Pioneer DVR 720H no sound Capture via DV iLink

[corrie90]

Hi

I have been having an ongoing problem trying to get Sound and Vision out of my home made family DVD's using the above device - into my Avid .. I can get pictures out no problem but NO sound comes via the firewire Port

Bear in mind I am not at all trying to capture encrypted DVD's they are my own home made DVD's with a sample rate of either 32K or 48K something that the DVR should understand.

My question is does anybody know of a flash or hardware manipulation that can make my DVR play out sound and vision via firewire (DV Port)? I really like this DVR as it is one that I can play straight out of my Avid into the DVR without having to encode timeline via QT etc.

If I have posted to the wrong section could the administrator kindly place it where I might get a bit more help.

Many thanks for reading this

My system
AMD Athlon(tm)64 X2 Dual Core 4400+ 2.31Ghz, 4G DDR2 RAM with 3.25 GB of available RAM to Windows, Motherboard GIGABYTE GA-MA69GM-S2H, Realtek HD Audio Card (Audio driver v5.10006767) WDC 250GB Drive, WD 1TB Ext Drive, NVIDIA GeForce 7600 GT, DVD TSST corp SHS2039, OS Windows XP Professional 32bit, SP3

[DB83]

Are yoy saying that you can not capture sound or just not hear it during capture ?

Try WinDV instead of avid. You will not hear the sound but it should capture it.

[aedipuss]

does the dvr export DVavi over firewire with pcm wave audio?

[corrie90]

Are yoy saying that you can not capture sound or just not hear it during capture ?

Sorry I should have been more clear - I can not capture any sound at all, i.e the imported file contains video but no audio accompanied with the vision.

I can easily rip my DVD and then import the file into my Avid, its not a problem getting software to do that so thanks for pointing me to WinDV ... its just that I really want to crack playing in real time a DVD straight into my Avid capturing S&V as I go

Firewire is supposed to be bidirectional and bearing in mind my DVD is home made it should be easy enough to get sound out of my Panasonic DVR 720H

[DB83]

aedipuss is probably on the case here.

The dvr will obviously output audio over dv but dv expects audio at a specific frequency and format. If the audio on your self-made dvds is not PCM (they will be 48 mhz) then dv does not know what to do with it. It can not convert it. It just takes it as it is.

[corrie90]

does the dvr export DVavi over firewire with pcm wave audio?

Wow now there is a question !! I am desperately trying to find an answer to your question as I do not know the answer .. I only considered the fact that digits go in/out via firewire .. I never thought about its construct

Can I be clear about your terminology ( export ) .. I am actually trying to play the DVD in real time and then capture into the Avid which will accept video but no audio .. I use the term export as one would import a file ( encoding/decoding ) .. if you mean real time playout then I do not know what the firewire construct is.

I know the DVR's digital output sends 96KHz - 48KHz Dolby Digital to PCM audio .. but I am not using the D Output .. I am as explained going via FW

Does this help at all ??

[DB83]

Take your dvd and load one of the vobs into mediainfo. That will tel you the audio spec. Post the report here.

[corrie90]

I have updated this post from last night -

Below is the info from one of the VTS 01 BUP files from one of my own generated home made DVD's, which I played straight out of the Avid and recorded into the DVR in real time .. but I can not capture audio going the other way ( into the Avid ) only Vision goes into the Avid.

General
Complete name : C:\Documents and Settings\Avid\Desktop\VTS_01_0.BUP
Format : DVD Video
Format profile : Program
File size : 16.0 KiB
Duration : 4mn 50s
Overall bit rate mode : Variable
Overall bit rate : 451 bps

Video
ID : 224 (0xE0)
Format : MPEG Video
Format version : Version 2
Duration : 4mn 50s
Bit rate mode : Variable
Width : 720 pixels
Height : 576 pixels
Display aspect ratio : 4:3
Frame rate : 25.000 fps
Standard : PAL
Compression mode : Lossy

Audio
ID : 0 (0x0)
Format : PCM
Duration : 4mn 50s
Channel(s) : 2 channels
Sampling rate : 48.0 KHz

Menu
Duration : 4mn 50s
00:00:00.000 : Chapter 1
List (Audio) : 0

[corrie90]

This VOB comes from another home made DVD given to me by a friend of mine - same issue with this as above.

General
Complete name : C:\Documents and Settings\Avid\Desktop\VTS_01_0.IFO
Format : DVD Video
Format profile : Program
File size : 26.0 KiB
Duration : 17mn 13s
Overall bit rate mode : Variable
Overall bit rate : 206 bps

Video
ID : 224 (0xE0)
Format : MPEG Video
Format version : Version 2
Duration : 17mn 13s
Bit rate mode : Variable
Width : 704 pixels
Height : 576 pixels
Display aspect ratio : 4:3
Frame rate : 25.000 fps
Standard : PAL
Compression mode : Lossy

Audio
ID : 128 (0x80)
Format : AC-3
Format/Info : Audio Coding 3
Duration : 17mn 13s
Channel(s) : 2 channels
Sampling rate : 48.0 KHz
Compression mode : Lossy

Menu
Duration : 17mn 13s
00:00:00.000 : Chapter 1
00:05:10.560 : Chapter 2
00:10:18.720 : Chapter 3
00:15:32.640 : Chapter 4
List (Audio) : 0

If it help here is the link for the DVR's Manual, there might be something in here that I have missed that could help solve this. ?

http://docs.pioneer.eu/Manuals/DVR_720H_VRB1340_manual/

[DB83]

I hardly think you will get ac-3 audio to tramsit over dv. Need to see your dvd's tho.

I'll read the manual later.

[corrie90]

Morning D883

I have updated the posts from last night - I hope that does not upset your thinking

I have both AC-3 and PCM variations now posted.

My avid audio project is :-

Sample rate = 48KHz
Audio file format = PCM (MXF)
Sample bit depth = 24 BIT
DV Audio pattern = unlocked Audio
Convert sample rates when playing = Always

I do however have 2 other encoding audio options that I must confess I have never tried and they are

WAVE (OMF)
AIFF-C (OMF)

I have always used PCM and seeing that the DVR looks for PCM I thought it best to stay put.

The settings I use might help you once you have looked at the manual.

I must say I am very impressed with the level of knowledge here, and the willingness of contributors to help.

I will await any help that I may be fortunate to get

Kind regards

[DB83]

It has not upset my thinking.

Your avid project does not matter here. It matters what is sent over the dv cable. Have to go out now. Report back later.

[DB83]

The only reference to audio out over DV I can find in the manual is on page 117 which states that the output is 16 bit.

The connection is intended for cam-corders so anything else really is a bonus. It is not the typical way to transfer dvd/hdd playback to a PC.

I now suggest that you try WinDV. If that works then atleast you can import the DV file into your avid project. It is only one extra step.

[corrie90]

I now suggest that you try WinDV. If that works then atleast you can import the DV file into your avid project. It is only one extra step.

Which I have been doing for some time now - I thought I might get lucky with a solution here, but it seems that I might have to put my efforts to bed at some point in the future.

thanks for your replies

[DB83]

For the purpose of clarity.

Are you saying that WinDV works or not ?

[corrie90]

Yes that method works

[DB83]

Now we are getting somewhere.

The fault lies with avid.

Any capture program requires you to set the source for both the video AND the audio. The video obviously works so take a closer look at the source that is listed for the audio. I suspect it points to to your sound card.

If there is no alternative setting then you would have to rig up a direct audio input from your player into the sound card but you could have sync issues then.

[corrie90]

Yes I now see why you asked that question

I could take analogue audio out of the DVR which could be a way out. but as you point out I could suffer sync slippage - I have a few spare sound cards so I will set a day aside in the next few weeks, and have a tinker with them / also trying other settings that might be on offer

WinDV was not what I thought it was until I looked at it properly so thanks for sending that to me.

[orsetto]

corrie90, as DB83 mentioned, the bi-directional PC connectivity of the DV port in the Pioneer DVR-x10 and DVR-x20 recorders was an "undocumented feature" at best. Many people have taken advantage of it as a "loophole," but it is unpredictable.

Off the top of my head, I think PuzZLeR was the most informed/experienced user of this feature posting about it on VH. You might try contacting him directly via PM. He also had a dedicated thread offering advice on this topic, which you can find here. Note the model numbers varied slightly in North America, we did not get the DVR-720 but our DVR-520 was essentially the same unit with a smaller HDD and NTSC tuner. PuzZLeR's advice would apply to all models in the first two generations of Pioneer recorder: 210, 310, 510, 5100, 220, 225, 320, 420, 520, 720, 920. The feature was disabled beginning with the DVR-x30 series, those and all later models will not recognize anything but a camcorder on their DV ports.

[DB83]

Corrie90,

You misunderstand me. You do not have to change soundcards. Check the capture property settings for avid. I can not help you specifically there as I do not have that program but all capture software will have these settings. You just need to find them.

Below is the screen I can use for one of my capture programs. You will see I have up to three audio sources to select from.

[corrie90]

DB83 .. I posted my audio capture settings earlier above @ 17th May 2013 01:53 I referred to it as my "avid project"
I have had a rummage around trying different combos -

have been out and just got back in but I then realized that you where not at all talking about the sound card and I could not get back in time to amend the post so no misunderstanding on that bit.

orsetto ... that is a very interesting post and certainly worth my while looking at in more depth I clicked here. and quickly realized its a day off job to sit down and read it properly .. I will be doing that over the weekend

[DB83]

From my eyes, those project settings refer to encoding.

Capture settings are something else.

[corrie90]

This is as good as it gets as far as Audio input goes ( it's expecting Host-1394 ) i.e firewire
you can get audio in via mojo or Liquid or even through the sound card ( MIC input ) but this is the way Avid expects to see S&V .. this being the first image, the audio end which you can also toggle to select the MIC input - the other image being S&V combined digitized DV material in my case. you can also import S&V via a P2 card its a very comprehensive bit of kit.

[DB83]

Ok. Just one other thought.

Does this capture tool invoke playback of the dvr like pressing that play button on the lower left ?

There have been several issues reported lately with WinDV and using that to invoke playback. The solution was always to invoke playback from the unit and not from the capture program.

Beyond that.........

[corrie90]

The image below I have circled the buttons that become live once a recognised deck appears, ( my Sony DSR-11) the capture tool will invoke playback in fact all functioning buttons of the capture tool - it does however recognise the DVR as a deck ( I use a generic deck template )

You can not however control the DVR from the capture tool ... what then has to happen is that you have to put the capture tool into a free running state and then control the DVR with its own remote or from it's front panel - then capture ( red record button top left capture tool manually ) and then play the DVR disc ... that's what I was hoping would work

[DB83]

I do not think that last screen has anything to do with capture. IMHO you have been quite fortunate in pursuading the program to output to this unit - something that is not exactly officially supported.

With that in mind, and given that the unit is primarilly designed for camcorders (as far as DV support goes), to fully reverse the process appears to be 'pushing the envelope'

If you do eventually get it to work with this software then do come back and let me know. But for now I think I have hit a brick-wall.

[aedipuss]

? if winDV works and you get a good DVavi file, why not go that way? just import the winDV captured avi into avid. all editors accept DVavi as source input.

[DB83]

? if winDV works and you get a good DVavi file, why not go that way? just import the winDV captured avi into avid. all editors accept DVavi as source input.

Which is what I was suggesting in post #13.

[corrie90]

I should own up to the fact that I really did not appreciate what WinDV actually did - I looked at it very late in our post exchange - and it looks like it is absolutely lossless which is a real bonus.

If I ever solve this I will certainly post it here .. you know what it's like when you see a "dog with a bone" you just keep going in the forlorn hope that you think you can fix it.

But it does though seem that in my case WinDV is the best route to take, again thanks very much for asking the question @ 17th May 2013 11:36

[DB83]

Well DV is not lossless but is less lossy than your mpeg2 (DVD) source.