VCD versus SVCD

[kazzer]

Hi,

I am looking to archive VHS to CD and I dont know whether to use VCD or SVCD. Obviously I must consider this when buying a capture card.

Is SVCD really worth the extra hassle, and is it really that much better?


Cheers in advance!!

[mute]

The first thing to take into account is of course the quality of your source video, if it is just plain VHS copied from camcorder, well, then SVCD will give you little of its full potential.

Anyhow, if you already have the budget and can consider equipment to capture SVCD qual, I'd recomend you to go for that anyway (even if you will use it for VCD initially), once you get hooked, you'll want to upgrade anyway. I have myself come to the point where I have to 'upgrade' my analogue USB capturing device to something better, thus spending more money.

If you are capturing from DV/Digi8, well, then the newbie question would be what editing software that is in the bundle. Shop around and dowload demos, it's _very_ personal what editing/authoring software we all prefer.

For DV capture, I personally use a plain vanilla FireWire card and for analogue Pinnacle StudioOnLine wich produces quite low-qual captures, but has worked for my AV needs. (I also tried a Belkin USB AV-capture device, but that was actually worse than my good ol StudioOnLine, as dissapiontment really, but I got a full refund, so I'll wait another month or so and buy me a 'real' AV-capture card')

HTH

[kazzer]

Thanks for the info Mute....

Thats exactly what my source is; 8mm film transferred onto VHS, so its not great. But I'm still worried about potential 'blockiness' if I were to use VCD format.

You mention you have used a Belkin USB device. Was that the Videobus 2? Any use? I don't know whether to go for a USB device or a PCI card. I might also wait and see if any decent USB 2.0 devices emerge.


Thanks again!

[mute]

Thanks for the info Mute....

Thats exactly what my source is; 8mm film transferred onto VHS, so its not great. But I'm still worried about potential 'blockiness' if I were to use VCD format.

For that kind of source, VCD would probably suffice as target.

You mention you have used a Belkin USB device. Was that the Videobus 2? Any use? I don't know whether to go for a USB device or a PCI card. I might also wait and see if any decent USB 2.0 devices emerge.

Yes, I got a lot of dropped frames with this, and none with Studio OnLine, and as far as I could see (from watching single frames) the qual wasn't improved. I have also put my hope to USB 2.0 (Adaptec actually have a USB 2.0/FireWire combo card that would be gr8).

Thanks again!

Just glad to be able to help (or at least give some advice)! Good luck!

[mute]

Oh, BTW, I forgot to mention about the Belkin Videobus 2, that I did't have the opportunity to test the SVHS capture.
If you have the option try it, and if it doesn't live up to what you expect take it back for refund, I checked that _before_ I bought it.

HTH

[Anonymous65]

This is a topics that people feel strongly about.
However, setting feelings aside, I have done extensive testing of 352x240 mpeg-1 and 352x480 (480x480) mpeg-2 video. As far as detail and sharpness is concerned, there is only a 30% increase in vertical detail between 352x240 and 352x480 video. In other words, there is very little difference between 352x240 and 352x480 video when displayed on a TV. Since a regular VHS video tape no more than about 330 horizontal pixel resolution, going to 480 (SVCD) will not yield any better horizontal resolution over 352 pixel captures. So, the bottom line is that a SVCD and VCD copy of a VHS tape will look very much the same, except for a slight difference in vertical resolution.

Now, when it comes to VCD quality, the difference is huge between one VCD to another. All VCD's should be made by capturing BOTH fields of video, not just one field like most TV capture cards do. If you don't capture both fields, the VCD will look quite bad.

[setagames]

SETA SAYS:
if your dvd player can do svcd then make svcd
if it cant and the origional avi(or whatever u use) is a fairly small file then + you dont mind useing a few more cds then u can make a vcd and a backup in avi for later svcd

or you could just make a vcd
basiclly if urs can make svcd go for the higher quality

[kazzer]

Thanks for your replies...

Skittelsen metioned that it is important to capture both fields of video.
How can I tell if a capture card can do this? I haven't seen this mentioned on any cards I have looked at so far (PCTV pro, DC10 plus)

Thanks.

[SatStorm]

VCD vs SVCD from VHS Source...

After many tests, I have to say that VCD is not as good as a good VHS tape, and SVCD is much better a good SVHS tape. A pro SVCD looks better a typical Laser Disc also.
If you want TRUE VHS quality on CD, you have to go between VCD and SVCD. That is xSVCD. A SVCD with VCD resolution and bitrate and interlace output. That can create quality like LP SVHS (almost). But, xSVCD is -x-, not all DVD standalones support that media. The new ones do, older ones no. The cheaper the better also (believe it or not!)

For Capturing issues, capturing to 352 X 288 ain't a good idea. Capturing 352 X 576 or (if your card don't support that resolution) 704 X 576, you capture both field seperate, and that is usefull later for encoding
There, if you want to make VCD, you have to de-interlace. De-interlace means cut a field, but when a field is missing (very common with vhs), then the other one stand for it. That is the reason VCD from a de-interlace D1 or D2 source looks better.
If you go for xSVCD with 352 X 288 resolution, then with the new tmpgenc versions is better to let TMPG to decide de-interlacing. With the compination of the sharpness filter, the results looks amazing!

So, I suggest you to try if your standalone support xSVCD and if it does, work with it. Don't afraid for compatibility uses, all the new models are much more flexible on that matter. Even sony's new DVD standalones became flexible! (imagine that....)
Otherwise, VCD is the only solution for you.
Don't go for SVCD from VHS source. It's a waste of time/file size...

Whatever you go for, capturing is another issue and on both cases, it is much better to do it on d2 (352 x 576) or (if not support it) d1 (704 X 576) resolution

[digvid]

I have lots and lots of old 8mm film footage transferred to VHS and DV. I've pulled it all into the computer and created VCD and SVCD discs from it. Just by eye-balling it, I say that SVCD beats VCD by a mile every time. Despite what some say, VCD, even at its absolute best, doesn't come close to VHS quality. And SVCD is far better than SVHS. Take my word for it: VCD will introduce additional blockiness that you don't want to your footage. SVCD will at least preserve whatever quality it currently has. That's just my opinion.

- digvid

[kazzer]

Thanks to everyone who replied.

I really appreciate your opinions, because I'm new to video production.

Cheers!

[MOVIEGEEK]

SVCD isn't worth the hassle(35min. per cd,limited player compatability),
either make a copy on VHS or wait a year until the prices of DVD burners
come down to earth.I make great looking VCD's using TMPGEncoder that
are near DVD quality.

[quickfamily]

Hi,

I have to agree with digvid on this one. I captured a short sequence of 8mm VHS movie to my computer. I then used TMPGenc to encode the same captured file to a VCD compliant file and a SVCD compliant file. I then burned them both and played them on my DVD player. For me the quality of the VCD was not good enough but the SVCD was fine. The problem with the VCD was blockiness. I was using a video clip of my son water skiing which is probably the most difficult type of picture for the encoding process. The problem is the large area of water, all at approximately the same color and all moving. With VCD the water was made of little blocks, with SVCD it was OK.

I guess the other thing you have to think about is what you are using the capture process for. In my case it is to preserve old family video tape. Now I do not believe that anyone can sit for more than 20 minutes watching a family video so the SVCD time limit is no problem. On the other hand if you are recording films then the greater playing time of VCD will outweigh the quality difference.

Finally, I have to agree with moviegeek that true DVD is the ideal way to go but have you seen the cost of a blank DVD-R? It is cheaper to buy the original DVD from Best Buy.

Andy

[SatStorm]

Well...
There are 2 kind of people in this universe: Those who wants the 100% of everything and those who simply want to do there job done as quick as possible.
I want both
Also, creating the best possible vcd/svcd gonna help you in the future. You will be able to fit (let say...) 8 episodes of Babylon 5 per DVD-R disc with your mainstream PC, while your best friend with his $$$$ equipment gonna fit only 2 episodes in the same quality per DVD - R ....
Knowledge never wasted!

[SingSing]

Also, creating the best possible vcd/svcd gonna help you in the future. You will be able to fit (let say...) 8 episodes of Babylon 5 per DVD-R disc with your mainstream PC

What is the prefered format for DVD-R for movie ?

[SatStorm]

From DVD source, CIRR601 is the best solution (720 X 576). The D2 resolution (352 X 576) reduce the picture quality,even if ain't really noticable to standard TV sets/ Videoprojectors.

From a VHS/SVHS source, I belive D2 is the best solution. You don't get something going D1 or CIRR601...
The bitrate is about 220/2500/3500 with D2 for TOP quality. You can set it lower (let say 220/1900/3500) but there gonna be a few blocks on some scenes. Ain't worth it for DVD, but it worth for SVCD/CVD....

[EricB]

Well I'll throw my comments in; I think a lot of beginners try VCD and use a standard template with 1150 bit rate. If you unlock the template, and try a higher rate, I don't really see much of a blocking problem at all.

My experience has led me to encode ripped DVDs to VCD because I always get smoother motion and greater compatibility with other players.

For DV video, I encode to SVCD which helps to deal with the interleaving of the source. When I convert VHS, I always use the DV camcorder, so my VHS files are usually SVCD. I can A/B these with the source and have a hard time telling the difference.