Alright, first Blu-Ray Player

[hanshotfirst1138]

While I have no home theater equipment to speak of (my DVD player is still connected to my CRT T.V. via coaxial splitter, for Frith's sake), the DVD companies, being the bastards that they are, have forced almost all of the extras that a fanboy such as I wants to see on the BR, I've decided, that with prices finally at manageable points, I've begrudgingly considered joining the switchover. A few questions, however. Having a number of DVDs from different regions, I know that BR players are backwards-compatible, but evidently, unlike my neat little Phillips which will play many different things with a simple button combination, BR hacking is evidently more complicated. BR is a much more sophisticated game that DVD (I'm particularly interested in a wireless wifi connection and NETFLIX streaming, amongst others), and evidently, a simple hack won't do the trick. Where do I start? I must admit, I'm reticent to buy from anyone buy a sanctioned retailer (AMAZON, etc.) but evidently, jury-rigging a BR play takes much skill and I'm rather reluctant to buy from some fellow with a sottering kit (no offense to anyone). Exactly what are my options? Is anything coming down the pike to ease the pain? Or am I looking at a significantly expensive prospect? I know of course I am, but how much are we talking?

Commence killing the n00b.

[videopoo]

Youre rambling! What exactly do you want to do?

[neomaine]

blah blah blah DVD blah blah blah BR blah bloo blah blech Netflix phhh hmmm blec blah blah blah

Translation:

Please recommend a BR set top player the can handle multiple regions, is wireless capable and offers Netflix.



You can use the DVD Players list in the "Lists" section to the left and put in your search critieria. Should pull up some options for you. Maybe even some reviews.

I picked up a Samsung C5900 (or was it a C6000?, don't remember now) and it plays almost as many formats as my WDTV Live, has wired (my recommendation if you're streaming) and wireless connectivity and has Netflix and many other widgets to play with. I don't do any multi-region stuff so you'd have to check that out on your own.

[jman98]

Note that no Samsung players sold in North America support region free playback on any disc type. For all I know they may not even support region free PAL playback.

Here's a recent thread on a player supposedly sold in brick and motor stores in North America that some people say ships ready to go in region free mode.
https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/331332-Insignia-multi-region
I have no experience at all with this player. Do note that shipping such a player violates BluRay licensing terms so it is probably just a matter of time before this ability vanishes. Be sure you can take the player back for a full refund if it doesn't work.

Your only other option at this time would be one of the expensive Oppo players. You'll need to research the current status of these players. The last thing I had heard was that they required a hardware mod to do region free playback, but some sellers were doing this for you.

[MOVIEGEEK]

It's easier and cheaper just to buy a region-free DVD player and buy a regular BD player since they are constantly updating BD firmware to cope with new encryption and BD-Java software. The DVD standard is final whereas the BD standard isn't.

[hanshotfirst1138]

Do note that shipping such a player violates BluRay licensing terms so it is probably just a matter of time before this ability vanishes.

I'm taking it that Blu-Ray folks crack down hard on any region-free capable players, thus elminating the possibility that this will be any easier in the future?

Your only other option at this time would be one of the expensive Oppo players. You'll need to research the current status of these players. The last thing I had heard was that they required a hardware mod to do region free playback, but some sellers were doing this for you.

What kind of hardware modding is necessary precisely?

[hanshotfirst1138]

*bump*

Fate, it seems, has forced my hand. There'll probably be some overlap, if not a lot, but I've posted this on a number of other forums, but I'm collecting information, so I'll put it up here as well.

My wonderful Phillips DVP-5982 has just died on me. I've tried getting a cleaner, and still no luck. I think it's permanently dead. As pretty much all noteworthy special features have moved to Blu-Ray, I've been dragging my feet about the changeover, but now I'm apparently going to have no choice but to switch over.

Unfortunately, there's a rather significant stumbling block in the form of region-coding. Whereas my wonderful little Phillips player could be unlocked with a few keystrokes, evidently the manufacturers of Blu-Ray caught onto this and have made it considerably more difficult to unlock BR players. Apparently, it requires some actual physical modding which generally has to be done by a third party. I'd rather do it myself, but apparently that is quite difficult. Thinking of looking at eBay, but there're so many choices, I don't know where to start! There is, of course, the famed Oppo BDP-93, but it's a $500 player with $150+ mod!

A bit of an explanation, this is unbelivably long-winded, so if anyone gets to the end of this post, they deserve a medal. I mean, my initial thought was to buy a mid-range player (I work at Meijer and can get a 10% discount, but we mostly have mid-range stuff at best, sadly.), but I then discovered that unlike DVD, BR can't simply be hacked with the remote. Since I still have a CRT TV with a coax connector, so it seems like a bit of overkill, but but every special feature worth a damn seems to have moved to BR. I've thought about buying something pretty good to prepare for the future, but apparently region-free BR is pricey. Then there's the world now. I'd like to be able to do stuff like stream YouTube, Hulu, Netflix, etc. but that's not essential, plus I have my computer for it, or if need be, I can buy a Roku box or something.

I'd have to imagine that pretty much all BR players come with HDMI hookups and will upscale DVDs and have 1080p at this point. I have no interest in 3-D (though I have a sinking feel the industry will attempt to force my hand on that count), but I would like to be able to connect wireless for what are apparently nifty features. I have a few VCDs and a number of multi-region DVDs I'd like to play, and I'd like to be ready for multi-region Blu as well.

I live with my parents at the moment, though of course that could be changing soon. I've always thought of building some some small home theater, the problem is location. I tend to watch my DVDs on bed in my room, where there's no room for surround sound and such. I could always set up a proper HT in the basement and just get a nice LCD TV and stereo for my room, but any level of HT is expensive, and I'm notoriously frugal even with a significant amount of money saved up... I also have an irritating Aspergers-inflected tendency to research the living hell out things before I buy them in an attempt to balance money and quality. Anyway...

I'd consider anything over the $200 mark a bit pricey,
I'd probably go up to about $300, but I don't know if I can get anything decent enough in that range. Admittedly, now DVD players are cheap and Blu-Ray players are getting cheaper (I work at a Meier where we have DVD players at ridiculously low prices, but if you're looking for something region-free, then you can't just grab whatever.). I WAS going to buy a BR player and put my old one down in the basement when I never had one, but so much for THAT plan....

Advice from anyone? I've been unsure who to ask, but I've heard this is one of the best AV and home theater forums on the net....

[hanshotfirst1138]

blah blah blah DVD blah blah blah BR blah bloo blah blech Netflix phhh hmmm blec blah blah blah

Translation:

Please recommend a BR set top player the can handle multiple regions, is wireless capable and offers Netflix.



You can use the DVD Players list in the "Lists" section to the left and put in your search critieria. Should pull up some options for you. Maybe even some reviews.

I picked up a Samsung C5900 (or was it a C6000?, don't remember now) and it plays almost as many formats as my WDTV Live, has wired (my recommendation if you're streaming) and wireless connectivity and has Netflix and many other widgets to play with. I don't do any multi-region stuff so you'd have to check that out on your own.

The "lists" section doesn't seem to have a region-free option, perhaps my dumb ass just isn't seeing it.

[sanlyn]

OOps. Sorry, I had to withdraw my recommendation after re-reading the O.P.'s later posts.

Region free? In the U.S.? Ever heard of a place called Hollywood?

[HemLok]

If the goal is to be able to play DVDs and Blu-ray discs from various regions then I'd recommend going the Oppo route with a hardware region-free modification kit which are available from a number of places (ie JVB Digital and Bluraychip.dk). You'll have everything you are looking for. Build quality is excellent and DVD upconversion is superb. You'll pay a bit more for an Oppo plus the added cost of the region-free kit but it can be done and it works beautifully versus many many players that simply cannot be made to be region-free at all.

[hanshotfirst1138]

Region free? In the U.S.? Ever heard of a place called Hollywood?

I have, but it's like 3,000 miles away :P. In the days of DVD, I could just buy a Phillips, click a few keys, and all was well. Heck, I'd heard many a tale of guys hocking them at comic-cons and such. Apparently Blu-Ray is a much more complicated issue, requiring actual hardware modding, etc. A cursory search finds a few inexpensive ones that Do BR A and 0-6 DVD, but its seems that ABC BR is where things get pricey just to start with.

Many players have most of the features you specify, but getting more than one with all those features at your price point is out of the question. Panasonic seems to offer the best performance, but reliability in all the popular brands is at pretty much the same junk level, so a name doesn't mean that much. If you want performance + features + lifespan you'd have to go with Oppo or upscale Denons, or higher.

I've been checking eBay and cross-checking various players against their Amazon reviews, but you are quite correct that most of the time, when something has a fairly low price, there seems to be a reason for it. Like I said, I can largely forgo 3-D, most streaming stuff outside of updates, etc. I hadn't heard of Deons, I knew of Oppo, but that's way out of my price range. What's higher than them? What do you mean by "reliability?" A short 2 year or so lifespan?

If the goal is to be able to play DVDs and Blu-ray discs from various regions then I'd recommend going the Oppo route with a hardware region-free modification kit which are available from a number of places (ie JVB Digital and Bluraychip.dk). You'll have everything you are looking for. Build quality is excellent and DVD upconversion is superb. You'll pay a bit more for an Oppo plus the added cost of the region-free kit but it can be done and it works beautifully versus many many players that simply cannot be made to be region-free at all.

It looks like I'd have to pay significantly more than "a bit more," even with the new model out, the price of the old one doesn't seem to have dropped.

[HemLok]

What kind of hardware modding is necessary precisely?

Here's an example of the directions for one of the region-free hardware mods for an Oppo BDP-93: http://www.bluraychip.dk/attachment.php?id_attachment=7. That links to a PDF installation manual. It's actually not that hard to do and requires no special skills. I think I had my hardware mod installed in my BDP-93 in under 10 minutes. It's been a long time since I did it. You just need to be patient and follow directions.

[sanlyn]

HemLock, thanks for the Oppo mod link. I had heard of such mods but never came across a link.

[HemLok]

I hadn't heard of Deons, I knew of Oppo, but that's way out of my price range. What's higher than them? What do you mean by "reliability?" A short 2 year or so lifespan?

Oppo is a rare breed. Their product quality is superb but yet it's available but at a lower cost. I know the Oppo players do seem much more expensive than other players but the quality and build of the product is one of the reasons as to why. I've owned a BDP-83 since the product was released. I've been using it regularly since the product was on the market and it's still working beautifully. I also purchased a BDP-93 when it was released. That player, too, is still working beautifully. Oppo players have a good lifespan and in the event there is a problem then contact Oppo. They are very good about fixing any problems and I've even heard great stories about them fixing DVD and Blu-ray players that were out of warranty.

It looks like I'd have to pay significantly more than "a bit more," even with the new model out, the price of the old one doesn't seem to have dropped.

You get what you pay for and given the quality of Oppo products they really are worth the money, IMO.

There's a company called Lexicon. They sold a Blu-ray player for $3500. If you opened the casing of this player you'd find an Oppo BDP-83 player inside of it. They didn't even remove the outside casing of the Oppo player. They just put the Oppo in a Lexicon designed casing. Yes, Lexicon did make some modifications to the audio portion of the player but Lexicon took a product that Oppo manufactured and sold for in the $500 area and then marked it up to $3500.

[HemLok]

HemLock, thanks for the Oppo mod link. I had heard of such mods but never came across a link.

Glad to help. There is also IMEGStore (http://imegstore.com) which sells hardware mods cheaper than elsewhere but, personally, I recommend JVB Digital and Bluraychip.dk.

[HemLok]

hanshotfirst1138, I definitely understand someone not wanting to shell out a lot of money. Do some research and read up on Blu-ray players and do some reading on Oppo as a company and the players including the lifespan. Finding a player than can be made region-free for DVD and Blu-ray is not an easy task. At the end of the day it is you that needs to be happy with whatever decision you make.

For my uses I wouldn't trade either of my Oppo players for anything else other than maybe the Oppo BDP-103 which I haven't bought... yet. But, no, neither the BDP-83 and BDP-93 enforce Cinavia protection so I wouldn't trade then for anything.

[hanshotfirst1138]

Finally picked up an HDTV, nothing fancy, a Westinghouse that Best Buy had on sale, but it does its job. Now I really need the player to go with it. I'm looking for something region-free (ABC 0-9) that can do apps (Hulu, Netflix, YouTube, BD Live, etc.) via wifi, upscales, and is between the $200-300 range. Does any such thing exist? I've been combing eBay and cross-referencing it with Amazon, the reviews for most players in that range are quite middling, and of course you get what you pay for. Is there such a player?



God, I miss the days when I could buy a player and the store and just tweak the damn thing with the remote. You know, I bend over backwards to actually buy the damn imports and actually pay for the damn things instead of downloads and stuff, but they don't make it easy.

[jman98]

It is still possible to find region free Blu Ray players in North America, but it takes a LOT of work to do so. Wanting apps may be a deal breaker though.

Some older Insignia models could be made region free by installing older firmware that let you set the Blu Ray and DVD region to whatever you liked. We had a recent report where some guy said he bought a Philips BluRay player that could convert between PAL and NTSC and could be made region free with a code. But prior to this we had other reports of various Philips BluRay players sold in North America that could not convert between PAL and NTSC although they could be unlocked. Being unable to convert is a deal breaker for a lot of TVs sold in North America, like Samsung.

You can always look at
http://www.world-import.com
http://www.220-electronics.com
and see what they currently have for sale.

[usually_quiet]

An online specialty retailer is your best bet. These are two examples of stores selling the type of product you are looking for.
http://www.220-electronics.com/blu-ray-dvd.html
http://www.world-import.com/region_free_blu_ray_DVD_players.htm

I don't know if any support apps.

Too late. jman98 beat me.

[Edit]220 electronics has a handy product comparison chart. There are a few players listed that support apps.

[hanshotfirst1138]

It is still possible to find region free Blu Ray players in North America, but it takes a LOT of work to do so. Wanting apps may be a deal breaker though.

I was under the impression that finding one in a brick and mortar store was an impossibility. I initially naively believed that I could buy one and mod it like the old DVD players, but I soon found it wasn't so simple. Plus, as far as I understand it, you need to do actual hardware modding, since Blu-Ray players require regular updates (which would obviously be much easier with wifi).

You can always look at
http://www.world-import.com
http://www.220-electronics.com
and see what they currently have for sale.

I've been looking at these sites, as well as scouring eBay. How reliable are they? When I find players for a decent price on eBay and cross-check them with Amazon reviews, they tend to be mixed. Obviously, you get what you pay for, so it's looking like there isn't an option that's all that inexpensive.

[Edit]220 electronics has a handy product comparison chart. There are a few players listed that support apps.

I've thought about just buying the most inexpensive one I could find that still had wifi and then buying a Roku box or an Apple TV or something, but my HDTV only has two HDMI hookups, so it'd be a pain, I figured I'd kill everything with one stone. The HDTV was an inexpensive one I picked up on sale. Obviously, I'd love to have a Panasonic plasma TV, an Oppo player, and a Bose surround sounds system, but that's pretty expensive (to say nothing of where I'd put it), and for the time being, I'd like to just finally be in the 21th century.

Of course, it's currently summer, and my blasted bedroom gets so hot, I'm not currently using the HDTV as much as I'd hoped anyway...

[sanlyn]

Obviously, I'd love to have a Panasonic plasma TV, an Oppo player, and a Bose surround sounds system, but that's pretty expensive

Hm. Panny plasma, not too bad. Oppo = hard to go wrong with that move. Bose....? Don't be a sucker.

Unless you just bide your time and and stay on the watch for the magic bullet that does all you want, you're kinda stuck with leaving the confines of BestBuy (and even BestBuy sells Denon products). The price range of Oppo is bargain basement next to some of its competition -- none of which you'll ever see in a low-fi joint like BestBuy. The typical brand-new average-consumer shelf product is very short-lived, tin-and-plastic stuff. Nothing new is going to be region-free without putting your M.I.T. engineering degree to work on it. Then again, if you think your Westy HDTV is "adequate", you'd be wasting a good Oppo on it anyway.

On the other hand, products like Oppo will have to give in to Hollywood pressure sooner or later. Better get one while you can.

[jman98]

It is still possible to find region free Blu Ray players in North America, but it takes a LOT of work to do so. Wanting apps may be a deal breaker though.

I was under the impression that finding one in a brick and mortar store was an impossibility. I initially naively believed that I could buy one and mod it like the old DVD players, but I soon found it wasn't so simple. Plus, as far as I understand it, you need to do actual hardware modding, since Blu-Ray players require regular updates (which would obviously be much easier with wifi).

Actually most players should not need regular updates at all. Well, if you have Sony or Samsung, then maybe they make a player that won't work without them, but strictly speaking you don't really have to update your players. Some BD Live features may need updates to fully work, but if you don't care about that then you should be able to get by without update. I say "should" because I have done so, but I cannot rule out that some company isn't making a player that does actually require updates.

I've thought about just buying the most inexpensive one I could find that still had wifi and then buying a Roku box or an Apple TV or something, but my HDTV only has two HDMI hookups, so it'd be a pain, I figured I'd kill everything with one stone. The HDTV was an inexpensive one I picked up on sale. Obviously, I'd love to have a Panasonic plasma TV, an Oppo player, and a Bose surround sounds system, but that's pretty expensive (to say nothing of where I'd put it), and for the time being, I'd like to just finally be in the 21th century.

There are cheap HDMI switches if you need to connect more devices to your TV than you have HDMI connections for.

[hanshotfirst1138]

Panny plasma, not too bad. Oppo = hard to go wrong with that move. Bose....? Don't be a sucker.

I take I shouldn't believe the hype about Bose? I've heard that after Pioneer went their way, Panasonic where the best around.

Unless you just bide your time and and stay on the watch for the magic bullet that does all you want, you're kinda stuck with leaving the confines of BestBuy (and even BestBuy sells Denon products).

Like I said, eBay. Or the aforementioned websites, though I'm reticent unless I hear either way about their reliability..

Nothing new is going to be region-free without putting your M.I.T. engineering degree to work on it.

I was an English lit major .

Then again, if you think your Westy HDTV is "adequate", you'd be wasting a good Oppo on it anyway.

I looks fine to me, I just have no point of comparison for it beside the CRT TV on which I subsisted for all of those years. Since it was only in $300 range and I got it at Best Buy, I assumed it wasn't anything top-of-the-line.

On the other hand, products like Oppo will have to give in to Hollywood pressure sooner or later. Better get one while you can.

In other words, they'll get swallowed up by some big giant corporation who'll buy them?

[QUOTE=jman98;2253155]

Actually most players should not need regular updates at all.

Really? I was under the impression it was pretty standard with BR players. Whatever is wrong with my PS2 that I use in the basement in place of an extra DVD player-no counter, few settings, no adjustments for DVD, etc.-it does play any region one DVD I put into it with a minimum of fuss.

Well, if you have Sony or Samsung, then maybe they make a player that won't work without them, but strictly speaking you don't really have to update your players. Some BD Live features may need updates to fully work, but if you don't care about that then you should be able to get by without update. I say "should" because I have done so, but I cannot rule out that some company isn't making a player that does actually require updates.

I have my eye on a Sony at the moment, but I wouldn't be surprised if some companies are pushing that for the future, as you say. Or put out discs which will require updates and such to play.

There are cheap HDMI switches if you need to connect more devices to your TV than you have HDMI connections for.

That my wind up being my most viable option if push comes to shove.

[usually_quiet]

It is still possible to find region free Blu Ray players in North America, but it takes a LOT of work to do so. Wanting apps may be a deal breaker though.

I was under the impression that finding one in a brick and mortar store was an impossibility. I initially naively believed that I could buy one and mod it like the old DVD players, but I soon found it wasn't so simple. Plus, as far as I understand it, you need to do actual hardware modding, since Blu-Ray players require regular updates (which would obviously be much easier with wifi).

You can always look at
http://www.world-import.com
http://www.220-electronics.com
and see what they currently have for sale.

I've been looking at these sites, as well as scouring eBay. How reliable are they? When I find players for a decent price on eBay and cross-check them with Amazon reviews, they tend to be mixed. Obviously, you get what you pay for, so it's looking like there isn't an option that's all that inexpensive.

[Edit]220 electronics has a handy product comparison chart. There are a few players listed that support apps.

I've thought about just buying the most inexpensive one I could find that still had wifi and then buying a Roku box or an Apple TV or something, but my HDTV only has two HDMI hookups, so it'd be a pain, I figured I'd kill everything with one stone. The HDTV was an inexpensive one I picked up on sale. Obviously, I'd love to have a Panasonic plasma TV, an Oppo player, and a Bose surround sounds system, but that's pretty expensive (to say nothing of where I'd put it), and for the time being, I'd like to just finally be in the 21th century.

Of course, it's currently summer, and my blasted bedroom gets so hot, I'm not currently using the HDTV as much as I'd hoped anyway...

I do not know from personal experience, if any of the online sources mentioned in the course of this thread are reliable. I have not dealt with any of them because I don't need a region free player. Both stores have been around for a while and get good reviews from most customers at resellerratings.com
http://www.resellerratings.com/store/220_electronics
http://www.resellerratings.com/store/World_Gift_Center

sanlyn's views are not representative of the membership of this website in general. Most of us do not own expensive gear. If you don't feel you can afford a $500 Blu-Ray player, don't buy one.

The $70 LG I bought for my parents as a Christmas gift does a good job playing TV shows I record for them (actually just Mom now. Dad died a few months ago.) and 2D Blu-Ray movies on their older 2D Samsung LCD. I use a PC to watch Blu-Ray movies, but I'd look at LG's players again if I decided I wanted a dedicated Blu-Ray player.

[sanlyn]

I think most members would agree that Oppo players are a cut above the average, if for no other reasons than their exception build quality and features. I agree, a $500 or $900 player is beyond the means of most members -- except those who spend $800 for Premiere Pro and use it for nothing more than cut-and-join, which one can do with many free editors. It was suggested by more than one post because it has almost all of the features the O.P. specified and is known for longevity and the ability to get updates for new features. I saved up for 6 years and did without BD to get mine, so it wasn't purchased on a whim. I just don't like paying $100 for gear and end up paying for it three or four times every time something explodes. Been there, done that, and can't afford it.

I don't doubt there are plenty of LG's and Pannies and Coby's around that will "work". My dad has used a $50 Coby for 4 years. Region-free is the question, though. And the Oppo is still one of few new players that has component outputs for HD as well as the usual HDMI garbage, and they're known for being able to play just about any format. But, yes, you're absolutely correct: they aren't cheap.

Somewhere on the planet there has be a used region-free player from the fairly recent past that still works and doesn't require a second mortgage..

[usually_quiet]

I think most members would agree that Oppo players are a cut above the average, if for no other reasons than their exception build quality and features. I agree, a $500 or $900 player is beyond the means of most members -- except those who spend $800 for Premiere Pro and use it for nothing more than cut-and-join, which one can do with many free editors. It was suggested by more than one post because it has almost all of the features the O.P. specified and is known for longevity and the ability to get updates for new features. I saved up for 6 years and did without BD to get mine, so it wasn't purchased on a whim. I just don't like paying $100 for gear and end up paying for it three or four times every time something explodes. Been there, done that, and can't afford it.

Your argument that expensive players actually save you money makes no sense. Someone could buy seven $70 LG Blu-Ray players or five $100 players instead of one $500 Oppo. Even if the inexpensive players only lasts 2 years (and most will last longer) the Oppo would have to last at least 10 years to be a break-even purchase. Players modded to be region-free cost more, but I have a feeling the OP would be better served financially by buying three successive generations of those, over buying one Oppo. At the speed technology moves, it's likely that in 6 years time, and certain that in 10 years time, today's Oppo will be a relic.

I don't doubt there are plenty of LG's and Pannies and Coby's around that will "work". My dad has used a $50 Coby for 4 years. Region-free is the question, though. And the Oppo is still one of few new players that has component outputs for HD as well as the usual HDMI garbage, and they're known for being able to play just about any format. But, yes, you're absolutely correct: they aren't cheap.

The online sources mentioned in this thread have players that are region free, play most formats, provide apps, and still cost a whole lot less than an Oppo. Most people prefer HDMI and with a recent TV, no longer require analog component output on a new player. You are in the minority here in believing that component video is superior to HDMI for use with LCD and Plasma TVs.

Somewhere on the planet there has be a used region-free player from the fairly recent past that still works and doesn't require a second mortgage..

So now you are recommending that the OP buy a used high-end player, that could still cost more than a typical Blu-Ray player, won't last as long for the new owner as a new high-end player, and possibly has other drawbacks that caused the original owner to sell it.

[sanlyn]

The O.P. can use whatever he wants. I'm not objecting, I'm supplying recommendations -- just as others did. I don't disagree with any of them.

I have 8 HDMI cables, now using 4. The 8 wires are the result of auditioning about 2 dozen of those idiotic Ethernet wire designs, from the $1.95 Amazon and CablesForLess trash to $300 designer garbage from Cardas (which I returned the next day. Horrible image). One of the winners came with the Oppo player. One is from Audioquest. One is from QED. The others are from ThatCable (cheap, but great, snappy image and clean audio).

If you don't like component connections, my best advice is that you shouldn't annoy yourself by using them. I'm using four. Two of them connect my Hauppauge PVR and its TV pass-thru. Two are on first-class players that don't have HDMI.

[usually_quiet]

The O.P. can use whatever he wants. I'm not objecting, I'm supplying recommendations -- just as others did. I don't disagree with any of them.

I have 8 HDMI cables, now using 4. The 8 wires are the result of auditioning about 2 dozen of those idiotic Ethernet wire designs, from the $1.95 Amazon and CablesForLess trash to $300 designer garbage from Cardas (which I returned the next day. Horrible image). One of the winners came with the Oppo player. One is from Audioquest. One is from QED. The others are from ThatCable (cheap, but great, snappy image and clean audio).

If you don't like component connections, my best advice is that you shouldn't annoy yourself by using them. I'm using four. Two of them connect my Hauppauge PVR and its TV pass-thru. Two are on first-class players that don't have HDMI.

On the cost-of-ownership side, I have two Toshiba RD-XS34 machines, retail MSRP $500 each (I paid about 80% of that via B&H Photo in New York), from 2004. They have made thousands of recordings that were burned to disc, and played hundreds of those discs and retail issues. Both work perfectly. I have a $400 Denon circa 2005 that has no problems whatsoever. In the meantime I went thru 4 Panasonic machines, MSRP $200 each. 3 of them developed bad optical drives (that's 6 Ben Franklins down the toilet). The 4th still works, maybe because I only use it occasionally for pass-thru and to get quick info on my disc collection catalog. Then there was the $150 SONY player that died after 3 months, the $45 Toshiba dead 1 week out of warranty, a $100 RCA defective out of the box, and a Panny ES-10 likewise. My surviving recorders and players were/are used daily, either recording and burning, or playing, and often I've recorded on the Toshibas switching back and forth in program mode for many hours, on one occasion for 48 hours while I was on vacation (Luv those TCM marathons!). I think I got my money's worth.

You can't really compare your experience with DVD players to what will likely be true for Blu-Ray players. The DVD spec and component video have not changed significantly since 2004, while the Blu-Ray spec, AACS licensing requirements for Blu-Ray players, and the HDMI spec are still evolving. That makes it more likely that current Blu-Ray players will become obsolete within 10 years.

In other threads you mentioned one or more of your Toshiba recorders needed repairs (a new burner?) to keep it operating. Did that statement apply to these Toshiba recorders? My $200 Panasonic DMR-ES10 from 2005 still works too, after paying $80 for a minor repair in 2006. The burner is slowly failing, but after 8 years of regular use I don't think it owes me anything. The $40 Philips DVD player I bought for my folks in 2009 is still working perfectly.

...and older DVD recorders like yours and mine are now indeed relics for many consumers in at least a couple of respects beyond the fact that DVD is standard definition only, and more and more TV is broadcast in HD:

1. They have analog tuners, which are not useful for tuning digital cable TV or OTA TV via an antenna. The requirement for an external tuner that requires users to manually change channels is a no-go for a lot of people looking for a recording device.

2. They don't have HDMI out, which many people prefer for connecting a TV or receiver.

[sanlyn]

You can't really compare your experience with DVD players to what will likely be true for Blu-Ray players. The DVD spec and component video have not changed significantly since 2004, while the Blu-Ray spec, AACS licensing requirements for Blu-Ray players, and the HDMI spec are still evolving. That makes it more likely that current Blu-Ray players will become obsolete within 10 years.

They're already obsolete . They're obsolete before they hit the shelves. The corporate guys have plans for your daily life for the next 50 years, forget 10. As for DVD, as long as the spec stays as it is and doesn't get worse, it's OK with me. Did you ever hear that resolution is not the top priority in image quality? It also helps if one avoids cheap gear that can't perform so well in the first place.

In other threads you mentioned one or more of your Toshiba recorders needed repairs (a new burner?) to keep it operating. Did that statement apply to these Toshiba recorders?

One recorder had a new optical drive. It made about 1500 or so discs by then. The drive didn't die, but it was grinding now and then and wouldn't recognize DVD-RAM any more. I figured it was maintenane time ($115 including ship). Like replacing the tires on your car. I see people buying clean-used and refurbed for more than I paid new.

My $200 Panasonic DMR-ES10 from 2005 still works too, after paying $80 for a minor repair in 2006. The burner is slowly failing, but after 8 years of regular use I don't think it owes me anything. The $40 Philips DVD player I bought for my folks in 2009 is still working perfectly.

My ES10 died early. I thought it was a bit noisy anyway. Philips: Sometimes you get a budget unit that works OK and just hangs in there. My 2002/2003 players still have a damn nice image.

I'm sure all these goodies are relics, but so are most of their owners. The kids change hardware every 15 minutes, as long as the $$ holds out. The cheaper the better. It'll be gone in 6 months. The main idea is bigger and louder. And thinner. Bigger, louder, and thinner means "better". Always. No exceptions.

1.They have analog tuners, which are not useful for tuning digital cable TV or OTA TV via an antenna. The requirement for an external tuner that requires users to manually change channels is a no-go for a lot of people looking for a recording device.

2. They don't have HDMI out, which many people prefer for connecting a TV or receiver.

1. No matter. Cable outfits are encrypting everything anyway. Tuners are useless. Remember, they're in control. Not you.

2. HDMI is handy for those who can't match a green plug to a green hole. Guess what? They even get the HDMi cable wrong. A store clerk sells them an HDMI cable and throws it in the bag with the receipt. They get home and have to call the Geek Squad for instructions on how to connect it. A lady living next door called me one day and wanted to know why her BluRay wouldn't play anything. I took a look. HDMI cable not connected. Customer threw it away. Didn't know what it was for. It wouldn't fit in the wall A.C. socket, so she thought the store gave it to her by mistake. I told her she needed to get another HDMI cable. She sez, "Why? I have wireless in here, don't I?" BTW this BluRay had been sitting there unused for more than a year. Do you think I hold the likes and opinions of the average consumer in some regard?

I have old stuff, I have new stuff. In that regard I think you and I are like many people who value a good thing when they see it.

[usually_quiet]

You can't really compare your experience with DVD players to what will likely be true for Blu-Ray players. The DVD spec and component video have not changed significantly since 2004, while the Blu-Ray spec, AACS licensing requirements for Blu-Ray players, and the HDMI spec are still evolving. That makes it more likely that current Blu-Ray players will become obsolete within 10 years.

They're already obsolete . They're obsolete before they hit the shelves. The corporate guys have plans for your daily life for the next 50 years, forget 10. As for DVD, as long as the spec stays as it is and doesn't get worse, it's OK with me. Did you ever hear that resolution is not the top priority in image quality? It also helps if one avoids cheap gear that can't perform so well in the first place.

In other threads you mentioned one or more of your Toshiba recorders needed repairs (a new burner?) to keep it operating. Did that statement apply to these Toshiba recorders?

One recorder had a new optical drive. It made about 1500 or so discs by then. The drive didn't die, but it was grinding now and then and wouldn't recognize DVD-RAM any more. I figured it was maintenane time ($115 including ship). Like replacing the tires on your car. I see people buying clean-used and refurbed for more than I paid new.

My $200 Panasonic DMR-ES10 from 2005 still works too, after paying $80 for a minor repair in 2006. The burner is slowly failing, but after 8 years of regular use I don't think it owes me anything. The $40 Philips DVD player I bought for my folks in 2009 is still working perfectly.

My ES10 died early. I thought it was a bit noisy anyway. Philips: Sometimes you get a budget unit that works OK and just hangs in there. My 2002/2003 players still have a damn nice image.

I'm sure all these goodies are relics, but so are most of their owners. The kids change hardware every 15 minutes, as long as the $$ holds out. The cheaper the better. It'll be gone in 6 months. The main idea is bigger and louder. And thinner. Bigger, louder, and thinner means "better". Always. No exceptions.

1.They have analog tuners, which are not useful for tuning digital cable TV or OTA TV via an antenna. The requirement for an external tuner that requires users to manually change channels is a no-go for a lot of people looking for a recording device.

2. They don't have HDMI out, which many people prefer for connecting a TV or receiver.

1. No matter. Cable outfits are encrypting everything anyway. Tuners are useless. Corporate cable is in control. Not us.

2. HDMI is handy for those who can't match a green plug to a green hole. Guess what? They even get the HDMi cable wrong. A store clerk sells them an HDMI cable and throws it in the bag with the receipt. They get home and have to call the Geek Squad for instructions on how to connect it. A lady living next door called me one day and wanted to know why her BluRay wouldn't play anything. I took a look. HDMI cable not connected. Customer threw it away. Didn't know what it was for. It wouldn't fit in the wall A.C. socket, so she thought the store gave it to her by mistake. I told her she needed to get another HDMI cable. She sez, "Why? I have wireless in here, don't I?" BTW this BluRay had been sitting there unused for more than a year. Do you think I hold the likes and opinions of the average consumer in some regard?

I have old stuff, I have new stuff. In that regard I think you and I are like many people who value a good thing when they see it.

Nope, you and I are nothing alike. I would never pay $500 for a Blu-ray player, not even if I won the lottery. As long as the technical requirements and capabilities for the medium keep changing, they need to be thought of as a disposable item. ...nor do I hold the average consumer in contempt. Actually, since you make a living out of helping the technically ignorant, I would have expected you to express a little gratitude towards them, even if you cannot muster any sympathy.