and record in PAL-N. Maybe the signal coming from the TV outputs is different from the input signal. For sure, the output signal carries whatever is shown in the TV display.
Of course a 3rd alternative, would be to spend money and buy a PAL-N compatible hardware/software capture suite. But this option is one I would like to leave as a last one, should everything else fail. To this end, what do you think of the "MIRO VIDEO DC30 PRO" capture/edit video suite (I guess it's from Pinnacle systems)? They sell one locally and it says compatible with NTSC/SECAM/PAL-N.
Well let me know what you think of my approaches.
Thanks again!!!

[mdavis]

Xesdeeni, as I have been reading through these forums I have seen the suggestion to slow down the video from 25 fps to 23.976 fps as you suggest. I wonder if this much change in the frame rate would be noticable. It amounts to about 4% reduction, or an extra 1 second for every 25 sec..

Is this really what they do to convert from 24 fps film to PAL? I have been looking for a way to convert several 25 fps progressive files to 30 fps for playback on a DVD-R. So far I have not been able to convert without getting jumpy playback during panning scenes.

Mike

[hal99]

I live in Argentina too, and sometimes exposed to your experiences too.
I want to drop you a concept here:
You should not say , when refering to the RECORD process, that it is done in PAL-N, PAL-M, PAL-B, etc.
It is always straight PAL......If you record a TV show from Argentina (PAL-N country) using a local Argentinian VCR , and you take your tape to GERMANY (PAL-B country) using a German VCR, the tape still works and outputs color video. Guess why ??? TAPES ARE ALWAYS RECORDED IN PAL-B !!!! (no matter in what country you are).
It's not a matter of the recording process, it is a matter of the PLAYBACK...the video output has the standard (N,M or B).
So you get a capture board that supports the output of your VCR. I use ATI RADEON that captures really good with the uncompressed AVI setting. It supports all the f...ing standards around the world.

[alegator]

hal99, it seems we are neighbors. Kind of confusing what you're saying. My VCR (bought in the USA and adapted in Argentina) has 3 switch positions: NTSC, PAL-N and PAL-M. If I record a tape in one of these positions I won't be able to play it back in the other ones, only in the one that I chose for recording.
Also, my video capture hardware seems to be compatible and ready for the PAL-B standard and apparently it's not able to capture either PAL-N or PAL-M, so this seems to contradict what you're saying about PAL recordings always been done in PAL-B.
Regarding the ATI RADEON I have an ATI RADEON 9700 PRO, but it doesn't seem to capture video, only S-Video Output. What is the model that you have? The ALL-In Wonder? And how do you capture video? You connect the video output of the VCR to the video input of the ATI and the audio out of the VCR to the Line In of the sound card?
Gracias!

[hal99]

My ATI model : ALL IN WONDER RADEON 7500 .....composite and S-Video in (no digital input)....
Regarding conections you are 100% right / Audio out to Line in in sound card and video out (either Composite or S-Video) to your card video input.

Let's start from the very begining....
Broadcast signal from TV station goes in to VCR (PAL-N signal)....
It is decoded inside the VCR, and when it comes the time to stamp the tape THEN you get a PAL-B recording....
On the output, VCR gets the tape information in PAL-B and converts it to PAL-N for output to your TV, capture board, etc.
This is why your tape will work on a GERMAN VCR, the only difference is that this one will output PAL-B (ready for a GERMAN TV).
THIS STORY APPLIES JUST TO PAL WORLD.

Considering PAL against NTSC world, then appies what you say....if you record in NTSC you play NTSC and same for PAL....

I've checked at ATI web site about the characteristics of your card, and it looks fantastic....but it doesn't support capture, just a video out connector for displaying what you have onscreen to another external device (projector, TV, etc).

You have an extraordinary video card (I don't want to recommend switching that to an ALL IN WONDER version), you just need to buy a capture card, and due to the requirements of the work you have to do, try to find something that fits your present and is ready for the future, I mean with this (composite video input, S-Video input and digital "firewire" input....and provide support for multiple standards..
Take a look at MIRO or PINNACLE boards.

By the way, why do I still write in english if we are ARGENTINOS !!!

Vivo en Capital Federal.....

[alegator]

hal99, ok clear what you say about the PAL standard, thanks. In anycase my VCR wil output in PAL-N or PAL-M, not in PAL-B, so I guess if I had a German or European (Except France that has SECAM) VCR I could output the signal in PAL-B, but I don't.
Regarding my video card I had the GeForce4 Ti4600, but when the ATI 9700 came out I didn't hesitate a minute to upgrade, I sold my GeForce and bought the 9700.It's an amazing card, imagine, I play most games at full video settings, 1600x1200 and FPS above 40!.It leaves the GeForce4 in the dust.
I already have a PCI capture board that has S-Video and Composite video inputs PLUS firewire (digital) inputs, but as I said only compatible with the PAL-B and NTSC standards. My best bet is then to keep my current capture board and upgrade my RADEON 9700 Pro to the soon to be released ATI ALL-IN-WONDER RADEON 9700 PRO videocard. It's a fantastic card, it has all the video power of my current card plus Analog Video capture, TV input (180 channel cable tuner), S-Video Out and DVI plus a remote control to switch between DVD, TV, PC, etc and you can also use it to convert your PC in a TV VCR, and best of all (I checked this with ATI) it supports PAL-N and PAL-M both for TV playback and analog capture! (you motivated me to get the info).
I guess we are writing in english because this is an english forum and that way other readers can understand/participate in our interesting and knowledgeable exchange of info!
Che, yo tambien vivo en Capital federal.Te dejo mi email: larry2002@argentina.com

[Xesdeeni]

Xesdeeni, as I have been reading through these forums I have seen the suggestion to slow down the video from 25 fps to 23.976 fps as you suggest. I wonder if this much change in the frame rate would be noticable. It amounts to about 4% reduction, or an extra 1 second for every 25 sec..

Is this really what they do to convert from 24 fps film to PAL? I have been looking for a way to convert several 25 fps progressive files to 30 fps for playback on a DVD-R. So far I have not been able to convert without getting jumpy playback during panning scenes.

Converting 24 fps to PAL has been around for almost as long as PAL TV, and longer than converting 24 fps to NTSC! In the early days they didn't have any fancy equipment. I'm sure in the lab they just pointed a PAL camera at a screen on which they were projecting a 24 fps film. But you'll see all kinds of problems with this, like flickering images, tears, bars, etc. So some smart engineer figured out that if they just speed the 24 fps film up to 25 fps and synchronize the PAL camera, it looks great.

Yes, there is a 4% increase in the sound as well. And yes, if you compare the source and destination, you'll hear the difference. But it's just not that noticable.

Of course, not all PAL transfers of film are done this way. A few don't speed the film up, and instead do a sort of 3:2:2:2:2:2:2:2:2:2:2:2 pulldown . But the majority still do it the "old fashioned way."

It's difficult to show without having access to both DVDs. However, I'm pretty sure that most early DVDs had little more than the movie on them, so if you look at the running time for these DVDs, you'll see they are different. For example, I found that "Arthur" was released in Region 1 NTSC on August 22, 1997 (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/stores/detail/-/dvd/0790731886/tech-info/ref=pm_d...273582-4351347). The Region 2 PAL version was released on June 28, 1999 (http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/tg/stores/detail/-/dvd/B00004CYRB/tech-info/ref=ed...773521-8920652). You'll note that the NTSC version's running time is 97 minutes, while the PAL running time is 93 minutes. That's about 4% shorter than the NTSC version.

So if you have a film-sourced PAL video, give it a try. Your jumpy playback during panning scenes should be no worse than the 3:2 pulldown of a typical NTSC conversion. And you are basically reversing what is actually done in production DVDs.

Xesdeeni

[alegator]

hal99, the ati card that you mention you capture video with, is it the european or the north american version? thanks!