dvd-r or dvd+rw

[hardy]

Which is best?

[boss]

dvd-r/rw is better than dvd+r/rw! the media is cheaper, there is more support.that's why i have ordered a pioneer 104. A magazine i recently read reviewed a dvd+r/rw drive and said the format was likely to fall off the bandwagon before the journey really starts!

[SatStorm]

For now, DVD-R(w) is a better option
tommorow, who knows!

[jpaguila]

For me, DVD+R/+RW is great...

Read my post about it in....
http://www.vcdhelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=94569

Juan Pablo.

[Kusanagi]

DVD+R/W just came to the party way too late. DVD-R/W is now the ONLY official and recognized standard for DVD recording and has the backing of over 230 companies/corporations that make up the backbone of the DVD Forum. Only 8 major companies form the +RW Alliance (and now losing one big supporter - Sony - to the DVD-R/W standard) Even now Sony is dropping support for the DVD+R/W standard and using only DVD-R/W drives in their new Vaio line and have made a DVD-R/W only set-top recorder. See - http://www.dv-info.net/cgi-bin/ib/ikonboard.cgi?s=3cfd253a7cafffff;act=ST;f=5;t=16 It does not look to good for DVD+RW, if analysts are predicting the DVD format war to be over soon...


Kusanagi

[jpaguila]

The members of the DVD Alliance are also part of the DVD Forum.
Sony is just releasing a new PC DVD+RW/+R drive.
You know, none here can really say what's the future going to be. This is not a format war either, since both format would be read by most new DVD players and DVD Roms and by many old ones.
DVD+R/+RW media prices are now at DVD-R levels and available.
My DVD+R and your DVD-R are not really that different once burned, so what's the point here really.
What's the best format ?
The one that fulfills your requirements. That's all
Techs are as a matter of fact secondary factor (Eventhough none say that DVD+R techs are less than DVD-R)

Best regards

Juan Pablo

[Kusanagi]

A good summary of the current state of DVD recordable media and technology can be found here - http://www.dv-info.net/cgi-bin/ib/ikonboard.cgi?s=3cfd253a7cafffff;act=ST;f=5;t=15


Kusanagi

[john1290]

dvd-r/rw is better than dvd+r/rw! the media is cheaper, there is more support.that's why i have ordered a pioneer 104. A magazine i recently read reviewed a dvd+r/rw drive and said the format was likely to fall off the bandwagon before the journey really starts!

You're just trying to rationalize your purchase of a DVD-RW drive. But you made a mistake.....you should have said " >1x< media is cheaper." You're 2x media is slower than our 2.4x DVD+R media and the 2.4x DVD+Rs and 2x DVD-Rs are around the same price. Same for DVD+RW and DVD-RW, media is around the same....but ours is quicker.

And I read an article that said DVD-RW is old technology and with DVD+R, you get the same level of compatibility, PLUS faster burns and options not availible with -RW.

[john1290]

DVD+R/W just came to the party way too late. DVD-R/W is now the ONLY official and recognized standard for DVD recording and has the backing of over 230 companies/corporations that make up the backbone of the DVD Forum. Only 8 major companies form the +RW Alliance (and now losing one big supporter - Sony - to the DVD-R/W standard) Even now Sony is dropping support for the DVD+R/W standard and using only DVD-R/W drives in their new Vaio line and have made a DVD-R/W only set-top recorder. See - http://www.dv-info.net/cgi-bin/ib/ikonboard.cgi?s=3cfd253a7cafffff;act=ST;f=5;t=16 It does not look to good for DVD+RW, if analysts are predicting the DVD format war to be over soon...


Kusanagi

DVD+RW did come to the party late but why was it invited? If DVD-RW so so "superior", why would anyone make a challenge to it? DVD-RW stinks. With DVD+R/W you get everything that -RW has to offer but it's faster. And you, along with others, seem to forget that DVD+RW *JUST* came out in October of 2001. You go on and on about how -RW has tons of support.....no sh*t........-RW has been around for a bit longer than +RW. DUH! Are you too stupid to see that? The ZIP drive has been out HOW long now? Has it replaced the 3.5" floppy drive? NOPE!. There are room for different DVD formats. So long as -R and +R discs can be read in set top players and DVD-ROMs, why do you have to fight? People that out and out lie about +RW perplex me.....it's like you feel threatened....are you? Just because you bought a more established format doesn't mean it's any better or worse. If next year, there are DVD-RW drives capable of writing media at 8x, I'll probably buy one.

[Eug]

DVD+RW did come to the party late but why was it invited? If DVD-RW so so "superior", why would anyone make a challenge to it? DVD-RW stinks. With DVD+R/W you get everything that -RW has to offer but it's faster. And you, along with others, seem to forget that DVD+RW *JUST* came out in October of 2001. You go on and on about how -RW has tons of support.....no sh*t........-RW has been around for a bit longer than +RW. DUH! Are you too stupid to see that? The ZIP drive has been out HOW long now? Has it replaced the 3.5" floppy drive? NOPE!. There are room for different DVD formats. So long as -R and +R discs can be read in set top players and DVD-ROMs, why do you have to fight? People that out and out lie about +RW perplex me.....it's like you feel threatened....are you? Just because you bought a more established format doesn't mean it's any better or worse. If next year, there are DVD-RW drives capable of writing media at 8x, I'll probably buy one.

Heheh, the better analogy is that DVD+RW crashed the party. It wasn't invited at all. Nonetheless it's here.

Yes, there is room for various formats, but it's unfortunate that these companies can't agree on a set of technologies. It just serves to hinder the market and confuse people, and keep our recordable media and drive prices high.

[jowel13]

Ally68:

Article on DVD+R vs. DVD-R from zdnet...

http://www.zdnet.com/products/stories/reviews/0,4161,2868531,00.html

"But performance is only one criterion for judging DVD recordable drives, especially if you plan to burn home-movie discs. A preburned DVD+R provided by HP worked in every player we tested it in, including some real antiques that wouldn't play DVD-Rs. This initial success is promising, but it's still early in the DVD+R game; we'll continue to test this disc and others we've burned ourselves in as many drives and players we can."

[Kusanagi]

john1290, no need to get huffy-puffy, just stating what is FACT. Instead of blasting away that one format is better than the other, which you are doing. Also, I've noticed you are from DVDplusRW.org, so again I don't think we can take all your statements at face value, as they will be slanted toward the +RW side (thus your attack on DVD-R/W). Just a recap for all keeping score --

- DVD-R/W is supported by the DVD Forum which has around 232 active members. These members are both media and drive unit manufacturers.

- DVD+R/W is supported by the +RW Alliance, which is formed by 8 core corporations and backed by around 25 other media companies.

- DVD+R/W is not an officially recognized standard. Because of this, you cannot use the DVD Video logo on DVD+R discs. For information on this and logo use, see - http://www.dvdfllc.co.jp/mess.htm#notice

- DVD-RW is still more compatible in DVD-ROM drives than DVD+RW, due to a majority of DVD-ROM drives that are out there are OEM'ed Pioneer units or Toshiba units. (Though this is slowly changing due to newly released firmware updates)

- Certified 2x DVD-R media is still cheaper in stores. Locally, I can find Verbatim 2x DVD-R media for $4.99, while HP is charging $9.99 for 2.4x DVD+R media.

- miniDVD camcorders. Hitachi has released their new line of miniDVD format camcorders. They essentially use a mini 1.4gb/30min. DVD-R disc or a mini-DVD-RAM disc. I have not seen any camcorder that uses the +R/W standard from any company.

- DVD Multi drives. DVD Multi certified drives are slowly appearing, which may become the norm. Information here - http://dvdforum.com/tech-dvdmulti.htm and user reports of DVD-R and DVD-RAM compatibility can be found here - http://www.dv-info.net/cgi-bin/ib/ikonboard.cgi?s=3cfe33fc38b6ffff;act=ST;f=30;t=1 These new DVD Multi drives are not certified, nor required, to be compatible with DVD+R or DVD+RW media (but are fully compatible with DVD-R, DVD-RW, and DVD-RAM formats).

- Also according to the latest report published online from Verbatim, found at - http://www.dv-info.net/cgi-bin/ib/ikonboard.cgi?s=3cfe33fc38b6ffff;act=ST;f=5;t=15 - DVD-R is still more suited for video needs and streaming video due to CLV writing, a mode that is also used for DVD Video players. DVD+R/W is intended more for computer (while incorporating DVD video compatibility characteristics) than A/V use. This is one reason Sony decided to go with DVD-R/W in their new line of Vaios, which incorporate more video editing features then they ever did before.

- DVD-R is still the chosen format for distribution for NLE users and post-prodcution houses. DVD+R/W has yet to penetrate this market - and probably never will (high-end NLE suppliers/distributors have yet to carry any DVD+R/W drives.) Again, why Sony selected DVD-R/W over DVD+R/W for their higher-end Vaio systems.

- 4x and DVD-Multi certified DVD-R/-RW/RAM drives on the horizon. You may think that 2.4x DVD+R/W is fast (not really though - the extra 3-5 minutes over DVD-R burning is hardly that much faster) just wait until Sanyo releases their 4x DVD-R / 2x DVD-RW drive soon (end of the month in Japan, 2 or more months until a state-side release). At 4x writing a DVD-R full of video can be written to in about 12 minutes. I have not seen any announcements by the +RW Alliance yet on new, faster drives - and even Phillips is still rushing to get their act together and release their first drive that supports DVD+R! If Sanyo and Pioneer get their faster drives out and the +RW Alliance do not announce faster drives, or have no intention of doing so, that could be all she wrote, as I doubt the +RW Alliance wants to play catch-up all over again.

- Most of all the recent DVD players released are 100% compatible with DVD-R and even advertise that they play DVD-R! Toshiba even clearly prints that it can play DVD-R on the retail boxes of the SD-3755, SD-4700, and SD-5700. Panasonic is now starting to do the same, advertising on the box that the new RP-62K can play DVD-R. Due to logo/licensing DVD+R limitations, your normal consumer will not know if a certian player can or cannot play DVD+R/W media. Plus, I have yet to see ANY DVD+R compatibility list or database from any of the major supporters of DVD+R/W! How are consumers supposed to know if their player or new DVD players will work with DVD+R/W if this is not readily available!? If it were not for sites like vcdhelp, how would people know what players support DVD+R/W media?

- Support. Pioneer has been pretty loyal with their customer base. We can truely say that this IS NOT the case with DVD+R/W drive suppliers - ie. HP. When DVD-RW was upgraded to v.2.0, all A03 users had to do was to download a FREE firmware update and presto! Fully compatible with new features. Ricoh, HP, and to an extent Philips (the major suppliers of DVD+R/W drives) led customers on with promised DVD+R write once features, and then later promised a free firmware update to make this happen. HP is currently tangled in a class action suit in Las Vegas about this (broken +R promise) and even if you have a DVD100i drive and want the +R write-once feature, not only do you have to send you drive back to HP, but pay them an additonal $100 for the feature that was originally promised for free! On top of that HP support and service is pretty much in the toliet. When it comes to overall support and service, it is no question that the DVD-R/W users have had smooth sailing, unlike the rough start and annoyances that DVD+R/W users have been currently experiencing.


There are probably many more, but these are the main ones that I have concluded from vcdhelp, dvdplusrw, and dv-info.net.

Also, john1290, I'd check the posting guidelines, as your bordering on flaming, including name calling and insulting members here (this is not a DVDplusRW.org thread -- and a lot of members here at vcdhelp do not tolerate this). If you contunue to do so, you are only as good as your last post.


Kusanagi

[john1290]

john1290, no need to get huffy-puffy, just stating what is FACT. Instead of blasting away that one format is better than the other, which you are doing. Also, I've noticed you are from DVDplusRW.org, so again I don't think we can take all your statements at face value, as they will be slanted toward the +RW side (thus your attack on DVD-R/W). Just a recap for all keeping score --

Yes, I frequent DVDPLUSrw.org.....and your point is what? I'm not Westblock...I'm not on a DVDMINUSRW board blasting away. I'm on VCDHELP.

- DVD-R/W is supported by the DVD Forum which has around 232 active members. These members are both media and drive unit manufacturers.

And your point is what exactly? This means nothing....so long as my DVD+R discs can play in DVD set top players.....who cares.

- DVD+R/W is not an officially recognized standard. Because of this, you cannot use the DVD Video logo on DVD+R discs. For information on this and logo use, see - http://www.dvdfllc.co.jp/mess.htm#notice

Again......who cares about a logo? Did you buy Michael "Air" Jordan tennis shoes when they came out? Cause you know....that Jordan logo on the side makes you jump higher and own other players on the bball courts.
My DVD+R discs lack the ever (NOT) important DVD video logo and they play P-E-R-F-E-C-T-L-Y in DVDrom/set top players and guess what....they don't have the logo cause the logo isn't important! Of course the DVD forum isn't going to give the "logo" to the competition. Thats like Ford saying........"since Chevy Suburban's don't have the Ford logo on the hood it isn't allowed to drive on the interstate." Get real.

- DVD-RW is still more compatible in DVD-ROM drives than DVD+RW, due to a majority of DVD-ROM drives that are out there are OEM'ed Pioneer units or Toshiba units. (Though this is slowly changing due to newly released firmware updates)

How about...."DVD-RW is more compatible in DVD-ROM drives because DVD-RW has been around for a few years MORE than DVD+RW but as time marches on, all DVD-ROMs will be able to read DVD+RW as well as DVD-RW."

- Certified 2x DVD-R media is still cheaper in stores. Locally, I can find Verbatim 2x DVD-R media for $4.99, while HP is charging $9.99 for 2.4x DVD+R media.

First, only fools buy media like that in retail stores. -RW-R+RW+R media is expensive in ANY store. 2x -Rs and +Rs around around the same price online. FACT!

- miniDVD camcorders. Hitachi has released their new line of miniDVD format camcorders. They essentially use a mini 1.4gb/30min. DVD-R disc or a mini-DVD-RAM disc. I have not seen any camcorder that uses the +R/W standard from any company.

Again....since +RW *JUST CAME OUT*, it will be a while before you see miniDVD recorders capable of using +R media. When -RW came out, did you have miniDVD camcorders or media 2 days later? NO!

- DVD Multi drives. DVD Multi certified drives are slowly appearing, which may become the norm. Information here - http://dvdforum.com/tech-dvdmulti.htm and user reports of DVD-R and DVD-RAM compatibility can be found here - http://www.dv-info.net/cgi-bin/ib/ikonboard.cgi?s=3cfe33fc38b6ffff;act=ST;f=30;t=1 These new DVD Multi drives are not certified, nor required, to be compatible with DVD+R or DVD+RW media (but are fully compatible with DVD-R, DVD-RW, and DVD-RAM formats).

But since companies are in business to make money....I'm quite sure they'll read +RW media.

- DVD-R is still the chosen format for distribution for NLE users and post-prodcution houses. DVD+R/W has yet to penetrate this market - and probably never will (high-end NLE suppliers/distributors have yet to carry any DVD+R/W drives.) Again, why Sony selected DVD-R/W over DVD+R/W for their higher-end Vaio systems.

Vaio......high end.....buwhahahahahahaha!!!!!!!! You're such a tool.

- 4x and DVD-Multi certified DVD-R/-RW/RAM drives on the horizon. You may think that 2.4x DVD+R/W is fast (not really though - the extra 3-5 minutes over DVD-R burning is hardly that much faster) just wait until Sanyo releases their 4x DVD-R / 2x DVD-RW drive soon (end of the month in Japan, 2 or more months until a state-side release). At 4x writing a DVD-R full of video can be written to in about 12 minutes. I have not seen any announcements by the +RW Alliance yet on new, faster drives - and even Phillips is still rushing to get their act together and release their first drive that supports DVD+R! If Sanyo and Pioneer get their faster drives out and the +RW Alliance do not announce faster drives, or have no intention of doing so, that could be all she wrote, as I doubt the +RW Alliance wants to play catch-up all over again.

Well.....going from your 1x burning to 2.4X *IS* a big jump and when your 4x drive finally arrives.....it will be a huge increase....but for us at 2.4X....4x isn't that big of deal.

- Most of all the recent DVD players released are 100% compatible with DVD-R and even advertise that they play DVD-R! Toshiba even clearly prints that it can play DVD-R on the retail boxes of the SD-3755, SD-4700, and SD-5700. Panasonic is now starting to do the same, advertising on the box that the new RP-62K can play DVD-R. Due to logo/licensing DVD+R limitations, your normal consumer will not know if a certian player can or cannot play DVD+R/W media. Plus, I have yet to see ANY DVD+R compatibility list or database from any of the major supporters of DVD+R/W! How are consumers supposed to know if their player or new DVD players will work with DVD+R/W if this is not readily available!? If it were not for sites like vcdhelp, how would people know what players support DVD+R/W media?

Was in BB a few days ago.......didn't see a single DVD player that said anything about -RW or +RW....they're JUST NOW announcing compatibility with SVCD. Whoooopeee.

- Support. Pioneer has been pretty loyal with their customer base. We can truely say that this IS NOT the case with DVD+R/W drive suppliers - ie. HP. When DVD-RW was upgraded to v.2.0, all A03 users had to do was to download a FREE firmware update and presto! Fully compatible with new features. Ricoh, HP, and to an extent Philips (the major suppliers of DVD+R/W drives) led customers on with promised DVD+R write once features, and then later promised a free firmware update to make this happen. HP is currently tangled in a class action suit in Las Vegas about this (broken +R promise) and even if you have a DVD100i drive and want the +R write-once feature, not only do you have to send you drive back to HP, but pay them an additonal $100 for the feature that was originally promised for free! On top of that HP support and service is pretty much in the toliet. When it comes to overall support and service, it is no question that the DVD-R/W users have had smooth sailing, unlike the rough start and annoyances that DVD+R/W users have been currently experiencing.

Finally....you say something that is right on the money. Yes, the people who bought first generation +RW drives got screwed.....kinda.....HP is robbing people for another $99 but Philips is doing a free drive exchange. Sony NEVER claimed their 110 would be able to write to +R like Philips and HP did. Heck, even Ricoh (the makers of the OEM drive) said the drive could not write to +R media. So yes, I'm very upset about that situation but I sold my 1st gen. +RW on ebay and now have a Sony 120 and love it.

DVD-R is NOT more compatible that DVD+R!

Also, john1290, I'd check the posting guidelines, as your bordering on flaming, including name calling and insulting members here (this is not a DVDplusRW.org thread -- and a lot of members here at vcdhelp do not tolerate this). If you contunue to do so, you are only as good as your last post.

Kusanagi

Stop responding to me and stop lying about +RW and there won't be any problems.

[Kusanagi]

I'm tempted not to respond and get dragged into this, but I guess one more time would be okay ...

First, john1290, alot of your statements are wrong and all hypothetical, (and why the attitude problem, too?) let's begin shall we...

Again......who cares about a logo? Did you buy Michael "Air" Jordan tennis shoes when they came out? Cause you know....that Jordan logo on the side makes you jump higher and own other players on the bball courts.
My DVD+R discs lack the ever (NOT) important DVD video logo and they play P-E-R-F-E-C-T-L-Y in DVDrom/set top players and guess what....they don't have the logo cause the logo isn't important! Of course the DVD forum isn't going to give the "logo" to the competition. Thats like Ford saying........"since Chevy Suburban's don't have the Ford logo on the hood it isn't allowed to drive on the interstate." Get real.

That isn't a great comparison. Honestly, it can't even relate to what we are discussing (shoes and dvds?). Do you consider the new copy-protected CDs, CD-Audio? Well, according to Philips, they are not audio CDs. As Phillips, has pulled the use of the CD-Audio logo away from recording companies who use these new copy-protected schemes on newly released audio cds. Because of this action, consumers now know that these new CDs do not fit within the Audio CD standard and because of this are warned on what havoc they can do (such as the errors they are producing on certian Apple computers). This is the same as the logo used on DVD-R/W media. If a manufacturer uses the logo provided by the DVD Forum on either it be a DVD-ROM or DVD player, we and consumers alike, know that it can play DVD-R and/or DVD-R/W media. Without a logo, not only is DVD+R/W some sort of bastard of a format, but the general buying public has no clue if the specific device can play DVD+R or DVD+RW media. Thus, the importance of the logo certification process. This will also play a larger part soon, as the new DVD Multi drives are slowly being rolled out.

How about...."DVD-RW is more compatible in DVD-ROM drives because DVD-RW has been around for a few years MORE than DVD+RW but as time marches on, all DVD-ROMs will be able to read DVD+RW as well as DVD-RW."

You said it not me. But, your statement that "all DVD-ROMs will be able to read DVD+RW" is just an assumption at this point and only that. We already know that the new DVD Multi capable DVD-ROM drives will NOT play DVD+RW media, but will play DVD-R/-RW/RAM media fine.

First, only fools buy media like that in retail stores. -RW-R+RW+R media is expensive in ANY store. 2x -Rs and +Rs around around the same price online. FACT!

So, your calling the general buying public "fools"? Sorrrry, if we are not all as enlightened as you are. Retail purchases and prices still, and always will, be a deciding factor in this DVD recording format dispute.

Again....since +RW *JUST CAME OUT*, it will be a while before you see miniDVD recorders capable of using +R media. When -RW came out, did you have miniDVD camcorders or media 2 days later? NO!

Well, we still have not seen any announcement of any sort from the +RW Alliance that they intend to introduce a DVD+R/W camcorder, you would think that they would have shown something by now. Especially, with Hitachi introducing their second generation of DVD-R/RAM miniDVD camcorders. I don't believe we will see a DVD+R/W camcorder, as it would be too much for the +RW to play catch-up in the camcorder markets (they have their hands full with PC drives and settop recorder units), and DVD-R is more suited for video recording according to the latest media report published by Verbatim. Also, you have to remember that Hitachi, before the release of their new miniDVD camcorder line, did have their first generation miniDVD-RAM camcorder on the market for more than a year now. As soon as miniDVD-RAM media was announced, we DID see Hitachi release the first miniDVD camcorder which recorded video directly in MPEG2 on miniDVD-RAM shortly after.

But since companies are in business to make money....I'm quite sure they'll read +RW media.

I'm sure every company is playing both sides (ie. Verbatim, Memorex, etc.) to pull in a profit from this new DVD recording technology. But again, your statement of "I'm quite sure they'll read +RW media" is still just an assumption and not fact.

Vaio......high end.....buwhahahahahahaha!!!!!!!! You're such a tool

Again, why the attitude and insults? Why do you continue to be rude and insist on carring the smut from DVDplusRW.org here? Flamming around here does not carry over too well with vcdhelp members and moderation is not as lax as it is in DVDplusRW.org forums. Plus, your juvenile comments cause all your previous statements/responses to be just more frivolous.

If you think the hardware Sony is providing is not up to your personal "high end" standards then excuse us -- go complain to Sony, not to us here.

Well.....going from your 1x burning to 2.4X *IS* a big jump and when your 4x drive finally arrives.....it will be a huge increase....but for us at 2.4X....4x isn't that big of deal.

Going from 2x (or even 2.4x) to 4x is quite the jump. It cuts writing time literally in half. I guess for you a 4x CD-R/W writer is fine, as I'd take the 8x model any day over a 4x one. At 4x you can burn a full DVD-R (either it be data or video) in about 12 minutes. If your still using 2.4x, it would take around 23 minutes to burn a full DVD+R/W disc. I'd easily take the 12 minute burn time over the 23 minute one...I think anyone here would do the same.

Was in BB a few days ago.......didn't see a single DVD player that said anything about -RW or +RW....they're JUST NOW announcing compatibility with SVCD. Whoooopeee.

Well, your BB there must be only carrying last years models of DVD players to clear them out or just some Apex models. A quick trip here to my local BB, shows that most all new Sony, Panasonic, and Toshiba units are advertising that they can play DVD-R media (no mention of DVD+R/W media). The new hot features these days seem be DVD-R playback and MP3 CD playback. Sony, Panasonic, and Toshiba even print on their retail boxes that their DVD players can play and are compatible with DVD-R media (and use the DVD-R logo, too)! (Again, no mention of DVD+R/W playback on either models - the consumer is left to guess or bring a DVD+R/W sample disc to try)

DVD-R is NOT more compatible that DVD+R!

Well, if the +RW Alliance and manufacturers would post some official compatibility lists we could all see for sure without all this guessing. Again, presently, your statement is just a theory, but we will see in time.

Stop responding to me and stop lying about +RW and there won't be any problems.

LOL!

I'm just posting what is FACT. It is you who are getting so defensive (and why I have no clue) with all this. I won't respond to you again (and waste my time in the process), unless I see you spreading more assumptions and have to debunk all your biased statements which puts DVD+R/W on the pedastool it does not yet deserve.

The underlying truth is, is that each DVD recordable format has its strengths and weaknesses. I advise all to do research on what format is more suitable for your needs. Only then will you buy a drive, either it be + or - (or RAM), that is right for you.


Kusanagi

[john1290]

First, john1290, alot of your statements are wrong and all hypothetical, (and why the attitude problem, too?) let's begin shall we...

Like none of your statements are hypothetical? PLEASE! "there will be no miniDVD recorders that use DVD+R media".......what crystal ball did you pull that from?

That isn't a great comparison. Honestly, it can't even relate to what we are discussing (shoes and dvds?). Do you consider the new copy-protected CDs, CD-Audio? Well, according to Philips, they are not audio CDs. As Phillips, has pulled the use of the CD-Audio logo away from recording companies who use these new copy-protected schemes on newly released audio cds. Because of this action, consumers now know that these new CDs do not fit within the Audio CD standard and because of this are warned on what havoc they can do (such as the errors they are producing on certian Apple computers). This is the same as the logo used on DVD-R/W media. If a manufacturer uses the logo provided by the DVD Forum on either it be a DVD-ROM or DVD player, we and consumers alike, know that it can play DVD-R and/or DVD-R/W media. Without a logo, not only is DVD+R/W some sort of bastard of a format, but the general buying public has no clue if the specific device can play DVD+R or DVD+RW media. Thus, the importance of the logo certification process. This will also play a larger part soon, as the new DVD Multi
drives are slowly being rolled out.

Why are you so hung up on labels and logos? As if any of those mean squat. My Sony DVD player didn't have a "reads DVD+RW and DVD+R" sticker on it when I bought it a few years ago but guess what......it reads both!!! OMG!!!!!!! Hard to believe eh? Same for audio CDs. If I buy an audio CD......which I haven't done since I heard my first MP3 MANY years ago...... if the label says "If you play this disc, you'll set your house on fire"....I'd still buy it. If I bought a new audio CD that didn't have the precious label from Philips saying "CD Audio" or whatever....and it might not work or cause my stereo to lock up.....if I had problems with it, I'd take it back and get a FULL refund and dive into MP3s. No big loss.

First, only fools buy media like that in retail stores. -RW-R+RW+R media is expensive in ANY store. 2x -Rs and +Rs around around the same price online. FACT!

So, your calling the general buying public "fools"? Sorrrry, if we are not all as enlightened as you are. Retail purchases and prices still, and always will, be a deciding factor in this DVD recording format dispute.

If the shoe fits..............

Well, we still have not seen any announcement of any sort from the +RW Alliance that they intend to introduce a DVD+R/W camcorder, you would think that they would have shown something by now. Especially, with Hitachi introducing their second generation of DVD-R/RAM miniDVD camcorders. I don't believe we will see a DVD+R/W camcorder

Man.......you give me crap for making hypothetical statements....what's that?

Vaio......high end.....buwhahahahahahaha!!!!!!!! You're such a tool

Again, why the attitude and insults? Why do you continue to be rude and insist on carring the smut from DVDplusRW.org here? Flamming around here does not carry over too well with vcdhelp members and moderation is not as lax as it is in DVDplusRW.org forums. Plus, your juvenile comments cause all your previous statements/responses just more frivolous.

The Sony Vaio is hardly what I'd call a high end system. It's a high end door stop. I have many Sony products in my house. I love the company but you thinking that Sony not shipping their 'high end vaio's' with +RW drive is the end of the world for +RW is far from reality.

If you think the hardware Sony is providing is not up to your personal "high end" standards then excuse us -- go complain to Sony, not to us here.

I'm curious....before you respond to me....do you actually read YOUR posts? I LOVE Sony stuff. I just think you calling the vaio, high end, is a joke. Have you ever used a Vaio? Nothing special.

Going from 2x (or even 2.4x) to 4x is quite the jump. It cuts writing time literally in half. I guess for you a 4x CD-R/W writer is fine, as I'd take the 8x model any day over a 4x one. At 4x you can burn a full DVD-R (either it be data or video) in about 12 minutes. If your still using 2.4x, it would take around 23 minutes to burn a full DVD+R/W disc. I'd easily take the 12 minute burn time over the 23 minute one...I think anyone here would do the same.

When I showed a friend my +RW drive burning at 2.4X and how fast it was compared to his Pioneer burning at 1x.....he was amazed. It's all about the burning speed. Listen closely........if/when Pioneer makes a 4x or 8x DVD burner......I'll probably buy one!!!!!!!!!!!! Hear that? I don't hate -RW but I do hate people who instantly shoot +RW down and call it crap because they happen to own the competition. Why does the +RW threaten you so much? Do you have feelings of.....you know........male "inadequacies"???

Well, your BB there must be only carrying last years models of DVD players to clear them out or just some Apex models. A quick trip here to my local BB, shows that most all new Sony, Panasonic, and Toshiba units are advertising that they can play DVD-R media (no mention of DVD+R/W media). The new hot features these days seem be DVD-R playback and MP3 CD playback. Sony, Panasonic, and Toshiba even print on their retail boxes that their DVD players can play and are compatible with DVD-R media (and use the DVD-R logo, too)! (Again, no mention of DVD+R/W playback on either models - the consumer is left to guess or bring a DVD+R/W sample disc to try)

Since +R is AS COMPATIBLE as -R.....if a DVD player has the precious 'DVD video' logo....hahahaha....my +R disc will work just as well as your -R disc. And yes, the consumer can bring a DVD+R disc with them. I see people doing this ALL the time at Circuit City....Sears....BB....no big whoop.

DVD-R is NOT more compatible that DVD+R!

Well, if the +RW Alliance and manufacturers would post some official compatibility lists we could all see for sure without all this guessing. Again, presently, your statement is just a theory, but we will see in time.

No theory...fact. Go read some articles on ZDNet....Cnet.....CNN.... +R is turning out to be just as compatible as DVD-R. Example....if they both reflect 70% of the laser.....how is -R better than +R? I've seen set top DVD players CHOKE on -R and play +R perfectly. Explain that!

Stop responding to me and stop lying about +RW and there won't be any problems.

LOL!

LOL!

The underlying truth is, is that each DVD recordable format has its strengths and weaknesses. I advise all to do research on what format is more suitable for your needs. Only then will you buy a drive, either it be + or - (or RAM), that is right for you.

I totally agree!!!!! And same goes for you.......don't go around and lie about +RW. Both formats are OK in my book. BTW......how fast can you burn CDRs on that -RW drive you got? What's it at.... .3X? 1.7X?

[mpb]

You guys supporting +rw must have some amazing intolerance for .4 speed burning differentials.

Look, DVD-RW is the standard. It just is. In tech, always go with the standard. Ask anyone who bought Betamax, HST, or Sega Saturn. Sure, you'll have fun for a while with some gee-whiz effects that the standard type can't do, but in the end, if you want to read and write compatibly with everyone, you'll need to run industry-standard equipment.

Macs use the Pioneer 104 for their Superdrive, and their entire new-age new-hot-thing reputation is built on DVD features. They did not make that decision lightly. Were they right? Well, those waiting lists for the new Powermacs and new iMacs exist for a reason.

Sony, makers of what is actually a great DVD+RW drive, probably the best +RW drive that made it to market, started putting Pioneer 104 drives in their top-end VAIO computers starting Q2-2002. Sony is no longer developing new DVD+RW equipment. They will support their existing +RW burners until they die, however.

I bought the HP +RW burner, had problems getting many set-top players to read my discs. Made a big family films/camcordered-videos DVD to show at a wedding, and nobody could dig up a player that would play the thing. Later I bought an apex player which does fine with them, but the damage was done. The HP drive went back to whence it was spawned, and I bought the Pioneer drive from esbuy for about $350.

It's been smooth sailing ever since. Well, keeping in mind that the video preparation is its own challenge. But once I have the content prepared properly, I run into nearly zero problems with delivery.

DVD-R/-RW is how it's gonna be from here on out. 4x and 8x players will come out, and all the 2.4x argument advocates are going to sound like the numbnuts who used to champion their Zyxel modems since they were the first to go 16,800bps while the rest of us ran HSTs or V.32's at 14.4k. A year later, 28.8k was the standard. Two years later, dialup was maxed out. Now, nothing but DSL or cable will suffice. Tomorrow...???

One thing I find odd is that Plextor has not made a DVD burning drive of any standard. Since they are the first and last name in CDR/W drives, I can't wait to see what they're going to put out for us videophiles.

-Mike

[Faustus]

I just purchased my DVD-RW drive recently, and before I did had to decide if I would get it or +RW.

Media price did play a big roll as well as the fact that (AT THE TIME) the +R disk were not out yet. Even if I usually buy off of the net I do sometime end up with locally purchased disk, so the $5 each apple disk are kinda nice.

Also I do personally take comfort in the fact that a very large number of companys back my format, this ensures great competition from media manufacuters as well as drive manufactuers within my chosen format. That way prices go down and speeds go up... its just the natual process of things. Therefore to me the logo DOES mean something.

Heck I remember when I head about the recording companies not able to the the CD logo on their protected disk... I laughed it serves them right for altering the agreed upon standard...

Are DVD+RW and +R disk as compatable as the -Rs that I use? From my net research the answer is No, not quite. But then I could be wrong...

All in all my Pioneer DVR-104 makes data disk that I can read on my computer and most of my friends (one will not upgrade from his first Gen DVD drive...sheesh) and I can burn video that reads on all DVD players I've had a chance to try (long as I use good media... thank you apple) so I'm very happy with my -RW drive. But of course, to each their own...

[john1290]

Look, DVD-RW is the standard. It just is. In tech, always go with the standard. Ask anyone who bought Betamax, HST, or Sega Saturn. Sure, you'll have fun for a while with some gee-whiz effects that the standard type can't do, but in the end, if you want to read and write compatibly with everyone, you'll need to run industry-standard equipment.

Damn.....are people like you brain damaged? What don't you understand.....DVD-R and DVD+R are the SAME in the compatibility dept. How is -R better? I never bought a Betamax, did have an HST modem though since it was the first on the market to offer that blazing speed of 14.4 and never had a sega saturn.

Macs use the Pioneer 104 for their Superdrive, and their entire new-age new-hot-thing reputation is built on DVD features. They did not make that decision lightly. Were they right? Well, those waiting lists for the new Powermacs and new iMacs exist for a reason.

God.....are you gonna be like what's his name and tell me since macs use the -RW standard, -RW rules the universe? Lemme guess....you consider macs high end, right? HA!

Sony, makers of what is actually a great DVD+RW drive, probably the best +RW drive that made it to market, started putting Pioneer 104 drives in their top-end VAIO computers starting Q2-2002. Sony is no longer developing new DVD+RW equipment. They will support their existing +RW burners until they die, however.

Have a link I can read to back that up? Not the part about the 'mighty' vaio....but that part about them no longer developing new +RW equipment??? Didn't think so.

I bought the HP +RW burner, had problems getting many set-top players to read my discs. Made a big family films/camcordered-videos DVD to show at a wedding, and nobody could dig up a player that would play the thing. Later I bought an apex player which does fine with them, but the damage was done. The HP drive went back to whence it was spawned, and I bought the Pioneer drive from esbuy for about $350.

You would have problems getting set top DVD players to play -RW discs too!!! Don't point this out as some flaw in +RWs!!!! As far as RWs are concerned.....both suck for player compatibility...-RW AND +RW.......-R and +R is where it's at! What kind of bizarro wedding was this that people needed to rush home and unhook their DVD players so the nerd of the family could throw up some videos on a blank wall? A true, super geek would have "borrowed" an Infocus Proxima projector and a laptop from work and projected a huge picture on a wall.

It's been smooth sailing ever since. Well, keeping in mind that the video preparation is its own challenge. But once I have the content prepared properly, I run into nearly zero problems with delivery.

I don't have problems with my DVD+R media either. I've made about $300+ burning movies to DVD+R for friends and family and I'm putting that towards the next DVD burner that raises the bar to 4x or 8x....-RW or +RW.....I could care less.........I've had no problems at all 'cause I know my limitations and if watching Dirty Harry movies has taught me anything is that a good man always knows his limitations.

DVD-R/-RW is how it's gonna be from here on out. 4x and 8x players will come out, and all the 2.4x argument advocates are going to sound like the numbnuts who used to champion their Zyxel modems since they were the first to go 16,800bps while the rest of us ran HSTs or V.32's at 14.4k. A year later, 28.8k was the standard. Two years later, dialup was maxed out. Now, nothing but DSL or cable will suffice. Tomorrow...???

Why do you and kasishi-bukkae keep avoiding my main questions?

A) If DVD-RW was so god awful super duper....why did other companies see fit to introduce +RW?

B) Since -R and +R are the EXACT same in the compatibility dept., why do you still think/say -R is better?

BTW....if it wasn't for +RW and 2.4X burning.......you poor lemmings would still be wasting away at 1x and 2x burning since Pioneer would have ZERO incentive to give you anything faster.......now that vastly superior competition has arrived, NOW they announce 4x DVD burners......you're welcome.

BTW....how's CDR burning on YOUR drive? Might speedy at what... 1.4x?

[john1290]

Media price did play a big roll as well as the fact that (AT THE TIME) the +R disk were not out yet. Even if I usually buy off of the net I do sometime end up with locally purchased disk, so the $5 each apple disk are kinda nice.

$5 each? OUCH! Guess you need to pay that for those "certified" 2x discs. I'll keep buying my HP DVD+R discs for around $3.80 a pop. ..... ... .... $5....hahahaha .....guess you made the wrong choice.......should have got a +RW drive....cheaper media.

Also I do personally take comfort in the fact that a very large number of companys back my format, this ensures great competition from media manufacuters as well as drive manufactuers within my chosen format. That way prices go down and speeds go up... its just the natual process of things. Therefore to me the logo DOES mean something.

Great competition.....you're media is down to $5 a piece.......hahahah. Man, am I the only one who can see the irony in your sentences? And again with the logo stuff...... you're a tool too. I have NO brand loyalty. Who ever is fastest and has the best prices........I'll buy it.

Heck I remember when I head about the recording companies not able to the the CD logo on their protected disk... I laughed it serves them right for altering the agreed upon standard...

Umm...yeah........oooooooooookkkkkkkk. (Basically.....I have NO idea what you're saying here............)

Are DVD+RW and +R disk as compatable as the -Rs that I use? From my net research the answer is No, not quite. But then I could be wrong...

Well....I'm glad you at least know you're wrong........

All in all my Pioneer DVR-104 makes data disk that I can read on my computer and most of my friends (one will not upgrade from his first Gen DVD drive...sheesh) and I can burn video that reads on all DVD players I've had a chance to try (long as I use good media... thank you apple) so I'm very happy with my -RW drive. But of course, to each their own...

Most of your friends? Don't you mean your mom and the guy you met online playing 'What to do if I ever get to 1st base v3.4'? I can burn +R all day and I have YET to come across a set top DVD player or DVDROM that failed to read my discs.

And for the logo nazis out there.......I've seen some single sided dual layer (DVD-9) movies with that super duper incredible gotta have it DVD logo FAIL, yes FAIL on a few set top DVD players! O_M_G....I just heard your worlds crumble...............guess that logo didn't mean squat after all ........... buck up campers.........tomorrow is a better day.

......" was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor....."
...... " HELL NO ......"

Lighten up guys..........I'm just having fun............may both formats go in peace......is that to much to ask?

[Kusanagi]

Wow, some one really needs to give this john1290 a good tongue-lashing or the boot. Not only did he jump into this discussion and insult away, but he's plain-out wrong on several points. I'm only going to comment on a few things, as this discussion is gradually being blown way out of proportion --

God.....are you gonna be like what's his name and tell me since macs use the -RW standard, -RW rules the universe? Lemme guess....you consider macs high end, right? HA!

I guess you haven't stepped into a professional NLE studio or post-production facility. Guess what? They all use "high-end" dual-processor Apple G4s running Final Cut Pro 3 or Media100, not a single PC in sight. Even Oscar-award winning director Steven Soderbergh is editing his digital films on a Power Mac G4 running Final Cut Pro 3. Don't believe me? Then see - http://www.apple.com/hotnews/articles/2002/04/fullfrontal/fullfrontal1.html HA! And btw, they have SuperDrives in those G4s (DVD-R/W), no DVD+R/W here.

Why do you and kasishi-bukkae keep avoiding my main questions?

You could show a little respect to us posting here and other vcdhelp members. I still don't understand why you're so defensive and huffy-puffy about all this. Maybe your trying to assure yourself that buying that DVD+R/W drive was the right choice. Well, if video is your main game, sorry you did not choose wisely (this, according to the new report by Verbatim).

BTW....how's CDR burning on YOUR drive? Might speedy at what... 1.4x

This just further proves how little you really know. The Pioneer A04 can burn CD-R media at 8x and write to CD-RW media at 4x. However, I don't think people are really buying DVD-R/W drives to just burn to CD-R/W media. I know many members here use a dedicated CD-R/W writer from Plextor, Lite-On, Sony, or Yamaha when burning to CD-R/W media and soley use their DVD-R/W drives to write DVDs (and IMHO that is the best config until the new Sanyo or DVD Multi certified writers become available).

Lighten up guys..........I'm just having fun............

I guess insulting members here and you flaming away is your definition of 'fun'?


Kusanagi

[jowel13]

Again, Article from zdnet about DVD+R vs. DVD-R

Article on DVD+R vs. DVD-R from zdnet...

http://www.zdnet.com/products/stories/reviews/0,4161,2868531,00.html

"But performance is only one criterion for judging DVD recordable drives, especially if you plan to burn home-movie discs. A preburned DVD+R provided by HP worked in every player we tested it in, including some real antiques that wouldn't play DVD-Rs. This initial success is promising, but it's still early in the DVD+R game; we'll continue to test this disc and others we've burned ourselves in as many drives and players we can."

Note: Whether one is "backed" by the industry or not it doesn't mean it's AUTOMATICALLY more compatible than the other.

Give it some time and let the experts make their full reviews. Both formats have their advantages and disadvantages, so quit all the flaming, it's pointless.

[jugernaut]

If DVD-RW was so god awful super duper....why did other companies see fit to introduce +RW

.

From what i know, only the ones with a license fee cut has used the +rw/r format. Also if you see Ron's review of a +RW desktop recorder, you will see, he recognized +rw has more problems that -rw, even as he receive one free!! www.hometheaterforum.com.

Also don´t mess with the apple's, i´m a pc fan and i have not an apple but i respect macs because they have always been a step forward in video than PC's. Also remember they choose dvd-r/-rw over dvd-r/ram, and they wait until -rw appear to fully promote those Apple's, they don't do that with ram drives. Something to think about, no?

[mpb]

Look, DVD-RW is the standard. It just is. In tech, always go with the standard. Ask anyone who bought Betamax, HST, or Sega Saturn. Sure, you'll have fun for a while with some gee-whiz effects that the standard type can't do, but in the end, if you want to read and write compatibly with everyone, you'll need to run industry-standard equipment.

Damn.....are people like you brain damaged? What don't you understand.....DVD-R and DVD+R are the SAME in the compatibility dept. How is -R better? I never bought a Betamax, did have an HST modem though since it was the first on the market to offer that blazing speed of 14.4 and never had a sega saturn.

John, you just answered your own question. HST was inferior to v.32bis, but was released over a year sooner. HST used 14.4k (9600 at first) mainchannels with a 450 baud backchannel to accomplish good transfers going one way. Bridge financing. A stopgap solution. Sufficient for downloading "warez" off BBSes, but not good for interactive connectivity. The CCITT standards were high-speed on both channels. HST was expensive and early adopters loved it because of the speed, but a scant short time later, they could only connect at 2400 to the rest of the world, excepting only those warez-hounds with the foresight to fork over MORE money for a Dual Standard USR Courier. USR themselves abandoned HST soon after.

***They cut corners in order to make a quick buck, but their innovation didn't stick because it wasn't ideal for use as the final standard.***

DSL has this problem now. Cable is whipping it's ass, 70-30%, among all broadband home users nationwide. go to speedtest.com for details, since you're a ******* source whiner. I have more coming.

And DVD+RW has this problem now, more than ever.

Macs use the Pioneer 104 for their Superdrive, and their entire new-age new-hot-thing reputation is built on DVD features. They did not make that decision lightly. Were they right? Well, those waiting lists for the new Powermacs and new iMacs exist for a reason.

God.....are you gonna be like what's his name and tell me since macs use the -RW standard, -RW rules the universe? Lemme guess....you consider macs high end, right? HA!

For working with VIDEO (which I heard some of us are doing these days), yes a dual processor powermac is the best home system you can pick up. I can build an amazing PC from components, but the performance of a PC-class CISC processor is so fundamentally inferior to the G4's the Mac is using, that even without all the video optimizations that apple has added, they'd still mop the floor with PCs for performance across the board. See www.apple.com/powermac for more on this.

And since macs are immensely popular among new computer buyers right now, that means thousands upon thousands of people are putting DVD-RW drives in their living rooms. Ask Nintendo what happens in the market when a company's standard has a large installed user base. They've been on the good side (NES) and the bad side (N64) of that phenomenon.

Sony, makers of what is actually a great DVD+RW drive, probably the best +RW drive that made it to market, started putting Pioneer 104 drives in their top-end VAIO computers starting Q2-2002. Sony is no longer developing new DVD+RW equipment. They will support their existing +RW burners until they die, however.

Have a link I can read to back that up? Not the part about the 'mighty' vaio....but that part about them no longer developing new +RW equipment??? Didn't think so.

Go to http://www.vaio.net/series_compare.htm and look at the DVD link. This page has been updated to Sony's current model year. Not a +RW in sight among their ENTIRE 2002-2003 product line.

Then go to sony.com and search for "DVD+RW". The page will respond with "Search Results - Your search for "DVD+RW" returned the following results: The Official Sony Site for DVD+RW - Sony Electronics -
http://www.ita.sel.sony.com/jump/storage/dvdrw ".

IT'S A DEAD LINK. Happy times.
It gets better. Another link it gives you is to allow you to configure your new Sony PC with a +RW drive. When you actually click on the link and look at the new page, you only have the option of -RW.

I'm done giving URL references to the things I say. I have reasonably proven to be more credible as a reference than you have in this thread. Aside from your smartass "didn't think so" remarks, you haven't said much of substance. 2.4x to 2.0x is NOT a huge speed difference. I'm sorry, it's just not. Deal with it.

You would have problems getting set top DVD players to play -RW discs too!!! Don't point this out as some flaw in +RWs!!!! As far as RWs are concerned.....both suck for player compatibility...-RW AND +RW.......-R and +R is where it's at! What kind of bizarro wedding was this that people needed to rush home and unhook their DVD players so the nerd of the family could throw up some videos on a blank wall? A true, super geek would have "borrowed" an Infocus Proxima projector and a laptop from work and projected a huge picture on a wall.

See, I'm not some ******* geek. I'm just a normal guy, and since I'm educated, I can configure and use computer equipment well. Part of the wedding, which was held at the groom's parents' country home, was supposed to be a really fun look at the history of the bride and groom growing up, as painstakingly captured and converted by myself from old videotapes and newer 8MM and DV. Fortunately, I had the foresight to bring the show on a VHS tape as well. Everyone got to watch it eventually on the widescreen tv from tape, but it was embarrassing and frustrating to not get a burned DVD to work in any of the three players in the house, or that of the neighbors who volunteered to get theirs. BTW... my DVD-R's play in every player I have tried. Period.

Why do you and kasishi-bukkae keep avoiding my main questions?

A) If DVD-RW was so god awful super duper....why did other companies see fit to introduce +RW?

I avoid nothing. I didn't answer your questions before because the answers should be common knowledge. Since you apparently never got on the clue train, here's the 411.

Why develop +RW at all? 1) Licensing. 2) They found a method of cutting corners to get a quick speed boost which could increase short-term profitability and would only piss off early adopters when they had to kill it. 3) Media profits. Any disc media is obscenely cheap to manufacture. Why do you imagine they charge so much more for +RW? You know damned good and well it costs precisely the same amount to make as -RW. and 4) Because tech companies are willing to gamble on the possibility of an against-all-odds payoff, a la DVD itself, which was supposed to never be good enough supplant laserdisc among videophiles, but seemed like a solid throw of the dice at the time.

B) Since -R and +R are the EXACT same in the compatibility dept., why do you still think/say -R is better?

1) Incorrect... on this very site you'll see stats on compatibility... -R plays on 90% of set-tops, +R/RW on 70%.

BTW,.if it wasn't for +RW and 2.4X burning.......you poor lemmings would still be wasting away at 1x and 2x burning since Pioneer would have ZERO incentive to give you anything faster.......now that vastly superior competition has arrived, NOW they announce 4x DVD burners......you're welcome.

Also incorrect. If it were possible to make a cheap 4x DVD-RW burner and Pioneer did not do it out of the market greed you're implying they have, then Plextor and Cendyne and all the other folks would, making tons of money by being first to market with the newest, fastest thing, and Pioneer would be forced to play catch-up. And they'd lose their market share doing it. Ah, capitalism. Why the hell do you think Pioneer released the 104 when the 103 was the best-selling burner on the market and was enjoying critical and user acclaim??? They could have sat and milked it for a while. They streamlined their drive, cut costs even more, made it even more stable, and enjoyed the continued profitability by releasing an even better new product.

BTW....how's CDR burning on YOUR drive? Might speedy at what... 1.4x?

You must just be trolling.. the 104 burns CDRs at 8x. This is common knowledge. And I can always throw discs into the 40/12/40 Plexwriter below it, if I'm in a hurry. It's hard to justify keeping that... I keep it mainly so I don't wear out the new DVD-R burner on CDs. Since 8x is still only a few minutes per disc. It's effectively as fast as anyone needs it to be.

-Mike

[mpb]

BTW... anyone paying $5 for -R media is silly. Primedisc and the esbuy media run $1.80-$2.20 per (depending on quantity) and they burn perfectly well. The Primediscs especially. The ones I bought had japanese labels. I can't believe how perfect they have been...

-Mike

[john1290]

I guess you haven't stepped into a professional NLE studio or post-production facility. Guess what? They all use "high-end" dual-processor Apple G4s running Final Cut Pro 3 or Media100, not a single PC in sight. Even Oscar-award winning director Steven Soderbergh is editing his digital films on a Power Mac G4 running Final Cut Pro 3. Don't believe me? Then see - http://www.apple.com/hotnews/articles/2002/04/fullfrontal/fullfrontal1.html HA! And btw, they have SuperDrives in those G4s (DVD-R/W), no DVD+R/W here.

I believe ya....I just don't care. macs suck. period. FACT. Then again, they do have a mac logo on 'em....guess they are super cool then?

You could show a little respect to us posting here and other vcdhelp members. I still don't understand why you're so defensive and huffy-puffy about all this. Maybe your trying to assure yourself that buying that DVD+R/W drive was the right choice. Well, if video is your main game, sorry you did not choose wisely (this, according to the new report by Verbatim).

I went with +R for speed and video. I have made the right choice since I haven't come across a set top DVD player or DVD rom that has failed to read my +R media. Again, you have no point.

This just further proves how little you really know. The Pioneer A04 can burn CD-R media at 8x and write to CD-RW media at 4x. However, I don't think people are really buying DVD-R/W drives to just burn to CD-R/W media. I know many members here use a dedicated CD-R/W writer from Plextor, Lite-On, Sony, or Yamaha when burning to CD-R/W media and soley use their DVD-R/W drives to write DVDs (and IMHO that is the best config until the new Sanyo or DVD Multi certified writers become available).

I don't need a dedicated burner because my Sony can burn CDRs at 12x and CDRW at 10x. I can understand your need for an extra drive to augment your slow burning -RW.

[Kusanagi]

*Yawn* here we go again...I guess it's troll feeding time...

I just don't care. macs suck. period. FACT.

Sorry, you are wrong again (I see a pattern of error emerging from you). Macs do not suck, I think you = teh suck.

If Macs sucked sooo bad according to you, why do we see them in almost every post-production facility running Final Cut Pro 3 and Media100 on them. Apple machines are the dominant choice and chosen machine for most of all professional editors from Hollywood types (ie. Steven Soderbergh, again see - http://www.apple.com/hotnews/articles/2002/04/fullfrontal/fullfrontal1.html ) to smaller post-production facilities doing small distribution on DVD-R. Your PC (and if sooo great, please share with us your system specs, now that vcdhelp has added that option) just would not cut it.

I went with +R for speed and video. I have made the right choice since I haven't come across a set top DVD player or DVD rom that has failed to read my +R media. Again, you have no point.

Again, you have no point. How many DVD players did you test your DVD+R disc on? 2? 3? Come on now, stop kidding us - because you tested it on your personal DVD players it is now sooo much better than DVD-R. Even the vcdhelp compatibility chart here clearly shows DVD-R media to be 90% compatible as DVD+R is still showing around 70% (this was also confirmed in mpb's post).

I don't need a dedicated burner because my Sony can burn CDRs at 12x and CDRW at 10x. I can understand your need for an extra drive to augment your slow burning -RW.

Eeek! 12x and 10x, wow that is slow, I feel bad for you. My Plextor can burn at 40x, and most new burners on the market can reach 52x write speeds. Your 12x and 10x look pretty pathetic when compared to a dedicated CD-R/W burner unit.


Kusanagi

[john1290]

John, you just answered your own question. HST was inferior to v.32bis, but was released over a year sooner. HST used 14.4k (9600 at first) mainchannels with a 450 baud backchannel to accomplish good transfers going one way. Bridge financing. A stopgap solution. Sufficient for downloading "warez" off BBSes, but not good for interactive connectivity. The CCITT standards were high-speed on both channels. HST was expensive and early adopters loved it because of the speed, but a scant short time later, they could only connect at 2400 to the rest of the world, excepting only those warez-hounds with the foresight to fork over MORE money for a Dual Standard USR Courier. USR themselves abandoned HST soon after.

HST was first with 14.4. The BBSes I leeched from were warez sites so I had NO problems connecting at high speed. When I needed 28.8, I went away from HST. Of course, if DVD-R goes to 8x next year.....I'll gladly sell my +RW 2.4x drive and buy a -RW drive. Unlike you, I don't hate the competition....I'll go with whoever is quick on the draw like the horse from the cartoon.....boom sha lock lock boom........

DSL has this problem now. Cable is whipping it's ass, 70-30%, among all broadband home users nationwide. go to speedtest.com for details, since you're a ******* source whiner. I have more coming.

Whoah......first off, easy with the language son........secondly, this is a discussion about -RW and +RW.....not cable modems and HSTs.....focus kid.........focus.

For working with VIDEO (which I heard some of us are doing these days), yes a dual processor powermac is the best home system you can pick up. I can build an amazing PC from components, but the performance of a PC-class CISC processor is so fundamentally inferior to the G4's the Mac is using, that even without all the video optimizations that apple has added, they'd still mop the floor with PCs for performance across the board. See www.apple.com/powermac for more on this.

Actually.......a dual AMD system is better......or maybe dual Xeon....then again, those are pricey.........like your 2x certified dvd-r media vs. +R media. LO LO LO

And since macs are immensely popular among new computer buyers right now, that means thousands upon thousands of people are putting DVD-RW drives in their living rooms. Ask Nintendo what happens in the market when a company's standard has a large installed user base. They've been on the good side (NES) and the bad side (N64) of that phenomenon.

Actually......macs are popular among the uneducated and people drawn in by commercials.........basically people with no free thought. Sheeps.

Then go to sony.com and search for "DVD+RW". The page will respond with "Search Results - Your search for "DVD+RW" returned the following results: The Official Sony Site for DVD+RW - Sony Electronics -
http://www.ita.sel.sony.com/jump/storage/dvdrw ".

Go to HP.COM and search for DVD+RW........brings back nothing but MINUS RW.....guess HP doesn't support +RW either eh? BTW....nice job finding a dead link on Sony's Italian server......wow....a link with dvdrw in it and it didn't work......and you equate that to Sony hating/not supporting +RW? Hmmmmmmm....try this on for size......there was this link I went to that had scientific fact that you're a virgin.....dvd+rw will replace -rw in maxipads and sony will be giving away free +rw media for life for anyone who calls the number in the link. The address for all this is http://www.sony.give away.plusrw_rules.1800-cgi.macs_blow.com/get_a_life.shtml ..... wait....man....the site must be down........oh well, take my word for it.

IT'S A DEAD LINK. Happy times.

My link is dead too......happy times!!!!!!

It gets better. Another link it gives you is to allow you to configure your new Sony PC with a +RW drive. When you actually click on the link and look at the new page, you only have the option of -RW.

I once saw a typo in an article on cnn.com. Guess they can't afford word processors and surely this is proof that -ram is the media of choice.
http://www.sonystyle.com/vaio/storage/index.shtml

See, I'm not some ******* geek. I'm just a normal guy, and since I'm educated, I can configure and use computer equipment well. Part of the wedding, which was held at the groom's parents' country home, was supposed to be a really fun look at the history of the bride and groom growing up, as painstakingly captured and converted by myself from old videotapes and newer 8MM and DV. Fortunately, I had the foresight to bring the show on a VHS tape as well. Everyone got to watch it eventually on the widescreen tv from tape, but it was embarrassing and frustrating to not get a burned DVD to work in any of the three players in the house, or that of the neighbors who volunteered to get theirs. BTW... my DVD-R's play in every player I have tried. Period.

Again kid....what's with the language son? Does your mom know you talk like this? As for the wedding/video mixup.....it is to laugh. If this event actually did happen.... I can imagine it now.....you, telling all your "friends" what a video/computer/dvd video logo/dvd expert you are yet you somehow screwed up the most important moment of somebodies life with your antics. Maybe this was just a ploy to be at the center of attention? BTW, my DVD+Rs play in EVERY player and DVDROM I've tried them in. Can you say the same? Didn't think so!

1) Incorrect... on this very site you'll see stats on compatibility... -R plays on 90% of set-tops, +R/RW on 70%.

Where's your proof? Did you personally run around to every DVD player on the planet, all the while screwing up home movies and weddings, with a dvd-r and DVD+R disc in hand and test them yourself? Man....that would take a lot of time.........then again, since you're burning dvd media at 1x you probably have LOTS of time on your hands. What I wanna know is.....what's IN your hands? You perverted little man.

You must just be trolling.. the 104 burns CDRs at 8x. This is common knowledge. And I can always throw discs into the 40/12/40 Plexwriter below it, if I'm in a hurry. It's hard to justify keeping that... I keep it mainly so I don't wear out the new DVD-R burner on CDs. Since 8x is still only a few minutes per disc. It's effectively as fast as anyone needs it to be.

I burn CDRs at 12x and CDRW at 10x on my DVD+RW drive. Can you do that on your -rw? Fact: NO! PERIOD! FACT! NO!

[john1290]

BTW... anyone paying $5 for -R media is silly. Primedisc and the esbuy media run $1.80-$2.20 per (depending on quantity) and they burn perfectly well. The Primediscs especially. The ones I bought had japanese labels. I can't believe how perfect they have been...

-Mike

Ummmm....no...$5 for 2x certified quality -r media is about right. Why don't you say ....$1.80-$2.20 for >1X<.........? Ashamed? I'd be.

[Kusanagi]

Ok, enough.

I advise everyone just to ignore john1290, all of his lunatic posts and stop feeding this troll (go back under the bridge from which you came).


Kusanagi

[john1290]

Eeek! 12x and 10x, wow that is slow, I feel bad for you. My Plextor can burn at 40x, and most new burners on the market can reach 52x write speeds. Your 12x and 10x look pretty pathetic when compared to a dedicated CD-R/W burner unit.


Kusanagi

Since my +RW drive burns CDR/W at an acceptable speed, I'm happy with it. No need to add another drive to my system. *YAWN*....FACT.......BAM! LOL BAM.....FACT. PERIOD! DVD LOGO, BAM!