Minimal beta setup

[aurelius]

Hello everyone, I just registered ! Been a long time lurker but first time poster because I finally have a question I can't find the answer to I'm currently digitizing tapes and a client asked me about some big Beta tapes. I don't do institutional tape formats usually, but the client is nice so I'm looking into it properly before I give him my answer.

From what I understand, there are many types of "Beta" (tape case) formats for analog and digital. Reading about it all makes me realise how much Sony messed up in the war! My client has SX and SP tapes, which already complicates the matter. That's compounded by the fact that I don't know much about broadcast and how to go from the first deck to a full setup for all beta formats.

My question is then two fold : (1) what deck models do you guys use to transfer beta tapes, that is both versatile in formats and powerful enough to exploit most of the tapes' characteristics (4 channel audio?), and (2) what is your transfer workflow for the beta formats (sdi, firewire, analog) and is there one workflow that work accross most versions?

As an example, this is how I setup my VHS transfer to get most tapes done :

1. S-VHS vcr (jvc/pan for compact)
2. External TBC/DNR
3. AD from Y/C to DV (PAL is 4:2:0)
4. Save raw .dv over firewire
5. Filters etc.

(This is just the regular bulk setup)

Additional info :

• I'm in europe so I use PAL
• I'm in France so I also have to deal with SECAM (and I hate every second of it)
• Budget is not unlimited, but not limited either, I'd rather buy nice than buy twice!

If you guys could share your experience with me, with specific deck models and setup, I'd really appreciate it. From what I read so far the J-30 sdi is the standard beginner option but I've got little experience with SDI so I'm not sure if I should go that way.

[dellsam34]

Highly doubt Betacam came in SECAM, As far as I know it existed only in PAL and NTSC.

SD Betacam came in several formats across the years, digital and analog. Betacam, Betacam SP, Digibeta, SX, Mpeg IMX, To cover the whole range in PAL/NTSC, small/large cassettes, 2/4 audio channels you want the Sony J30-SDI (J3-SDI 2ch only). If you want HDCam you'll have to get an extra compact player, they are not backward compatible with older formats, If you want HDCam SR you'll need the studio microwave size deck, Sony did not make a compact player for this format.

Compact players with SDI out are the ones you'll be looking for, They are built in analog to digital converter with TBC for analog tapes, all what you need is a SDI-USB3, SDI-Thunderbolt or SDI-PCI interface, depends on what computer system you have, I suggest Blackmagic ones and use MediaExpress app.

[oln]

Betacam is component on tape. It will only be converted to PAL or SECAM on output if you use composite or s-video output but you really wanna use component or SDI out anyhow.

[aurelius]

Highly doubt Betacam came in SECAM, As far as I know it existed only in PAL and NTSC.

SD Betacam came in several formats across the years, digital and analog. Betacam, Betacam SP, Digibeta, SX, Mpeg IMX, To cover the whole range in PAL/NTSC, small/large cassettes, 2/4 audio channels you want the Sony J30-SDI (J3-SDI 2ch only). If you want HDCam you'll have to get an extra compact player, they are not backward compatible with older formats, If you want HDCam SR you'll need the studio microwave size deck, Sony did not make a compact player for this format.

Compact players with SDI out are the ones you'll be looking for, They are built in analog to digital converter with TBC for analog tapes, all what you need is a SDI-USB3, SDI-Thunderbolt or SDI-PCI interface, depends on what computer system you have, I suggest Blackmagic ones and use MediaExpress app.

Thank you for your detailed reply.

About SECAM indeed I got some things mixed up, I'm having some slight PTSD from dealing with that stupid color format... It's just an extra pain in the ass to deal with, pardon my french. I'd not wish it on my ennemies.

Back to the decks. Thanks for pointing me in that direction. I'd rather buy a J-30 then, but starting with a J-3 could also do. The included TBC sounds nice. Are any of those two Beta units also usable as passthrough (to take advantage of their internal AD and/or TBC/DNR/etc.) or is that for bigger and other decks only?

Regarding SDI for capture, are there any capture hardware better than others? Any SDI controllers that work better than others ? I've noticed multiple SDI standards, I'm starting to look into it. I might already have SDI on a PCIE capture card somewhere next to an HDMI-in port.

Is the HDCAM format worth looking into while search for Beta equipment too? Or what is the reason that you mention it (along the SR variant) in your reply? Maybe I'm missing something here.

[aurelius]

Betacam is component on tape. It will only be converted to PAL or SECAM on output if you use composite or s-video output but you really wanna use component or SDI out anyhow.

Thanks for your input. Would Beta analog format read with higher quality through analog which would then allow capture in eg. 4:4:4 instead of the digital 4:2:2 of the SDI output? I honestly don't know how those decks work, but I know that for example in the case of analog 8mm tapes, it can be worth it.

FIY the big bad SECAM doesn't even do better than composite... No native S-Video or component, it's all transcoded to/from PAL (SECAM-only TV... don't get me started). So if Betacam is component, then it can't be secam. A nice problem avoided.

[Cornucopia]

Unless you are doing pro colorist stuff, 4:2:2 will probably be plenty good enough, and you shouldn't have to bend over backwards to use it, compared to 4:4:4.

But, and I cannot stress this enough, if you have industrial material and are using pro decks and going the SDI transfer pathway, all of which maintains very high quality from the source. So, please do NOT save into compressed DV format, as you will be losing much quality in the process.
Instead, save using lossless (HUFFYUV, LAGARITH...) or virtually lossless (PRORES, DNXHD, CINEFORM...) for subsequent editing, archiving etc.


Scott

[dellsam34]

Back to the decks. Thanks for pointing me in that direction.

The players I mentioned don't have inputs, just outputs, So if you want a passthrough option you will have to get the chunky recorders, heavy as a tank and they are slightly smaller than a microwave oven.

SDI ingest interfaces should be all the same because they suppose to stream the SDI stream unaltered, However Blackmagic got wide support for all OS's and their software just works. Most newer SDI interfaces are SDI-SD and SDI-HD which is all what you need for all Betacam Formats.

HDCAM came out in 1997, SR is around 2003, So if you have some materials in those formats you can go for a big recorder that can be used to playback both HDCAM and HDCAM-SR, it can also be used for passthrough for other analog formats but most likely no SECAM input.

Don't go component, there is no need for 4:4:4, All Betacam formats are 4:2:2 native, So you will be just up-sampling chroma unnecessarily.

[aurelius]

Unless you are doing pro colorist stuff, 4:2:2 will probably be plenty good enough, and you shouldn't have to bend over backwards to use it, compared to 4:4:4.

But, and I cannot stress this enough, if you have industrial material and are using pro decks and going the SDI transfer pathway, all of which maintains very high quality from the source. So, please do NOT save into compressed DV format, as you will be losing much quality in the process.
Instead, save using lossless (HUFFYUV, LAGARITH...) or virtually lossless (PRORES, DNXHD, CINEFORM...) for subsequent editing, archiving etc.


Scott

Thank you for your insights. I would never downsample SDI 4:2:2 into DV 4:2:0, that's sacreligous and I can already feel hell burning for just thinking about it. Altho I have to admit that PAL dv is higher quality than NTSC, so I do use DV for some SD captures (the high bandwidth means it's the "virtually lossless" of the SD world except for Chroma). I assumed the firewire output of the Beta decks only outputs 4:2:0 so I won't use them, correct?

I do know and use huffyuv and utvideo for lossless in my VHS captures. I will learn the ones you mentionned, I'm already familiar in name but never used them much, looks like they're used a lot for HD content which I never had to deal with yet.

I agree about going the simplest 4:2:2 route, and I will totally use SDI to my advantage. My question was more about the possibility of using 4:4:4 for analog Beta for the best possible result.

[aurelius]

Back to the decks. Thanks for pointing me in that direction.

The players I mentioned don't have inputs, just outputs, So if you want a passthrough option you will have to get the chunky recorders, heavy as a tank and they are slightly smaller than a microwave oven.

SDI ingest interfaces should be all the same because they suppose to stream the SDI stream unaltered, However Blackmagic got wide support for all OS's and their software just works. Most newer SDI interfaces are SDI-SD and SDI-HD which is all what you need for all Betacam Formats.

HDCAM came out in 1997, SR is around 2003, So if you have some materials in those formats you can go for a big recorder that can be used to playback both HDCAM and HDCAM-SR, it can also be used for passthrough for other analog formats but most likely no SECAM input.

Don't go component, there is no need for 4:4:4, All Betacam formats are 4:2:2 native, So you will be just up-sampling chroma unnecessarily.

Oh right, I could have seen that on pictures, sorry. No inputs, that's a bummer. Is there any equivalent to the Sony J30SDI but with inputs and that's interesting to own? If I can re-use equipment for passthrough, that would save me a Canopus

Thanks for pointing me to Blackmagic, I've heard of them, for SD stuff I've so far avoided them (as per the lord of the smurfs' advice) but I'll start checking out some second hand SDI cards for the more HD stuff.

About component out, I was refering to analog Beta, I assume it's not 4:2:2 since it's not converted to digital yet? I agree about what you said and I don't want to upsample unecessarily, I want to capture at the best possible setting from the analog tape if possible. The J30 SDI deck doesn't have component out, that's a real bummer.

PS: I fully expect that nothing will do SECAM passthrough, I usually transcode to PAL or use a Canopus

[dellsam34]

Blackmagic are not good for analog ingest, Though I've seen some success stories, SDI is digital so it's technically not a capture, just a stream transfer like a D8 tape over firewire.
No, I can't recommend specific recorders, never dealt with them, You will have to do your own research.
How well the Canopus work in analog to analog passthrough?

[aurelius]

Blackmagic are not good for analog ingest, Though I've seen some success stories, SDI is digital so it's technically not a capture, just a stream transfer like a D8 tape over firewire.
No, I can't recommend specific recorders, never dealt with them, You will have to do your own research.
How well the Canopus work in analog to analog passthrough?

Indeed, they "work" but I heard they sometimes fail in a way that's not acceptable for a even a good lowcost capture (drops!) I know for firewire it's best to get a TI chip, are there good SDI chips to prefer to others? If they are all working fine, I might go for something cheaper than Blackmagic, or even USB as I have multi-controller cards to spare (from back when I thought that Hauppauge USB was the best...)

Have you ever tried capturing analog beta with a non-sdi deck through the component? And if so was there a visual improvement over SDI in regards to chroma?

For the canopus, I don't use it for analog passthrough so I couldn't say. I just capture it straight to DV, it's for rare cases where the rest of my equipment can't handle the analog secam output of a particular tape. High end VCRs usually have an extra option to transcode the output to PAL (you can switch between SECAM and PAL on the actual output port), so these days I rarely use the Canopus unless it's a really bad tape that I wouldn't put in a good reader.

[dellsam34]

I don't know about chips, again this is digital in, digital out so quality is not a concern, Just make sure your hard drive can keep up with the data being streamed. SDI can only be done via USB 3.x, Thunderbolt and PCIe, It doesn't work on USB 2.0.

I haven't tried component capture because I have one deck for both analog and digital tapes (J3-SDI) and I didn't want to complicate my setup by adding an extra deck for just component out and running extra cables, although the BE75 I have can capture component with no problems but having the VCR digitizes analog tapes is a nice feature to have, I don't think I can get better results than what I already have if I would to use an oversized studio deck with analog component out, The format quality is very robust, there isn't much that you can get out of by using component.

Your consumer SECAM tapes situation can be resolved by getting a JVC S-VHS VCR with a suffix MS, It's debatable whether the line TBC is active on SECAM VCR's but with it you can capture directly to SECAM. For capture, since you are getting an SDI interface you should be looking into getting an analog to SDI capture device (a.k.a converter), they usually capture NTSC/PAL/SECAM natively, Look for devices from Ensemble Designs, Snell & Willcox, Aja and Grass Valley, They are usually built in TBC/Frame synchronizer.

[aurelius]

I don't know about chips, again this is digital in, digital out so quality is not a concern, Just make sure your hard drive can keep up with the data being streamed. SDI can only be done via USB 3.x, Thunderbolt and PCIe, It doesn't work on USB 2.0.

I haven't tried component capture because I have one deck for both analog and digital tapes (J3-SDI) and I didn't want to complicate my setup by adding an extra deck for just component out and running extra cables, although the BE75 I have can capture component with no problems but having the VCR digitizes analog tapes is a nice feature to have, I don't think I can get better results than what I already have if I would to use an oversized studio deck with analog component out, The format quality is very robust, there isn't much that you can get out of by using component.

Your consumer SECAM tapes situation can be resolved by getting a JVC S-VHS VCR with a suffix MS, It's debatable whether the line TBC is active on SECAM VCR's but with it you can capture directly to SECAM. For capture, since you are getting an SDI interface you should be looking into getting an analog to SDI capture device (a.k.a converter), they usually capture NTSC/PAL/SECAM natively, Look for devices from Ensemble Designs, Snell & Willcox, Aja and Grass Valley, They are usually built in TBC/Frame synchronizer.

I understand there is no AD conversion going on, I'm talking about the data chip. Some controller chips could be better than others. If you never saw a difference then I assume there's no big problem with how the manufacturers implement SDI standard in their integrated circuits (think : drivers, stability, etc.) I will check the brands you mentionned, some I don't know yet, thanks for the info !

I guess the J-30 SDI is ok for all the digital versions, but since it doesn't have component then the regular 30 version might be optimal to get the most out of analog tapes. I'll see if I find another bigger deck that has both component and SDI as well as passthrough, or I will start with a J3 SDI and upgrade from there later.

For Secam yes I know all the models and suffixes, got them here and on digitalfaq too mostly, as well as some other personal research I have capture devices and everything set up, I don't think I'll upgrade to SDI for that workflow. Unless I find something really interesting with my analog beta exploration !

[dellsam34]

Just make sure there is a benefit to capturing component, otherwise you will be wasting money just to find out the picture from the SDI out is miles better than an off board component capture device.
The brands I mentioned are for capturing Y-C and composite, I was not specifically talking about component but some of them do have component inputs.

[aurelius]

Just make sure there is a benefit to capturing component, otherwise you will be wasting money just to find out the picture from the SDI out is miles better than an off board component capture device.
The brands I mentioned are for capturing Y-C and composite, I was not specifically talking about component but some of them do have component inputs.

Thank you for clarifying, yes I will try to get feedback from people who have done specifically that. Logically analog beta should be better in component since the deck can only output digital 4:2:2, unless there's something I don't understand yet. I will share feedback if I do the tests myself!

By the way since we're talking, do you have any advice for someone like me building a digitizing studio ? Not particularly related to Beta, just all tape transfers. Some kind of big mistake that I should watch out for or similar.

[dellsam34]

Again, Analog Betacam and Betacam SP are 4:2:2 native, not 4:4:4 as you may think, The ADC in a component capture card is no better than the ADC sits inside the J3/J30, As a matter of the fact I can argue that Sony knows better how to digitize their analog formats than any 3rd party component capture device. But they all take the analog 4:2:2 and digitize it into digital 4:2:2. And I think I just remembered that some of the compact models do offer component out, Not sure if you will find component and SDI on the same deck or not.

The only advise I can give you which I already did if you want to build a studio is to get an analog (Composite (CVBS), S-Video (YC) and Component (YCbCr)) to SDI digital converter with built in TBC for various analog formats and a SDI/PCI interface. If planning multiple workflows for different formats or different orders, Build mini or micro ITX boxes with SDI interface and 2TB HDD, preferably Windows 10/11 and keep them offline, Get as many as you need of analog to SDI converters, They are hard to find but can be found with little patience, Ensemble designs can still sell their BE75 on special order, Singmai did offer their analog to SDI converter few months ago but with their move back to Asia not sure if they are taking orders.

[aurelius]

Again, Analog Betacam and Betacam SP are 4:2:2 native, not 4:4:4 as you may think, The ADC in a component capture card is no better than the ADC sits inside the J3/J30, As a matter of the fact I can argue that Sony knows better how to digitize their analog formats than any 3rd party component capture device. But they all take the analog 4:2:2 and digitize it into digital 4:2:2. And I think I just remembered that some of the compact models do offer component out, Not sure if you will find component and SDI on the same deck or not.

The only advise I can give you which I already did if you want to build a studio is to get an analog (Composite (CVBS), S-Video (YC) and Component (YCbCr)) to SDI digital converter with built in TBC for various analog formats and a SDI/PCI interface. If planning multiple workflows for different formats or different orders, Build mini or micro ITX boxes with SDI interface and 2TB HDD, preferably Windows 10/11 and keep them offline, Get as many as you need of analog to SDI converters, They are hard to find but can be found with little patience, Ensemble designs can still sell their BE75 on special order, Singmai did offer their analog to SDI converter few months ago but with their move back to Asia not sure if they are taking orders.

If analog beta is recorded as an analog signal (component), then how can it be encoded as 4:2:2 already? Am I missing something or are you confusing something? I don't know if I'm not explaining my question properly. For example I wouldn't use a D8 reader to digitize an 8mm tape through firewire and would prefer analog output : it would allow me to use ADC that can output 4:4:4 whereas firewire is DVPAL at 4:2:0. Is there something I'm misunderstanding?

As for "Sony knows better" well... it's Beta

[dellsam34]

What I meant is the equivalence of 4:2:2 in the analog domain using an analog compression scheme called CTDM. 4:4:4 is over kill for any analog format be it SD or HD, And I'm not aware of any component capture device that capture at 4:4:4 from analog sources.

To be able to understand how Betacam chroma is compressed on tape you have to understand how CTDM works (Compressed Time Division Multiplex), Not related to the topic but in a nutshell the video signal is represented by three signals. One Luminance and two Chrominance. These signals are referred to as Y, U and V a special way of encoding the Red, Green and Blue signals that make up the color frame. The signal carrying the color information U and V is time compressed and recorded onto one video track while the luminance, or Y, signal is recorded onto a second track. Both tracks are recorded using high frequency FM carriers.

[aurelius]

What I meant is the equivalence of 4:2:2 in the analog domain using an analog compression scheme called CTDM. 4:4:4 is over kill for any analog format be it SD or HD, And I'm not aware of any component capture device that capture at 4:4:4 from analog sources.

To be able to understand how Betacam chroma is compressed on tape you have to understand how CTDM works (Compressed Time Division Multiplex), Not related to the topic but in a nutshell the video signal is represented by three signals. One Luminance and two Chrominance. These signals are referred to as Y, U and V a special way of encoding the Red, Green and Blue signals that make up the color frame. The signal carrying the color information U and V is time compressed and recorded onto one video track while the luminance, or Y, signal is recorded onto a second track. Both tracks are recorded using high frequency FM carriers.

Thank you for clarifying. I'm familiar with Y/C so I understand what you mean now. I have never heard of CTDM, I will look into it. If it's not possible to get better chroma than the one from the internal AD to the SDI port, then it will make my life a lot easier. But if there seems to be higher quality coming out of the component port (if CTDM is somewhat "lossless") then I'm in for some weird stuff ! LOL

I believe there are ADC that can get 4:4:4, but so far I've only dealt with S-Video which is barely good enough for that, so I stopped at 4:2:2 and did not investigate further. However in my situation, with analog beta being one rank above SVHS quality wise, it would be a shame to digitize improperly.

I realise all of this is overkill, but I prefer to do research (and I need to do a lot of it because my knowledge isn't from formal education) to do a good job for my clients before purchasing and setting up. I don't want to mess up something important that would waste more time and budget in the end. It's my current "measure twice, cut once", call me insane but I like to do things properly.

I'm looking into the BE75 and the entire Ensemble Designs' product line. The particular model BE75 can't do SECAM (welcome to my hell). I can't figure out at first glance in their product description, what all the color spaces are, but I will take a deeper look when I have more time. SMPTE color are diverse and Beta color is obviously new to me.

Thanks again for all the info, I very much appreciate your contribution with your time and experience.

[dellsam34]

BE75 should do SECAM, Just ask the manufacturer.

[aurelius]

BE75 should do SECAM, Just ask the manufacturer.

I mean in theory sure it can be added, but in the datasheet it says PAL/NTSC so I highly doubt it. I'm used to it by now, I wish you to never have to deal with that standard!

[dellsam34]

I called Ensemble Designs and they confirmed it is not compatible with SECAM, I spoke with Ron and he said it's still available for purchase and still being manufactured here in the US, Retail price is $1450 US dollars and they have few units in stock, Hope this helps.

[aurelius]

Thanks !