Need help comverting 60p to 25 fps

[sterankin]

I am editing two different sources of HD footage of my wedding. The main camera is a Pansonic TM300 and shoots in PAL 1080i (MTS files). The other camcorder was a Sanyo Xacti (not sure of model but it was bought in the USA) - and seems to shoot in 60p (59.941 fps in MP4 files).

I am editing in premiere pro - how can I edit these two different sources together? My project is 1080i 50 I think.

I guess I need to convert the 60p to PAL somehow. I have tried looking to instructions on how to do this with AVIsynth but without much luck as I dont really understand the process.

Any help and advice would be appreciated. If you could get me an avs script and how to use it for example.

Thanks

edit - I'm not sure if the Sanyo footage is 60i or 60p?? Is there an easy way to tell? This is what GSPOT had to say:

https://forum.videohelp.com/attachments/2912-1280699329/gspot.jpg

[jagabo]

Unfortunately, whatever you do will be a little jerky. Here's one way:

(open 59.94p source)
ChangeFPS(100)
SeparateFields()
SelectEvery(8,0,5)
Weave()

That will give you sharp (as sharp as the source) 25i video that's a little jerky. If you prefer a slightly smoother look (at the cost of blurry or double exposure frames):

(open 59.94p source)
ConvertFPS(100)
SeparateFields()
SelectEvery(8,0,5)
Weave()

[sterankin]

Thanks for this - how do I use the script to convert the source i.e. hwta program should I open the script with? Also will the footage still be interlaced (assuming it is already)?

Thanks!

[jagabo]

You can open the AviSynth script in any program that can handle it. If Premiere Pro can't open the AviSynth script you'll have to convert (with some other program) to a format that it can handle (HDV maybe?). GSpot shows Xacti video to be 1080p60 (I know it can shoot that format, I have a few samples). The output of the AviSynth script will be 1080i25 (often called 1080i50 these days). I'm assuming that's what your other camcorder puts out.

[sterankin]

Thats great - would virtuadub be a good program to use and will this create a copy of the video file or simply overwrite the original MP4 with the new framerate?

[jagabo]

VirtualDub is a good choice if you want AVI output. It will create a new file, leaving your original intact.

[sterankin]

OK I think I get it now. So basically load the AVS file into Virtuadub so it can open the MP4. Then choose "save as.." and Virtuadub will save it as 25 fps.

Heres the next question - how can I save it so I dont lose any quality? Can I choose direct stream? Guess not if I am forced to convert to AVI? Would tmpeng be a better choice.

Is there a way to get the file without any loss in quality or size etc?

[jagabo]

When you mentioned AviSynth in your first post I assumed you had some familiarity with it. The output from AviSynth will be uncompressed video. You can save it uncompressed from VirtualDub but the resulting file will be very large - about 78 MB/sec, 4.7 GB/min, for YV12 video. You'll probably want to select some kind of compression. Lossless codecs will preserve all the quality but will not give much compression -- about 1/3 to 1/4 the uncompressed size. Lossy codecs will give you better compression but some loss of quality. I'm not sure what Premiere Pro will be happy with. Maybe MJPEG?

[edDV]

...
Heres the next question - how can I save it so I dont lose any quality? Can I choose direct stream? Guess not if I am forced to convert to AVI? Would tmpeng be a better choice.

Is there a way to get the file without any loss in quality or size etc?

Keep the original Xacti file as your archive backup. In the future there will be better hardware and software to do the conversion. Anything you do today will affect the quality (jerky playback or blurred).

Also save your unedited conversions in case you want to re-edit in the near term.

[sterankin]

Can someone give me the options for what lossless codec to use in Virtualdub, should I choose full processing mode etc.
Is there a way to do a lot of these MP4s at once, like a batch job. So I dont have to create an individual avs for each one.

[jagabo]

HuffYUV, Lagarith, MSU Lossless. HuffYUV is fastest but gives the least compression, Lagarith gives more compression but is slower. MSU is slowest and gives a tiny bit more compression than Lagarith.

[edDV]

Those "lossless" files will get huge for 1920x1080i/25 and be non-responsive for editing. I'd recommend you fix the Xacti framerate in Virtualdub, then convert all source to Cineform Neoscene for editing in Premiere Pro. Try the free demo first.

[poisondeathray]

Is there a way to do a lot of these MP4s at once, like a batch job. So I dont have to create an individual avs for each one.

There are avisynth batch scripters if you search , I think a few are listed on this site . eg
https://www.videohelp.com/tools/AviSynth_Batch_Scripter

@edDV - I think he's using proxy editing , but cineform is a definitely good alternative for editing in full resolution

[sterankin]

I would have used Neoscene but even the demo doesnt work on my PC and the tech support couldnt help.

Anyway this is what I am planning to do:

1. Convert the MP4 60 FPS files to 25 FPS AVIS with some lossless codec using avisynth and virtualdub.
2. Downgrade the new 25 fps files for use as proxy files (something like dvavi)
3. edit all the proxy files
4. swap back in the 25 fps HD files

[jagabo]

You can use the same scripts to make your DV proxies. Just resize to 720x576 first.

[sterankin]

Hmm a 300MB MP4 file is coming out at 11gb using Virtualdub, huffy codec and the avs script. I have about 15 of these files so I wont have enough HDD space.

Any other codec options? No way to keep it as is but wth different fps?

Why does gspot say there is 5GB of uneeded bytes at the end of the file?





EDIT: tried to encode this new 25fps AVI into a DV mpeg for proxy editing using Adobe media encoder. Its not converting it - just sort of freezes and doesnt do anything.

[edDV]

See this thread for an explanation of codec tradeoffs.
https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/324037-computer-power-ghz?p=2006711

You can export DV format from Virtualdub using the Cedocida DV codec.
https://www.videohelp.com/tools/Cedocida_DV_Codec

[poisondeathray]

EDIT: tried to encode this new 25fps AVI into a DV mpeg for proxy editing using Adobe media encoder. Its not converting it - just sort of freezes and doesnt do anything.

what version of premiere? what os? 64-bit or 32-bit ?

do you have avs import plugin installed ? You can use .avs files directly in premiere if CS4 or earlier (you need beta version for CS5, but it's buggy)
http://videoeditorskit.sourceforge.net/
http://sourceforge.net/projects/videoeditorskit/

I have no idea why it says 5.32 GB unneeded. Never seen that message before

[sterankin]

Its premiere CS4.

The file size is too big regardless with Virtualdub. I tried it with super - I trie creating an MP4 files using the avs script and it seemd to work except the resulting video is sped up, its running too fast.

When you say import the avs into premiere - do you mean into the media encoder?

[poisondeathray]

You can use .avs directly in premiere (no intermediate files - well the .avs is an intermediate file, but only a few kb big) , but that won't help you if your goal is proxy editing - it will still be sluggish (the .avs is essentially a proxy and you are frame serving the original video with processing). Or you can use .avs in AME if vdub and DV isn't working for you

If you don't have enough HDD space, you will need to use a lossy intermediate for your "master" when you swap. You could use a high bitrate MPEG2 encode, for example. (e.g feed that .avs into HCEnc)

But it sounds like you are having problems making the proxy as well ? You could make an .avs for your low res proxy as well, just alter the script - add LanczosResize(720,576) right after the source filter.

I suspect when you created your mp4 files with super, it's a playback problem (interlaced content in mp4 container is problematic in many players)

As for proxy choice, DV-AVI should work, or I-frame MPEG2 would even work

[edDV]

Why the constrained disk space? Is this a laptop?

For proxy editing, DV format editing over USB2 to an external drive should work. Just don't capture from the camcorder to the external drive that way.

What is your CPU spec and OS version? 32 or 64 bit?

[sterankin]

32 bit O/S - Vista.

I tried using HCgui to encode the MP4 using an avs file to create a high quality mpeg2 file. The file coverted ok but was very bad quality (I prob had the settings wrong) - but the file still plays too fast, like its double speed nearly?

This was the avs file:

DirectShowSource("F:\Video Editing\SANY0649.MP4")
ConvertFPS(100)
SeparateFields()
SelectEvery(8,0,5)
Weave()

Whats goinghere - I'm running out of options.

I loaded the avs into AME and it crashed after a couple of mins - it did this every time I tried to use it, I even tried creatin different outputs like mpeg2, mp4 etc etc and it still crashed.

[poisondeathray]

What bitrate did you use for HCEnc ? For HD high quality you will need >40Mbps . I would use 100Mbps

Try a different source filter, DirectShowSource is unreliable and not necessarily frame accurate, might be causing your crashes

Download zip file from this site , unzip and put the ffms2.dll and ffms2.avsi into avisynth plugins folder
http://code.google.com/p/ffmpegsource/

Replace 1st line with FFMpegSource2("F:\Video Editing\SANY0649.MP4", atrack=-1)

Do you have all updates for AME / PP ?

I have CS4 installed on one of my computers, and I can load these Sanyo 1080p60 files directly in PP or AME or AE and they are properly interpreted as 59.94fps (you reported it as 15fps in the other thread?) - I suspect something is screwy with your install and/or your system

If AME isn't working for you , you can encode to your proxy with vdub and cedocida as suggested above. You could also use ffmpeg to encode to a new "master" or "proxy" (with different scripts of course)

or maybe you've misidentified the files or there is an error with them ? what does mediainfo say about them (view=>text, and copy & paste the info back here)

[sterankin]

I just want to say that I really appreciate the help on this. Media info of the original MP4 file:

General
Complete name : F:\Video Editing\SANY0649.MP4
Format : MPEG-4
Format profile : Base Media / Version 2
Codec ID : mp42
File size : 300 MiB
Duration : 3mn 27s
Overall bit rate : 12.1 Mbps
Movie name/More : SANYO DIGITAL CAMERA HD1000
Encoded date : UTC 2010-07-02 13:53:00
Tagged date : UTC 2010-07-02 13:53:00
Origin : Digital Camera
Video
ID : 1
Format : AVC
Format/Info : Advanced Video Codec
Format profile : Main@L4.0
Format settings, CABAC : No
Format settings, ReFrames : 2 frames
Codec ID : avc1
Codec ID/Info : Advanced Video Coding
Duration : 3mn 27s
Bit rate mode : Variable
Bit rate : 12.0 Mbps
Width : 1 920 pixels
Height : 1 080 pixels
Display aspect ratio : 16:9
Frame rate mode : Constant
Frame rate : 59.940 fps
Color space : YUV
Chroma subsampling : 4:2:0
Bit depth : 8 bits
Scan type : Progressive
Bits/(Pixel*Frame) : 0.097
Stream size : 297 MiB (99%)
Language : English
Encoded date : UTC 2010-07-02 13:53:00
Tagged date : UTC 2010-07-02 13:53:00
Audio
ID : 2
Format : AAC
Format/Info : Advanced Audio Codec
Format version : Version 4
Format profile : LC
Format settings, SBR : No
Codec ID : 40
Duration : 3mn 27s
Bit rate mode : Variable
Bit rate : 128 Kbps
Maximum bit rate : 192 Kbps
Channel(s) : 2 channels
Channel positions : Front: L R
Sampling rate : 48.0 KHz
Stream size : 3.15 MiB (1%)
Language : English
Encoded date : UTC 2010-07-02 13:53:00
Tagged date : UTC 2010-07-02 13:53:00



Also - I installed the ffmpegsource2 files and used the line: FFMpegSource2("F:\Video Editing\SANY0649.MP4", atrack=-1) - I added the AVS file to AME, and exported as MPEG2 m2v file (HD 25) AND it didnt crash this time! But the file wasnt perfect, as a bit pixallated in places and a bit jerky (not really useable) - but progress none the less.

[poisondeathray]

what export settings did you use?

MPEG2 compression is quite poor so you might need a lot higher bitrate if this is going to be your "master". If you fed that avs script for the new "master" it should be 1080i50 preset that you are using . AME might be limited in the maximum bitrate , but I think HCenc can go to 99Mb/s

When you view that .avs in vdub directly, are there any pixellation in places ? If there is, the problem is with the source, or decoding of it, not encoding

If AME is working for you , you could use it to make your DV-AVI proxies as well (with different avs script)

and if you get the .avs import working in PP properly, you don't even have to make a new "master", that 1kb .avs file can be the new master

[sterankin]

Yeah - basically I'm still trying to create a new Master - which is as close to the original file as possible, only with the frame rate changed. Interesting that media info sees the MP4 as progressive - does this affect things?

In AME - the settings were:
Preset: HDTV 1080i 25 High Quality
VBR 1 pass, Min 4.00, Target 15.00, Max 18.5 [Mbps]

What should I export as?

[poisondeathray]

Yes the mp4 is supposed to be progressive. Both mediainfo and gspot concur. The metadata says Sanyo HD1000 which shoots 1080p60

It's the avs script that is changing it to 1080i50 (or sometimes called 1080i25)

I would max out the sliders to the maximum or even use HCenc. 15Mb/s average for MPEG2 is going to look blocky (bad quality)

If you could get the .avs import into premiere working (it should work), you wouldn't have to waste any time encoding or HDD space with the new "master" , and the quality would be better. You would only have to make small proxies

[jagabo]

manono mentioned another frame rate conversion filter that you might try:

https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/315557-Any-way-to-convert-25-to-30-fps-%28-cos-YouT...=1#post2006781

The main difference between that filter and ConvertFPS() is that ConvertFPS() will produce 5 blended frames (which will be fields in my earlier script) out of every 6 frames, but BlendFPS() only produces one blended frame in every 6. It may look jerkier during playback though.

[Alex_ander]

MVTools2 framerate interpolation might work not well with some type of material (try it on yours), but it's never jerky:

#if 60p source
LoadPlugin("path\mvtools2.dll")
super = MSuper(pel=2)
backward_vec = MAnalyse(super, isb = true)
forward_vec = MAnalyse(super, isb = false)
MFlowFps(super, backward_vec, forward_vec, num=50, den=1, ml=100)
AssumeBFF()
DoubleWeave().SelectEvery(4,1)#50i TFF

[manono]

manono mentioned another frame rate conversion filter that you might try:

I mentioned it in that thread because he wanted to go to a final framerate greater than the source framerate and it works well for that - little jerkiness, little blending. Here he's going from one framerate to a lower framerate. I haven't tried it for that (and also agree, that if it works at all the result would be jerky), but think I'd use the very first script you posted, although there's no real good solution, as you know, except sometimes using Alex_ander's method.