hdtv and 2.35:1 vs 16:9

[noobvide]

I was just curious if someone could shed some light on what exactly is occurring when a station like HBO, or similar, presents a film in 720p 16:9 (with no black bars), even though the films original aspect ratio was something like 2.35:1 or 1.85:1.

Specifically, I noticed that on the VLC media player there is an option to crop the video to fit which ever aspect ratio I want, 16:9 or 4:3 etc.

Now, I realize that when I crop a 2.35:1 to 16:9 I am losing a little bit off the edges of the film and something similar if I were to shove a 4:3 cropped to 16:9.

My question, if someone could answer like this is: Is using vlc's cropping 2.35:1 to 16:9 accurate (does it really maintain aspect ratio when I forcibly jam a non-16:9 film into 16:9?) Is this exactly the same thing that HBO will do? (i.e. a film cropped from 2.35 to 16 9 in vlc is identical to HBO's showing of 16:9 of the same film?)
Also if I crop a 1280 by 544 to fit into a 16:9 aspect ratio in VLC will I lose any quality?

Thank you to anyone who takes the time to answer.

[jagabo]

Is using vlc's cropping 2.35:1 to 16:9 accurate (does it really maintain aspect ratio when I forcibly jam a non-16:9 film into 16:9?)

Yes.

Is this exactly the same thing that HBO will do?

I don't know what HBO does. But you can't make a 2.35:1 movie fit a 1.78 screen without cropping or distorting the image.

Also if I crop a 1280 by 544 to fit into a 16:9 aspect ratio in VLC will I lose any quality?

In the sense that the remaining picture will be enlarged even more and hence be even blurrier, yes.

[jman98]

noobvide - You need to understand that most people in the USA and probably elsewhere do not understand anything at all about video, nor do they care to. Most people just set up their HDTVs to display EVERYTHING in 16:9, so standard definition video gets stretched. Many people don't notice or care. Broadcasters have picked up on this. Many broadcasters are now cropping SD movies and TV shows so they fully fill a 16:9 screen because consumers like it. In the past TBS just stretched everything and it looked like crap. Now they do a correct crop of shows like Friends and Seinfeld to 16:9, but part of the image is lost in the crop. TCM (Turner Classic Movies) has now started cropping SOME standard definition films. Not all though. I have no idea how they decide what to crop. It is possible that HBO actually thinks they are doing the viewers a favor by doing this. Unfortunately SOME people just lose their minds over black bars. I mean completely go off their rocker about it. I would guess that the morons who hate black bars outnumber the people who want to see the original aspect ratio so HBO gets less complaints by doing this. Also, they may be doing it deliberately at the request of the company who owns it as that company may want a "crippled" version (for lack of a better term) on broadcast so as to encourage the hardcore film buffs to buy it on DVD/BluRay.

[manono]

Is this exactly the same thing that HBO will do? (i.e. a film cropped from 2.35 to 16 9 in vlc is identical to HBO's showing of 16:9 of the same film?)

No, HBO pans-and-scans. VLC just crops. Both are dumb ideas in that they destroy the OAR.

[yoda313]

TCM (Turner Classic Movies) has now started cropping SOME standard definition films. Not all though.

I thought TCM promoted their use of oar? Are they actually joining the crop nuts?

Also, they may be doing it deliberately at the request of the company who owns it as that company may want a "crippled" version (for lack of a better term) on broadcast so as to encourage the hardcore film buffs to buy it on DVD/BluRay.

I would not be surprised.

I personally would take an oar dvd versus a cropped hd broadcast any day of the week. An upscaled dvd looks way better than a cropped hd broadcast every single time. And I'm watching on a 32" tv! (edit - correction this is assuming its a 16x9 enhanced dvd meant to displayed on a widescreen tv - with the black bars not cropped - meaning its NOT a letterboxed movie but will play properly on a hdtv with out distortion nor a postage stamp effect)

I will say the watching the crops in hd is better than watching a pan and scan 4:3 in hd (the resolution being hd but the image being cut in 4:3 via pan and scan is what I'm getting at there).

The only thing about your issue at the end jman98 is that I contend film buffs will buy the retail disc version anyway versus some kind of captured version off cable. Either they don't know how to do it or don't want to learn and will do the disc purchase.

Actually I can capture via the hauppauge hd pvr but really don't since I record most of my stuff and I'd have to replay it and dub in the replay. The main thing that stops me from capping more is the onscreen popup my comcast dvr puts up when a recording starts or finishes. I have to delete recordings that were planned during my playback session to ensure I don't record the popup junk. So its a real hassle.

Plus I generally WANT to own the retail disc of a movie I want anyway. Unless its a "throwaway" movie that I'd watch a few times but don't care for top notch quality nor bonus stuff.

dumb ideas in that they destroy the OAR.

Yes anything that touches the OAR is a bad idea to me.

[sanlyn]

The only thing about your issue at the end jman98 is that I contend film buffs will buy the retail disc version anyway versus some kind of captured version off cable.

A great many films broadcast by TCM are not on DVD, not on tape, never were, never will be.

Many who watch TCM are fond of the old flicks but fall into the category of morons who'll watch anything that appears on a tv screen, mindless as to whether it's stretched, upside down, inside out, or playing backwards. If they never figured out how to work a VCR, they certainly won't figure out a DVR or DVD recorder. And I can name a neighbor who bought a DVD player 5 years ago but has never watched a DVD movie in her house: still hasn't figured out that the player won't work in her HDTV on Channel 3.

A devoted film like buff like me or my wife will record even the crappiest piece of old film-to-TV transfer that shows on TCM (and there's plenty of it) if we want it, because there's no other way to get many of those old movies. But, yes, as inferred earlier, it's a trend. No one in the good ol' USA even records classical music here. The buying public has been trained by three generations of MBA's to view anything beyond "pop" or "rock" (and now, mindless cursing in chant referred to as "music") as subversive or just weird. All our old recording labels have gone broke or moved to Europe, and half the programming on PBS is British or Canadian. Yeah, I know: we're the richest and most powerful country on the face of the earth. So was Rome.

End of rant. Wonder what touched that off?

[intracube]

Don't know about HBO, but they could be doing their own formatting (for example cropping the sides off a 2.39:1 film to get 16:9). Or they might be requesting a 16:9 transfer of the film from the distributor/film studio.

If it's the latter, depending how the film was shot/cameras used, the frame might be opened up vertically rather than just cropping off the sides:
https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/342633-Can-I-remove-black-bars-%28top-and-bottom%29...=1#post2135115
https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/339897-Why-doesn-t-the-US-mind-releasing-Fullscreen-versions-of-Widescreen-films-!?p=2113996&viewfull=1#post2113996

Obviously this isn't possible if you've only got a 2.39:1 copy as a starting point.

Only way to know what HBO are doing is to do a frame comparison of what they're showing vs an OAR DVD/Bluray

[jman98]

TCM (Turner Classic Movies) has now started cropping SOME standard definition films. Not all though.

I thought TCM promoted their use of oar? Are they actually joining the crop nuts?

Roughly a couple of months ago I recorded "Abbott And Costello Meet Frankenstein" and they cropped it to 16:9. Right before it started they ran one of those blurbs on the screen that said something like "This film has modified from its original format to fit your screen". Since the film was made in the 1940s I know it was shot in 4:3. IMDB confirms this. I don't record or watch enough TCM to know how common this is.

[sanlyn]

I saw it on my HDTV as 4:3 (with side pillars) thru my HD cable box. I had an old VHS home-made recording of it that I wanted to replace with the digital broadcast, so at the same time I recorded it again on my Toshiba RD-XS34 thru my second SD cable box. The Toshiba is an SD recorder. The movie played as 4:3 on all my tv's.

I don't see how that movie could be cropped to fill a 16:9 screen without cutting off heads. I'd hate to see pretty Jane Randolph with no forehead.