Need a recommendation for a good USB recording card (dongle) for VHS record

[gil900]

Hello,
I have this device:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=peLdwr1ACr0


Unfortunately, this device works very poorly.
If there is a lot of noise on the tape, or the picture jumps, then I get lots of frame drops


I do not want to deal with it. It requires me to return to the recording (to get more then one recording) and then repair the loss of frames with avisynth algorithms and this is crazy headache for me and nightmare.

I don't want headache and nightmare when I recording.

I want to record once and get recording without any any loss of frames/frame drops (not talking about picture jumps because it's out of control of the device ).
My PC is laptop so I need it to be connected through USB.
OR
If the device can be independently (without requirement to do the recording with computer) to create a file with lossless compression, so it's better. (Hope there is such a thing in my budget)

I am willing to pay up to 190$.
But this device must be good and not garbage like the EasyCap.




Thanks for helpers!

[ajk]

Only the real ezcap.tv dongle is worth considering, those "EasyCaps" are clones and generally useless devices. Other options are for example ATI and StarTech devices, see this thread that is right next to yours:

https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/376375

But your issue may not lie just in the capture device. If the signal coming from your playback device is poor, most capture devices will have trouble. Zero framedrops is difficut to achieve. You may need to insert a time base corrector of some description in your signal path or perhaps get a better VHS player.

[gil900]

What is time base corrector? Is it a device that I need to buy? or it is something that should be included in the VHS ?

The signal is not so bad. It seems reasonable.
My device is supposed to deal with it but it seems this device is very sensitive. it need perfect signal and it is impossible from tape..

[ajk]

A time base corrector or TBC is a device that attempts to correct errors in a video signal that result from the imperfect mechanical playback of the tape. The output from a TBC should be a perfectly formed video signal that is easy to capture. There are however many ways to implement a TBC, and their effectiveness varies. It can be a completely separate device, or built-in functionality. Do a search here on the forum and you will find dozens of threads about this subject.

[theewizard]

I had one that worked with winxp
AdS Tech
Worked really well, mpeg 2, hardware encoding
If looking for something Now
I would definitely be checking them out

[usually_quiet]

I had one that worked with winxp
AdS Tech
Worked really well, mpeg 2, hardware encoding
If looking for something Now
I would definitely be checking them out

An ADS Tech capture device isn't such a good choice in 2016. The company is long out of business. Their website existed a bit longer but disappeared in 2013. If there is no installation CD, finding clean drivers and the manufacturer's bundled Capwiz software would be difficult even if one could obtain the hardware. See https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/329302-Windows-7-Drivers-for-VideoXpres-Capwiz

[theewizard]

Too bad they are no longer in business
They had good hardware, that worked well back then,
I wasn't suggesting old hardware for use with win8 and etc..
Only looking to see IF, they were still around..
Too bad they are not

[gil900]

Ok - first I need to know what is really causing the problem
how can I know that?

I saw here what signal errors the TBC corrects and from what I remember, I have such signal errors but it's not so common thing in my case and I have lots of frame drops..

Is it something that my maybe case by the video card?
I have 2 laptops - one with Intel HD video card and the second with NVIDIA GTX 660M .
Two laptops with powerful CPU - Intel I5 2.5-2.9GHZ
Until now I recorded on my laptop with the Intel HD video card.

Do you think that powerful GPU like GTX 660M can improve the EasyCap performance substantially? Is it worth a try?

[ajk]

The GPU is not involved in video capturing.

Most likely the problem is that your VHS player is not coping with the tape(s) very well. The VCR is the most important part to get right. A TBC can then stabilize the signal so that it is easy to capture.

[gil900]

I now testing this on my second laptop with the nvidia GPU.
I just found that there is a very significant difference in performance between VLC 1.1.11 to VirtualDub 1.9.8 in display the easycap output.


When I play the easycap output in VLC, then there is 0 frame drops on average and in VirtualDub I get a lots of frame drops.
I make sure in the test that VirtualDub and VLC running on the NVIDIA GPU so it is not the GPU that make the difference. only software...
The quality of the output is the same in both cases

So maybe the solution is to record with VLC
I still didn't compered it to Debut Video Capture. I was recorded with Debut Video Capture and maybe I will get the same VirtualDub result again in Debut Video Capture.

[jagabo]

VirtualDub is not optimized as a media player. Don't expect it to always play video files properly. But that has nothing to do with its capture and video processing abilities.

[gil900]

VirtualDub is not optimized as a media player. Don't expect it to always play video files properly. But that has nothing to do with its capture and video processing abilities.

You did not understand. What I testing in VirtualDub, VLC and Debut Video Capture is the capture mode

[ricardouk]

a while ago i read here that one of ADVC models has a TBC hack, cant remember which model, i think it was the ADVC 110

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=324yPye4xsE

[jagabo]

VirtualDub is not optimized as a media player. Don't expect it to always play video files properly. But that has nothing to do with its capture and video processing abilities.

You did not understand. What I testing in VirtualDub, VLC and Debut Video Capture is the capture mode

That wasn't clear because you said:

When I play the easycap output in VLC, then there is 0 frame drops on average and in VirtualDub I get a lots of frame drops.

For frame drops while capturing in VirtualDub you need to go to the Capture -> Timing dialog and play with the Resync settings -- usually turn them off. Also, don't try to compress audio while capturing (CPU time spent compressing the audio is CPU time not available for receiving video frames), leave it uncompressed.

[gil900]

I need to understand this:
Is this kind of fix: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tMA5aH_olAQ
external TBC device really can do?

I think that in order to make such fix, it must be done inside the VHS. otherwise I can not understand how it works.
If it is some external device between the PC to the VHS then I can't see how it can make such fix... I guess that it can only improve the analog signal strength.


If this is the case then real TBC for me is only if it is done inside the VHS and this is probably expensive for me to buy VHS with TBC included


What exactly external TBC device can improve?

[jagabo]

An external TBC can fix flagging at the top of the frame (as well as less severe horizontal jitter common to all VHS) if it has a line TBC function. Best for this is some of the Panasonic DVD recorders like the ES10 and ES15. Each scan line of the analog signal contains horizontal sync pulses. The line TBC lines them and and stretches/compresses individual lines as necessary, reducing the flagging and horizontal jitter.

[gil900]

I do not understand the low technical about how exactly it works because my English but it sounds like magic.

So in order for it to work, the analog signal from the VHS must contain "horizontal sync pulses" ?
Every VHS produces analog signal with this "horizontal sync pulses" ?


EDIT:
I have now VHS model: JVC HR-J797MS
Does it have TBC included?

I did all my last tests with this VHS. before that I used another VHS.

[jagabo]

So in order for it to work, the analog signal from the VHS must contain "horizontal sync pulses" ?
Every VHS produces analog signal with this "horizontal sync pulses" ?

Yes, and yes.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sync_pulse#Structure_of_a_video_signal

I have now VHS model: JVC HR-J797MS
Does it have TBC included?

Almost certainly not.

[gil900]

So in order for it to work, the analog signal from the VHS must contain "horizontal sync pulses" ?
Every VHS produces analog signal with this "horizontal sync pulses" ?

Yes, and yes.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sync_pulse#Structure_of_a_video_signal

I have now VHS model: JVC HR-J797MS
Does it have TBC included?

Almost certainly not.

Thanks, I needed this answer in order to refer to

a while ago i read here that one of ADVC models has a TBC hack, cant remember which model, i think it was the ADVC 110

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=324yPye4xsE

ricardouk, Thanks I will explore it further if will have to(If I will have frame drops and lot of this image problem that TBC can fix)


Update:
It seems that I have.
Does external TBC device can fix also this:

?

[pippas]

a while ago i read here that one of ADVC models has a TBC hack, cant remember which model, i think it was the ADVC 110

If by 'TBC hack' you mean the ability to defeat Macrovision protection, then the ADVC100 could do that, as could the ADVC50.

But the later ADVC110 and ADVC55 models had that option disabled - without any way of overriding it, IIRC....

[jagabo]

Canopus ADVC devices have a full frame TBC, not a line TBC. A full frame TBC puts out a constant signal whether or not the input is clean, just like the graphics card in your computer puts out a constant signal to your monitor when your capture card loses sync -- the Desktop remains intact even if the picture in the capture software's window is messed up.

[gil900]

Canopus ADVC devices have a full frame TBC, not a line TBC. A full frame TBC puts out a constant signal whether or not the input is clean, just like the graphics card in your computer puts out a constant signal to your monitor when your capture card loses sync -- the Desktop remains intact even if the picture in the capture software's window is messed up.

Please answer me which external TBC device can fix the problem I mentioned in post 19
and if so then which kind of TBC - "full frame" or "line". From what I understood it is the line tbc (if it really can fix it)

What do I get from "full frame TBC" ? What you mentioned can be done in the computer if it is only adding frozen frames when the signal is lost..

[jagabo]

The problem in post #19 is a vertical sync issue. If it's just an occasional frame a full frame TBC might fix it by substituting the previous good frame. If it's consistent over longer periods adjusting the VHS decks tracking, using a different VHS deck, or using a different capture device is more likely to fix it.

[gil900]

Ok.
I need to make sure I understood it correctly -

Line TBC: Using some extra input from the analog signal "horizontal sync pulses" in order to fix unstable image.

Full frame TBC:
Detect(using image processing) which frame is lost or containing damaged image and if it found such frame then it building frame/s using good frame/s before the event and using good frame/s after the event. so at the end it does not look like frozen frame.. it creates middle-frames (Hope you understand)

I understand right? (I guessed about the full frame TBC)

Does line TBC can also fix it?

[jagabo]

A line TBC corrects individual scan lines, aligning them horizontally and making them all the same length (using the horizontal sync pulses as the reference). If the input signal is lost or too badly degraded a line TBC will do nothing useful.

A full frame TBC is basically a video capture device. It captures frames to an internal frame buffer and outputs frames from that frame buffer. If there is no incoming signal or the incoming signal is badly degraded the contents of the frame buffer may be the last field or frame that was actually captured or may be blank (blue, black, noise, error message, whatever). But the output signal will always have perfect vertical and horizontal sync pulses. This is important for TV studios that must always put out a signal with perfect sync. A full frame TBC does no image processing (well, some have proc amp controls and some include a line TBC). It does not interpolate missing frames. At best it subtitutes an earlier frame for missing or damaged frames.

[gil900]

A line TBC corrects individual scan lines, aligning them horizontally and making them all the same length (using the horizontal sync pulses as the reference). If the input signal is lost or too badly degraded a line TBC will do nothing useful.

You mean that it corrects this type of error

right?

And this is the only error that it can fix? It can't fix the image jump frames?

A full frame TBC is basically a video capture device. It captures frames to an internal frame buffer and outputs frames from that frame buffer. If there is no incoming signal or the incoming signal is badly degraded the contents of the frame buffer may be the last field or frame that was actually captured or may be blank (blue, black, noise, error message, whatever). But the output signal will always have perfect vertical and horizontal sync pulses. This is important for TV studios that must always put out a signal with perfect sync. A full frame TBC does no image processing (well, some have proc amp controls and some include a line TBC). It does not interpolate missing frames. At best it subtitutes an earlier frame for missing or damaged frames.

OK now I think I understood.
I think this part of the process already done on the computer - If there is no new frame then it shows and uses the last one.
But this - "But the output signal will always have perfect vertical and horizontal sync pulses" does not happening.
My device is not ignoring frames like image jump..

But I think that maybe there is an option to deal with it later in the later processing step by avisynth. I'm right?
Is there plugin / function in avisynth that its job is to detect any "image jump" frames automatically and replace them with fixed frames?

[jagabo]

A line TBC corrects individual scan lines, aligning them horizontally and making them all the same length (using the horizontal sync pulses as the reference). If the input signal is lost or too badly degraded a line TBC will do nothing useful.

You mean that it corrects this type of error

[Attachment 35322 - Click to enlarge]
right?

Yes.

And this is the only error that it can fix? It can't fix the image jump frames?

That is it's main job but it might fix other problems simply because it's better designed than many capture devices. For example, some capture cards occasionally have problem detecting which is the first scan line of a field -- they start with an earlier or later scan line. So the picture bounces up and down by a scan line or two between frames. Another device may be better at detecting the first scan line and won't have that bounce.

A full frame TBC is basically a video capture device. It captures frames to an internal frame buffer and outputs frames from that frame buffer. If there is no incoming signal or the incoming signal is badly degraded the contents of the frame buffer may be the last field or frame that was actually captured or may be blank (blue, black, noise, error message, whatever). But the output signal will always have perfect vertical and horizontal sync pulses. This is important for TV studios that must always put out a signal with perfect sync. A full frame TBC does no image processing (well, some have proc amp controls and some include a line TBC). It does not interpolate missing frames. At best it subtitutes an earlier frame for missing or damaged frames.

OK now I think I understood.
I think this part of the process already done on the computer - If there is no new frame then it shows and uses the last one.

It depends on the capture device. Some stop capturing if the signal is too mangled. Some will falsely detect Macrovision and blank the picture. Some may skip the frame leading audio/video sync problems, etc.

But this - "But the output signal will always have perfect vertical and horizontal sync pulses" does not happening.
My device is not ignoring frames like image jump..

But I think that maybe there is an option to deal with it later in the later processing step by avisynth. I'm right?
Is there plugin / function in avisynth that its job is to detect any "image jump" frames automatically and replace them with fixed frames?

I don't know of any that will automatically fix such problems. You can manually locate the bad frames and insert copies of other frames, or insert motion interpolated frames.

[gil900]

Thank you. you very helpful to me.

I'm probably going to get a VHS with a built-in option to record to DVD disk.
Does this kind of VHS usually have TBC included? If so then what kind of TBC? TBC Line or TBC full frame or both?

I don't know of any that will automatically fix such problems. You can manually locate the bad frames and insert copies of other frames, or insert motion interpolated frames.

This is not an option any more. I did just that some time ago it is very, very painful process.

Maybe there's a way to automatically detect image jumps by looking for unusual motion?
I mean to use some plugin that log unusual motions and maybe in most cases it will be image jumps..

[jagabo]

Maybe there's a way to automatically detect image jumps by looking for unusual motion?

When film is edited by cutting and pasting you can sometimes see the glue at the top or bottom of the frame. And the seam sometimes causes the frame to jump up or down in the projector for one frame. There is a filter that fixes this by detecting scene changes then replacing the bad frame with a copy of the one before or after. I don't remember the name of that filter. It might work for single frame errors but not for longer stretches.

I don't think any filter will recognize the frame in post #19 as motion. But many filters have scene change thresholds that would detect it. Of course, they detect every scene change too.

[gil900]

When film is edited by cutting and pasting you can sometimes see the glue at the top or bottom of the frame.

Can you show me example? I didn't understood.

There is a filter that fixes this by detecting scene changes then replacing the bad frame with a copy of the one before or after.

Can you give me an example of "single frame error" that the filter can detect and fix?
I would love to know the name of the filter.



Other thing - If I am going to insert "motion interpolated frames" then there is no way that I will do it as before - through code in avisynth (The most painful thing I've ever done).

Do you know about some user frindly video editing software (like sony vegas for example)
with easy option to insert motion interpolated frames?