Low quality video from Video Cassette to VCD

[owh_bn]

I have a D-Link (cheaper type) video capture box (USB). I used this device and followed the vcdhelp guidelines to capture my video tape into PC (Huffyuv codec and VirtualDub). Then converted them into VCD (TMPGEnc and Nero). I used the recommended capture size (352x288). However the resultant VCD has very bad video quality -- lots of 'pixels' observed.
I was thinking to buy a better video capture but found that my friend's Snazzi gave the same quality VCD. I have searched for more information on vcdhelp but there was no mention of reasons and solutions towards low video quality (lots of 'pixels' and blurred video).
Eventually I bought an Amoisonic VCDR recorder and found that it delivers better quality VCD but still 'pixels' are observed.
How do I produce VCD of equivalent quality (from bare eyes) as that on video tape? I hope someone can help me on this matter. I just want to convert all my video tape into VCD with good quality (just like VCD movie or equivalent to the original video). Sorry for my inability to express questions. Thank you for any help provided.

[Videopimp]

the problem is with your source

a VHS is bad to begin with then if its not in SP format and its a copy of a copy it gets even worse


also what resolution are you trying to CAP in? and what codecs are you using?

standard VCD cap res is 352x240 NTSC (THIS IMO IS NOT SUITABLE WHEN COMING FROM VHS)


try capping in 640x480 or higher if possible

[owh_bn]

Thank you very much for the reply.
My source appears to be very clear when played on video cassette player. I think most of my sources are PAL, but some are NTSC (sorry that I am quite new in this). They are in SP.
I have tried to capture at the recommended VCD resolution (352x288) using the recommended Huffyuv codec (best?). My video capture device is D-Link DU-CV USB Video Grabber connected to notebook computer (PIII 1GHz, 32MB Video RAM, 256MB RAM, 30GB HDD). I have also tried to use the Snazzi capture device and obtained same quality -- obvious pixels on the VCD video (they appear ok when viewed on PC with small window).
You have recommended me to use 640x480 resolution or higher (how high? Please recommend as I am after quality and would try to buy for good device) -- but my device has a maximum capture size of 352x288. That means I have to buy new capture device -- do you have any recommendation? I am not sure what to buy, after two devices didn't give me good result.
Thank you again.

[macleod]

steer clear of usb solutions. You need to get either a dedicated video capture card or a tv tuner card (there are other solutions, but these are the ones I'm most familiar with).

Now for a bit of reality and expectation adjustment. I will defy ANYONE on this site to say their captures in vcd,svcd,cvd, etc. are the exact same as their source tape. You'll get statements (these are statements I myself have said) like my eyes cant tell a difference, almost perfect. perfect from across the room, etc. VHS technology is both simplistic and very difficult (depending on how you long you have been doing the gig) your are talking an analog frame vs a digital one. You wont get anyone to say theirs are perfect. Hell, when the dvd burners (that operate in the same manner as your vcr) come down in price they probably be sorta the same way.

That being said, my set up is:

(look at my computer details for computer setup)
- ATI tv wonder card - $50 at best buy
- Alternating between powervcrII for real time (no need to reencode captures) and iuvcr with picvideo codec and TMPGENC for reencode).
-nero burning with compliance turned off

powervcr ($15 on ebay) after the tweeks will get you to good CVD (china video disc) captures from analog sources (vhs tape and TV). You WILLsee a little pixelation during high motion scenes and it looks a little granier than the original picture (in critiquing mode).

iuvcr with picvideo codec will give you a MUCH sharper image (setting 18) and you'll see a little "dancing pixels" in large single color areas of certain colors at times.

Short answer-you're not gonna see perfect. dont buy usb solutions(ps. the usb stuff will be hard pressed to give you ANYTHING above 352x240/288).

real time capture software - powervcrII
capture/conversion software - iuvcr,freevcr,virtualdub,tmpgenc,winvcr, picvideo codec,huffyev codec (all are freeware - or can be )

[elysium]

Hy There...

Yes you're right.
The trouble is, that you cannot capture video from a VHS for a VCD...
That means you cannot do it with a goot quality.

The problem is very simple:
The resolution of a VCD in PAL is 352 x 288 right? But a VideoCassette isn't. On a VHS you usually have a Resolution of (240 x 576 PAL) Some VCR can handle up to (400 x 576 PAL) But these are SVHS Recorders. So, If you are Capturing a video from a VCR with a resolution of (352 x 288) and the VCR's got a Resolution of (240 X 576 PAL) you get a resolution of (240 x 288) which is very low.

I suggest you choose a medium that's got a higher y-resolution. I mean you should make SVCD's. They have a resolution of (480 x 576 PAL). Then you won't get any quality loss.

If you're doing it in NTSC it is all the same. But whereas PAL has an y-resolution of 576 NTSC's got 480.

Good Luck.

I needs a lot of patience

[Ahura]

Hi,
You did not mention if you viewed the VCD on a TV. When I create a VCD mpeg (MPEG-1), it does not looked very good on a PC Monitor, but looks similar to VHS when I play it through my standalone DVD player (connected to a TV).

I strongly think its to do with how our eyes perceive information. Your monitor is a high resolution output device, whilst a TV is not. Because you are playing a low resolution video on a high resolution device, your eyes (actually your brain) can detect the extra pixels and the bluring.
When you watch the low resolution video on the low resolution TV, your eyes cannot detect the poor quality parts. Also your brain is really good at "making" up missing parts of images you cannot see.

Try this trick.
Look a a highly compresses JPEG (on your computer monitor). You will be able to see the bad compression artifects. Now squint, that is, close your eyes until almost closed, but not quite. The image will seem to be OK.

I hope that helps, if not, it was nice to post again.

[SatStorm]

You have 2 alternatives: Convert to xSVCD or CVD/SVCD
It is impossible to have perfect VHS quality with VCD, because VCD don't support Interlace. And that makes a great difference.

My solution:

First of all, you need a VCR with TBC (time base corrector). That helps a lot overall
Then go buy a Happauge win tv go or win tv primio FM (better). Those cards are cheap and do anything with no probs.

You need win2k, a dedicate 40GB HD at least (NTFS) and the following programs:
- Virualdub
- HuffyUV codec
- tooLAME
- TMPGenc Plus (or CCE, you get 8% better results but needs more skills)
- BBmpeg (always usefull)

Now: Let's clearify once again that VHS is not 240 (or 352) X 480/576. It ends up 480/576 Horizontal lines, but the active lines (the usefull ones) are only 240/288. You see, each field of a frame includes 144 active lines X 144 non active (blank) lines in PAL. 2 fields in a raw combine a frame, but for fill a whole CCIR output, those fields are in offset mode between them. Like 2 layers of something. SVHS is the same, but has only active lines. So here, 2 offset fields in the raw combine a true full frame. Little difficult to explain further. Go Visit JVC's site if you interest for more.

The true also varies a bit for the horizontal resolution. Many users "discover" that the horizontal VHS/SVHS resolution is 384 or 400 lines! Well, here is also difficult to expain further, 'cause with analogue transmissions we don't have exactly lines, but grouped dots. Anyway, those grouped dots or lines or called it whatever you want, for VCD/CVD must be rescale to 352 or boost to 480 for SVCD. Both gonna add noise during the proccess. If you want to prevent that, grabb direct to 352 Hor lines or 480 (if you go for SVCD). This is the fast way. There is an alternative which adds many steps but also creates better quality:
Grabb to 720 Hor lines and re-scale BEFORE THE ENCODING, with virtualdub to 352 or 480. That way, you gonna use the most possible grouped horizontal dots you can.
This is a step in the proccess noone do, 'cause takes much time and disc space. It is neccessary if you want perfect picture, and that's why frameservers are for. Noone use them nowdays, except CCE users, which can't do otherwise the first place... Myself don't bother do it, 'cause I am not a quality freak. I grabb direct to 352 X 576 and I have 5-10% less quality results that those who do it. I can live with that....

Anyway, because computers ain't capable to understand active/non active, layers (offset), etc, they grabb really fast and take "pictures" of fields. So, for PCs, we need a capture at least 352 X 576/480 for getting the whole vertical info.

Now, encoding at resolutions, like 640 and 720 X 576 (which is the best studio solution), have efforts and disavantages.
The efforts is that you don't miss anything
Also, because of the bitrate/resolution needed, you can succeed amazing results with less work. OK, you have 2 - 2.30 Hours per DVD, but the quality is identical your VHS/SVHS source, faster than the other ways and automate if you don't want to mess up with programs and advance encoding proccess

The disavantages are:
- It is in practice impossible to get those resolutions with home equipment/cables and analogue grabbing. It is technically a fake, but if your eyes find it better, do it and not listen anyone (including me)
- An analogue grabb @ those higher resolutions, includes more noise for various reasons. This noise, in our eyes ain't noticable always. But encoders ain't look the source the way we look it. So, for an encoder, the noise is info which must be compressed. That takes bitrate and f*ck up the whole movie. So, some times the source looks amazing and the file ends up horrible. This happens most of the time with DiVX source. DiVX looks excellent to the human eye, but it is a horrible source (in low bitrates, those we use for encoding movies in low filesizes) for the encoders. Remember: Encoders don't see things the way we do!
- For VCD/CVD we need 352 Horizontal lines, while for SVCD we need 480. So, the 720 lines have to end up 352 or 480. The rescaling ain't neccessary gonna choose the best part of any line. You see, encoders look lines when they have to short them, the way like the audio editors normalise an audio file. If the noise is high the encoder migh think that it is usefull info and it gonna keep it. You can understand the problems I believe...

Anyway, too much with the theory, I suggest you:

For VHS go xSVCD, like Sefy's SxVCD. That way and with an average bitrate about 1300 a clean VHS source gonna look identical to xSVCD.
For this alternative you need:
Virtualdub to grabb @ 352 X 576, with the HuffyUV codec
TMPGenc to load the avi and encode to SxVCD @ 1300 average bitrate
Don't de-interlace the source, SxVCD is mpeg 2 so supports interlace.
This is the best way, but: SxVCD is another form of xSVCD. It is not a standard, even if many players support it.
So, if you want more compatibility you have to go the other alternative, which is the only solution for SVHS also: CVD or SVCD.
CVD is better, but if you live in USA, then it is not that compatible solution. For PAL users, I believe is the best way to go. The proccess is the same but you set the bitrate @ an average of 2300 at least. 2520 gonna produce the best possible quality the "legal" way.
SVCD is more compatible in USA. In PAL ain't more CVDs. That way you also have to grabb the first place @ 480 X 480 resolution. It is better than grabb to 352 X 480 and boot to 480 X 480 or grabb to 720 X 480 and re-scale 480 X 480 except if you choose to do it the hardway, including much more time and barrely noticable difference. (I mean grabb and rescale with virtualdub).
VHS gonna look excellent @ CVDs/SVCD, with much less work. That has to do with the bitrate mostly, but always remember that this is a fake result. You can succeed the same quality, in the half filesize/resolution the hardway and if you go X
SVHS gonna look identical, if you do the proccess correct. That is hard also, there are many users ain't capable to succeed it. Takes times, need skills and basicly, encoders don't help much. TMPGenc and CCE are good programs, but are far away being perfect.

The easy way, is again going -X- or DVD. Let say you grabb and encode at 720 X 576/480 with higher bitrates (>5000) That way, you have ~2 hours per DVD, with quality identical your VHS/SVHS source. If you like this solution, then go for programs like PowerVCR II.

It is the easiest way for someone simply want to do his job done!

[owh_bn]

Thank you all for replies.
Being new in this, I am trying hard to understand all suggestions.
Apparently, USB is deemed not able to produce good quality.
However, I own a notebook (Compaq N600c) and so, could not use 'card'. Is there any suggestion for notebook PC? Or, it must be on desktop PC. There seems to be so many software to achieve the task, is there any single software to do all work (at high quality)?
Thanks again.

[Barnabas]

For VHS tape to be captured and retain decent quality, you need to capture to 640 x 480 avi, EVEN if you are planning to make a VCD in the end. While some of the real-time hardware compression cards can do a good job from a clean source to mpeg-1 or 2, they do a poor job from VHS tape. USB is plenty fast enough for a HARDWARE mpeg encoding device, but to make AVI captures via USB, TOO MUCH compression must be used. USB is therefor NOT suitable for AVI captures.

[MOVIEGEEK]

Thank you all for replies.
Being new in this, I am trying hard to understand all suggestions.
Apparently, USB is deemed not able to produce good quality.
However, I own a notebook (Compaq N600c) and so, could not use 'card'. Is there any suggestion for notebook PC? Or, it must be on desktop PC. There seems to be so many software to achieve the task, is there any single software to do all work (at high quality)?
Thanks again.

I'm afraid you are limited to usb capture with a notebook.I would suggest
using Microsoft Media Encoder 8(it's free at microsoft.com)and convert
using TMPGEnc(encoding to mpeg-1 vcd is free,mpeg-2 svcd is $50).

[T-Man]

Hi owh_bn,

Don't feel so sad about the quality that you have created.
The main problem is your video capture card. I do have a similar
problem as your. Now, I do own 3 video cards. Do not trust what
the video packaging has told you because they are only comforming
to the format but not the quality you will get.

For those low end video capture cards will produce crappy video or
else the audio will not synchronise with the video. This is due to the lost
of frames during capturing. It is too much for the cheap video capture card to handle it.

I have Matrox RT2500 which allows me to capture analog or digital
video into DV format. I am very happy with it as I could make my home video without any problem. The only problem is the compatible with the motherboard. You could look at Canopus DV products too, they are not cheap. It is beyond my reach. Maybe some days I will buy it if I am going to run a video editing company. Your harddisk is also playing a part during the process of capturing and some others things as well.

[Betamax]

Hi all,
After buying 2 capturecards (Pinacle DC10+ and Asus 7100combo), which all gave me very poor quality (and I'm a quality freak), I finally bought myself a Matrox RT2500.
When I bought this card (6months ago) it was very costly (now it is cheaper), but the card is worth it's price.
I've got lots of vhs-tapes with films which I recorded the past years (oldest = 15years ago) and I can capture them all without any problem.
The quality is splendid.
My experience is not to create SVCD, but just plain VCD !
I've got better result with VCD, using the RT2500 than when I create SVCD (weird isn't it?). It might be because the card records in interlaced mode - instead in progressive mode which most capturecards does.
But who cares? I don't. With VCD I can put more movie onto a single CD.
When I play the movie at my standalone player at the TV, it sometimes seems the quality even is better than when I'm playing the original tape at the vhs-recorder...!

And no, I don't have any artefacts anymore.
Subtitles are great !
I also think it got to deal with the fact that the video is converted to DV (onboard at the RT2500). You usally would capture using IEEE1394 cables, but the RT2500 also allows you to capture analogue material via a seperacte box, connected to the card.
Audio always is synchronised (which is very important - ain't it).
I have no limits in capturing, whether the source is only 2minutes or 4hours..

It's correct that the card won't work at all motherboards, but happely it does with me (it wasn't and isn't mentioned at the compatibility list of Matrox - mostly you've got to figure that out for yourself I suppose).
I've got an Abit KT133-A, with an Athlon 1.2GHZ.
At the beginning I had a lot of troubles with the card, but it all seemed to be the problem with IRQ and DMA conflicts. Happely, computer-science is my professional, so I know what I had to do. A lot of trying and reconfiguring of the configuration of my system, which resulted in the current configuration with which I've got no troubles at all.

I'm very happy while I can capture all my old vhs-tapes (SP and LP - mono and stereo) to VCD - with the same (and sometimes even better) results as the source.

I really advise people to use these kind of semi-professional cards, if they're quaility freaks like me - yes those cards costs a lot (mine was about 1200 EUR - approximile 1150 $), but it always will be better then bying new (and faster) computers and bying new capture cards.
The huvjuv codec (or whatever it's name is) and the mjpeg-codec are all based on progressive interleave modes, while DV is based upon interleaved modes (bottom first/top first). I think it also got to deal with the fact that the Matrox card captures in the actual DVD-resolution (which is 720x576 for pal or 720x480 for ntsc) so nothing will be lost. TMPGenc will finaly rescale the source while creating the VCD mpg (for me it rescales to 352x288) - I've got no enoying black borders, like TMPGenc creates when your source already is 352x288 - so my resulting mpeg is okay for that matter too.

The only minor I've detected is when capturing animations. It seems I've got less quality with cartoons than using such cheep low-cost cards, most people are using...
But I'm figuring out to change the capture configuration so it will be better in the future.

Anyway, think about it.
Good luck.

[lrainaldi]

Hi I am new to VCDHelp.com, I have been dabbling with video editing for several years. I have attempted several times to move to digital and this attempt brought me much closer. I first purchased a DV Cam and a new Dell P4 2GHZ, I upgraded the RAM to 512MB and put 2 80G hard drives in. I also have a Firewire card installed. and a 60MB GeoForce video card with TV Out. I am using MGI VideoWave 5 software for capture, editing, and burning out VCDs. I took the VCD to my JVC player, and the quality was worse than VHS edits that I did 10 years ago using just analog editing equipment (home equipment). The quality of the video seems to even degrade or pixalize even when I play it on full screen on my computer. I attempt using both MPEG2 and MPEG1 formats after I capture the DV video. Then convert it to an MPEG1 VCD. I was considering getting a DVDR, but am concerned about the portablility of the disc with other players for people in my family.

I would appreciate any advice..
I am really enjoying this site and the information that is collected here.

LJ

[gf]

Hi Irainaldi,

In your post you listed your capture resolution but not your data rate.
ex:Video:
1150 kbit/sec MPEG-1
352 x 288 pixels
25 frames/second

Audio:
224 kbit/sec MPEG-1 Layer2

I record alot of music videos with fast movement and I found these settings to help.

Video:
1500 kbit/sec MPEG-1*******
352 x 288 pixels
25 frames/second

Audio:
224 kbit/sec MPEG-1 Layer2

Granted it's not a vcd standard but it playes on my home dvd player and it looks pretty good!

Steve

[gf]

Sorry Irainaldi,
I ment owh_bn

[lrainaldi]

Sorry, I am not sure what the capture rate is. I am using a Firewire card and a DV cam. VideoWave, automatically sets the options for capture when using Firewire. This is not coming from an analog video cassette, though, just to clarify. What software do you use to capture and edit videos before burning to VCD. I am using Easy CD Creator 5 Platinum edition for burning.

Thanks