VHS To PC Or DVD Editing and DVD Authoring Help

[JonnyAlpha]

Hi;

Before I give you the background here's what I need help with?

How can I edit large mpg2 captures to cut out unwanted video before I burn to DVD or save the edited file on my NAS for future viewing.

Should I convert the MPEG2 Video if I am going to store it on my NAS for viewing on a PC or Smart TV (using XBMC) over my Network?

File details (As shown after loading up in AVStoDVD)
MPEG-2 Video 7724kpbs - 720x576 - DAR 1.333 - 25 fps (CFR) - Interlaced (TFF) - 2:59:54 hours - 269848 frames.
MPEG-1 Audio Layer 2 - 384 kbps - CBR - 2ch - 48000 Hz - 2:59:54 hours (-168ms Delay) - Internal

I have posted a couple of threads on here many moons ago with regards to VHS Video Capture. I want to archive my VHS Home Videos onto my NAS Storage and also burn to DVD.

My two options are:
1. Capture with VirtualDub / Huffyuv v2.1.1 Codec with BtWinCap Drivers installed using a Studio PCTV Rave to AVI and encode to mpg2 for conversion to DVD as an extra backup.
or
2. Capture direct to mpg2 using my Hauppage HVR1300 and WinTV7 and then author a DVD using the mpg2 file.

So Far:
First I tried to capture with VirtualDub and Huffyuv Codec using my Studio PVTV Raves but I just can't seem to get a decent quality (very grainy). The resolution was set to 720 x 576 data format YUY2 YUV 4.2.2 interleaved. Frame Rate 25FPS.

I switched capture cards and installed my Hauppage HVR1300 and set WinTV7 to Use hardware Acceleration When Possible, Default Analog Recording to Best (To be hohnest its roughly the same as Medium). I did NOT enable 3rd Party Encoders.

The WinTV Hauppage combination resulted in a near perfect capture when played back in Windows Media Player but the file size for approx 3 Hour of footage was a massive 8GB.

This is fine but now I have a problem, I cannot author a DVD using AVStoDVD as the file size is too big and
When I tried to use Avidemux 2.6 to edit the video it loaded it but the video when previewing stops and starts and the audio is well out of sync.

Apart from sitting in front of the VCR and only recording the bits I want I am now a bit stuck!!

[sanlyn]

File details (As shown after loading up in AVStoDVD)
MPEG-2 Video 7724kpbs - 720x576 - DAR 1.333 - 25 fps (CFR) - Interlaced (TFF) - 2:59:54 hours - 269848 frames.
MPEG-1 Audio Layer 2 - 384 kbps - CBR - 2ch - 48000 Hz - 2:59:54 hours (-168ms Delay) - Internal

Before you go any further:

Had to read your post a few times to get what you're doing. And not quite sure what you said. If you captured VHS directly to lossy MPEG2 ((not the best idea, but if that's all you can do so be it), why decode it to lossless AVI? If simple frame-cutting (with no other filtering) is all you're doing, use a smart-rendering MPEG editor that won't re-encode your entire video.

If you capture VHS to lossless YUY2 AVI (which is the best way), edit the AVI as lossless, then get a good MPEG encoder. Once you have your edited MPEG, keep one copy for backup, author it for DVD, then burn the DVD and keep a copy of the DVD if you want.

If you've already taken that VHS->AVi ca[pture to DVD without first editing om AVI, you made a lot of work and grief for yourself.

If I've misinterpreted your first steps, feel free to correct.

The WinTV Hauppage combination resulted in a near perfect capture when played back in Windows Media Player but the file size for approx 3 Hour of footage was a massive 8GB.

Of course. If you encoded at highest quality you probably got about 6500 to 8000 bitrate, so 8GB for 3 hours is about right. You can burn that much DVD onto a double-layer Verbatim DVD+R with room to spare. But if you propose to get 3 hours of "highest quality" DVD onto a single-layer disc, you're dreaming. You'd have to cut the present bitrate in half and re-encode -- and take a very serious quality hit.

[JonnyAlpha]

Thanks for the reply and I will try and explain better. I have two cards a Studio PCTV Rave and Hauppauge HVR1300. Both have to be installed separately as the drivers get mixed up?
My first option (the best way) was to capture lossless to AVI using VirtualDub and edit and then encode to MPEG2 for DVD, the only card that will do this is the PCTV but I cannot capture a decent quality? Connected via Composite Video using BTWincap Drivers.

My second option is to capture using the Hauppauge card, this will not work with V Dub or at least I cannot get it too work, so I have to use WinTV and capture direct to MPEG2.

This is where I got mixed up I wanted to edit the MPEG2 capture but used AVIDemux DOH?

What I need is to:
a. Find out what I am doing wrong with V Dub so that I can get a decent AVI capture.
Or
b. Locate an MPEG2 editor to split and edit the MPEG2 capture.

P.S. is MPEG2 the same as mpg2?

[sanlyn]

I don't know why an MPEG2 is named as "mpg2", but they are the same. If you want to know if the "mpg2" is really encoded as MPEG2, you can open it with the free MediaInfo utility and look at the full "Tree" or "Text" view using MediaInfo's "View" menu. You'll see encoder, version, and lots of other data.

You're correct that capturing tape (I assume you're working with tape source) to lossless AVi is the best way, but I'm not surprised by Pinnacle's performance. Perhaps the quality could be improved by modifying Pinnacle's settings, but I see reports that the product simply is designed for ease of use by users who don't know what they're doing, not for quality. If MPEG is your best option, then the high-quality mode is mandatory especially if your tape source isn't in such great condition.

That done, AviDemux does seem to have a smart rendering feature as far as I know (I don't use it) but whether it's frame specific is another matter; I believe AviDemux allows cutting only on GOP segments. By that I mean, if you specify a cutting point, the result might be a few frames or seconds off. Users of that software should be able to clarify. For simple MPEG edits I always used TMPGenc's MPEG editors. TMPGEnc Smart Renderer 4 is the current version. It accepts several formats, has frame-specific smart rendering and a few other features, some very capable smart-rendering engines, doesn't cost a fortune, resamples audio at the proper rate and sampling frequency for DVD if necessary, and offers a free trial. We would not recommend Pinnacle for anything, period.

You didn't say which version or which type of capture connection with WinTV, but they don't work with VirtualDub capture. So if you're stuck with MPEG capture but want to do some heavy duty cleanup or denoising, you would decode that MPEG to loss AVI with Lagarith (some versions of huffyuv won't compress to YV12, which is MPEG's native colorspace) using Avisynth. That AVI could be filtered, cut, etc., with Avisynth and/or VirtualDub. Then re-encoded the AVI with a decent MPEG encoder. AVS2DVD will get you from AVI to MPEG and uses HCenc's excellent encoder.

As stated, whether you edit with MPEG or take the lossless route, getting 3 hours of VHS source onto a single DVD disc won't happen without a much lower bitrate and quality loss. If you must have one higher quality disc, bank on DVD+R double-layer. You can author with any of several non-reencoding authoring programs and burn with ImgBurn. Standard players will accept double-layer DVD. Most commercial DVDs are made that way.

Don't try these suggestions with the full 3 hours of video. Test with short segments and check the results. If you want someone to check your MPEg capture for more detailed suggestions, you can cut a short segment using the free DGIndex utility and post an m2v sample here (the m2v will be MPEG video without audio). Or you can copy the text of a MediaInfo report or export a text file on the MPEG capture and post it here.

[usually_quiet]

Before I give you the background here's what I need help with?

How can I edit large mpg2 captures to cut out unwanted video before I burn to DVD or save the edited file on my NAS for future viewing.

When I tried to use Avidemux 2.6 to edit the video it loaded it but the video when previewing stops and starts and the audio is well out of sync.

Avidemux is probably the worst MPEG-2 editor I ever tried. There are other free or relatively low-cost paid MPEG-2 editors: MPEG StreamClip, MPEG-VCR, Mpg2Cut2, and Cuttermaran. If edits produced by those have sync issues, then your captures are probably missing some frames. VideoReDo Plus might work for editing those files.

[JonnyAlpha]

Thanks for taking the time to post a very comprehensive answer it is much appreciated

I don't know why an MPEG2 is named as "mpg2", but they are the same. If you want to know if the "mpg2" is really encoded as MPEG2, you can open it with the free MediaInfo utility and look at the full "Tree" or "Text" view using MediaInfo's "View" menu. You'll see encoder, version, and lots of other data.

Thanks

You're correct that capturing tape (I assume you're working with tape source) to lossless AVi is the best way, but I'm not surprised by Pinnacle's performance. Perhaps the quality could be improved by modifying Pinnacle's settings, but I see reports that the product simply is designed for ease of use by users who don't know what they're doing, not for quality.

Yes I am capturing from good old VHS using a Pinnacle Studio PCTV Rave using a modified WDM Video Capture Driver for the BT848 Chipset. Maybe my problem is because I am running Windows 7 Ultimate 32 Bit, I have a Dual Boot System with Windows XP Pro so maybe i'll try that?

If MPEG is your best option, then the high-quality mode is mandatory especially if your tape source isn't in such great condition.

If I cannot get the PCTV going then its my only option.

For simple MPEG edits I always used TMPGenc's MPEG editors. TMPGEnc Smart Renderer 4 is the current version. It accepts several formats, has frame-specific smart rendering and a few other features, some very capable smart-rendering engines, doesn't cost a fortune, resamples audio at the proper rate and sampling frequency for DVD if necessary, and offers a free trial. We would not recommend Pinnacle for anything, period.

Yes I had heard of TMPGEnc but need to get it.

You didn't say which version or which type of capture connection with WinTV, but they don't work with VirtualDub capture.

WinTV7 using my Haupagge HVR1300, connected SCART from VHS to Composite into the capture card.

So if you're stuck with MPEG capture but want to do some heavy duty cleanup or denoising, you would decode that MPEG to loss AVI with Lagarith (some versions of huffyuv won't compress to YV12, which is MPEG's native colorspace) using Avisynth. That AVI could be filtered, cut, etc., with Avisynth and/or VirtualDub. Then re-encoded the AVI with a decent MPEG encoder. AVS2DVD will get you from AVI to MPEG and uses HCenc's excellent encoder.

Wont that route cause a lot of degredation in the video quality?

As stated, whether you edit with MPEG or take the lossless route, getting 3 hours of VHS source onto a single DVD disc won't happen without a much lower bitrate and quality loss.

Didnt want to get 3 hours on a DVD it just happens that the first VHS that I captured was 3 hours long, that's why I want to edit it to cut out all the boring stuff before I author onto a DVD.

Don't try these suggestions with the full 3 hours of video. Test with short segments and check the results.

Does that mean I WONT be able to edit my 3 hour long MPEG2 capture? If not I'll have to recapture the same VHS in 2 or 3 goes?

If you want someone to check your MPEg capture for more detailed suggestions, you can cut a short segment using the free DGIndex utility and post an m2v sample here (the m2v will be MPEG video without audio). Or you can copy the text of a MediaInfo report or export a text file on the MPEG capture and post it here.

Will do thanks

[JonnyAlpha]

Sorry forgot to mention I have several PC's, my high end one is an FM2 board with a Dual Core AMD A6 processor but the rig I built for capturing was built out of parts made redundant from my latest upgrade. Its an Abit AN-M2HD mobo with an AMD 64x2 4000 CPU with 2GB DDR2 Ram. I do have an AS Rock Dual Core CPU Mobo kicking around womewhere so maybe I'll do a rebuild.

I have also read that you should capture to a spare HDD and not to the same HDD that your OS is installed onto, and not to USB, unless that was an old post? I am capturing to my FreeNAS Box over a 100MBit Network.

[sanlyn]

So if you're stuck with MPEG capture but want to do some heavy duty cleanup or denoising, you would decode that MPEG to loss AVI with Lagarith (some versions of huffyuv won't compress to YV12, which is MPEG's native colorspace) using Avisynth. That AVI could be filtered, cut, etc., with Avisynth and/or VirtualDub. Then re-encoded the AVI with a decent MPEG encoder. AVS2DVD will get you from AVI to MPEG and uses HCenc's excellent encoder.

Wont that route cause a lot of degredation in the video quality?

No. Note that these procedures were prefaced with "want to do some heavy duty cleanup or denoising". That sort of work requires several steps. In MPEG editors, that means re-rendering, possibly a few times. You want to avoid that. If simple edits are all you're concerned with, just go with the smart-rendering editors and forget lossles.

Don't try these suggestions with the full 3 hours of video. Test with short segments and check the results.

Does that mean I WONT be able to edit my 3 hour long MPEG2 capture? If not I'll have to recapture the same VHS in 2 or 3 goes?

That's for testing. Who wants to wait for a 3-hour edit job to finish before checking the results? Edit out a short segment or two, see how it goes, check your settings, etc. Then have at it.

[hech54]

Avidemux is probably the worst MPEG-2 editor I ever tried. There are other free or relatively low-cost paid MPEG-2 editors: MPEG StreamClip, MPEG-VCR, Mpg2Cut2, and Cuttermaran. If edits produced by those have sync issues, then your captures are probably missing some frames. VideoReDo Plus might work for editing those files.

I use AviDemux almost daily. Used it yesterday to edit and adjust the sync on captures where I dropped 8 frames during the capture. MPEG-VCR gets me more accurate cuts but does nothing to fix sync errors.
Sync errors are a capturing problem, not an editing software problem. AviDemux does NOT CAUSE sync errors.....especially in something as straight-forward as MPEG2 files.

[usually_quiet]

Avidemux is probably the worst MPEG-2 editor I ever tried. There are other free or relatively low-cost paid MPEG-2 editors: MPEG StreamClip, MPEG-VCR, Mpg2Cut2, and Cuttermaran. If edits produced by those have sync issues, then your captures are probably missing some frames. VideoReDo Plus might work for editing those files.

I use AviDemux almost daily. Used it yesterday to edit and adjust the sync on captures where I dropped 8 frames during the capture. MPEG-VCR gets me more accurate cuts but does nothing to fix sync errors.
Sync errors are a capturing problem, not an editing software problem. AviDemux does NOT CAUSE sync errors.....especially in something as straight-forward as MPEG2 files.

Good for you. It was worthless when I tried it a couple of years ago. It often crashed when I tried editing .ts or .mpg files from my digital TV tuner card, and there were only one or two missing frames in these files. If it did manage to finish, the audio and video were out of sync. I bought VideoReDo Plus not long after that, which is so much better that there is no reason for me to try Avidemux for editing MPEG-2 again.

[JonnyAlpha]

Hi;

Just following up on this post, try and try but I cannot get Virtual Dub to make a decent capture so looks like I will have to stick with the Hauppauge HVR1300 capture to MPEG2 using WinTV7 (it is decent quality just mega size files).


I have AVIDEMUX on my PC and Mac and MPEGSRTREAMCLIP on my Mac as well as iMovie.


Can anyone recommend whether to use AVIDEMUX / MPEGSTREAMCLIP or even iMOVIE to edit my MPEG2. And point me to a decent tutorial?
What should I use to author the DVD?


My planned outputs for the video will be:


DVD
Copy saved on my NAS in either edited MPEG2 or MP4 just needed for playback over my Network onto any of my PC's / Macs or Home Cinema via AppleTV2 / XBMC.

[usually_quiet]

Can anyone recommend whether to use AVIDEMUX / MPEGSTREAMCLIP or even iMOVIE to edit my MPEG2. And point me to a decent tutorial?
What should I use to author the DVD?

MPEGStreamClip has a decent manual/help file. I suggest you start there to find out how to use it for editing. I don't use the other editors you mentioned.

AVStoDVD is a easy to use basic authoring program for Windows. DVDStyler is a popular authoring program for Windows and OSX