Lines on my rendered videos?

[Tahlos]

When I render out my videos, whenever the displays moves fast (in the video, as in the camera turning around 180 degrees for example), you can clearly see lines on the video, making the video look unclear. How do I fix this?

[rumplestiltskin]

It's probably the interlacing (although that's just a guess). Others here have definite opinions about how the deinterlacing should be done (and you will hear from them after I post this), but if there's a "deinterlace" switch in your software, use it and then check the results. Let us know what happens.

[olyteddy]

PS, If your output format is a DVD to view on a TV, don't de-interlace, the TV will.

[Tahlos]

Thanks! does sony vegas pro 9 have a deinterlace function?

[jagabo]

Thanks! does sony vegas pro 9 have a deinterlace function?

Yes, a poor one.

[Tahlos]

where can I get a good deinterlace program or what pprogram has a decent deinterlace function?

[rumplestiltskin]

Here is where the flood of opinions will begin.

I'll recommend MPEG Streamclip but others will recommend JES Deinterlacer or other products. Frankly, I haven't seen a hill of beans worth of difference so I just use the easiest (and most stable) app. Maybe I'm not being critical enough.

[lordsmurf]

Do not deinterlace if making DVDs or Blu-ray discs.

[jagabo]

Yes, only deinterlace when necessary. Like when uploading videos to YouTube. One of the best deinterlacers right now is AviSynth's TempGaussMC:

http://avisynth.org/mediawiki/TempGaussMC

[Tahlos]

I am going to be uploading to youtube. Thanks to everyone so far I will tell you how it goes.

[Tahlos]

Should I render in vegas and then bring that to MPEG streamclip or bring the whole file to MPEG streamclip?

[Tahlos]

I seem to be having problems with MPEG streamclip. There is no way to render the video uncompressed. is this possible?

[jagabo]

I had a chance to play with MPEG StreamClip. I was able to export as uncompressed AVI with the "export as other" option. That gave a clip that other programs could read. The usual "export as AVI" only had apple uncompressed fourcc's that other programs couldn't read.

The program's deinterlacing is mediocre. But it might work ok with not-so-sharp camcorder video. It didn't leave any comb artifacts ("lines") but it did leave lots of jagged edges.

[rumplestiltskin]

MPEG Streamclip is designed for use with QuickTime. No one really uses uncompressed video any more; more likely, AIC or ProRes are good choices (for, let's say, Final Cut or Premier).

I'm a little confused, however. Your original post implied you were finished with the editing and were in the "render to delivery format" phase. If so, why are you attempting to do "uncompressed" video through MPEG Streamclip when you already have it as uncompressed as possible with whatever you used to do the editing?

[Tahlos]

I was going to go ahead and render out everything uncompressed and then use Vdub to compress it. I guess I will just not use MPEG streamclip, as it seems to not be as good as I once thought. I am currently trying to render out video from my Hauppauge HD PVR (which is recording in 1080i). I am rendering from vegas (where i cut the clips from the hour or 2 hour videos) and then to whatever program I will ultimately use to deinterlace.

[jagabo]

Here are some examples of a panning shot, a 720p60 source, interlace to 720i30, then deinterlaced with various algorithms.

A 720p60 source, interlaced to 720i30:


Simple bob deinterlace (I think this is what Vegas does), MPEG StreamClip:


AviSynth Yadif (VirtualDub's is similar), AviSynth TempGaussMC_Beta1mod:


Most videos don't have those very thin, nearly horizontal lines where most deinterlacers screw up. So consider these something like worst case examples.

[rumplestiltskin]

jagabo,

Are you interlacing from 720p to 720i and then deinterlacing?

[jagabo]

Are you interlacing from 720p to 720i and then deinterlacing?

Yes. One wouldn't normally do this. But for demonstration purposes, that gave me a progressive source with which to compare the results of the deinterlacing algorithms. Ie, a perfect deinterlacer would restore the video back to the original progressive frames.

These were from my attempts to reproduce that Stockholm video that's often referred to:
https://forum.videohelp.com/images/guides/p1934885/stockholma_0-520_q3_yadif_mvbobmod_t...mca4_tdtmm.avi

The original 702p60 video can be found here:
http://media.xiph.org/ldv/pub/test_sequences/
In particular:
http://media.xiph.org/ldv/pub/test_sequences/720p/720p5994_stockholm_ter.yuv

It was interlaced with AviSynth:

SeparateFields()
SelectEvery(4,0,3)
Weave()
ConvertToYV12(interlaced=true)

[Tahlos]

Vdub 1.9.9 (downloaded from sourceforge) contains Yadif, correct?

[jagabo]

Vdub 1.9.9 (downloaded from sourceforge) contains Yadif, correct?

Yes. Keep in mind that VirtualDub doesn't handle the chroma channels of interlaced YV12 (MPEG) sources properly. With real world video the problems can be subtle. With cartoons they are often very obvious. You can get around this by using AviSynth to convert to YUY2 before giving the video to VirtualDub.

WhateverSource("source.ext")
ConvertToYUY2(interlaced=true)

[rumplestiltskin]

"Yes. One wouldn't normally do this. But for demonstration purposes, that gave me a progressive source with which to compare the results of the deinterlacing algorithms. Ie, a perfect deinterlacer would restore the video back to the original progressive frames."

But with 60fps source being interlaced to 30fps and then being deinterlaced, aren't you then ending up with 30fps material and not the original?

[poisondeathray]

But with 60fps source being interlaced to 30fps and then being deinterlaced, aren't you then ending up with 30fps material and not the original?

No, he's converting 60p to 60i (60i and 30i are the same thing, just different nomenclature. The both mean 30 FRAMES or 60 FIELDS per second)

When he's deinterlacing 60i, you can double rate deinterlace (aka. bob-deinterlace) to 60p , so you keep the temporal resolution. Some programs do not allow you to bob deinterlace (they only single rate deinterlace), and drop 1/2 the temporal information (1/2 the fields) - this would result in 30p instead of 60p

[rumplestiltskin]

But with 60fps source being interlaced to 30fps and then being deinterlaced, aren't you then ending up with 30fps material and not the original?

No, he's converting 60p to 60i (60i and 30i are the same thing, just different nomenclature. The both mean 30 frames or 60 fields per second)

When he's deinterlacing 60i, you can double rate deinterlace (aka. bob-deinterlace) to 60p , so you keep the temporal resolution. Some programs do not allow you to bob deinterlace (they only single rate deinterlace), and drop 1/2 the temporal information (1/2 the fields)

What about material that's shot in 30fps interlaced? Without the initial 60p as source, you'll never get anything better than the source. I've tried JES and nothing it did proved to be any better (often worse) than MPEG Streamclip. I'll stress I was working with interlaced material.

[jagabo]

What about material that's shot in 30fps interlaced? Without the initial 60p as source, you'll never get anything better than the source.

Of course. But sometimes you need to deinterlace. Like when posting to YouTube.

Poisondeathray was right about using the deinterlacers in double frame rate mode. I was using that to create 60p from 30i.

[poisondeathray]

What about material that's shot in 30fps interlaced? Without the initial 60p as source, you'll never get anything better than the source. I've tried JES and nothing it did proved to be any better (often worse) than MPEG Streamclip. I'll stress I was working with interlaced material.

If you mean 30i or 60i (again, they are the same thing) , you can bob deinterlace it to 60p.

Deinterlacing degrades quality, because it's deviation from the "original". You're right , you can't get better than the source

But when you watch on non interlaced displays (LCD, HDTV, web, basically anything these days) , they either deinterlace anyways (either drop field , interpolation , or some form of line double +/- antialiasing). You can't watch interlaced material properly without a CRT. The super slow software deinterlacers actually do a better job than hardware deinterlacers or on the fly software deinterlacers.

MPEGStreamclip, at least the Windows version, is horrible for deinterlacing. Jagabo was being too nice when he said it was mediocre

I highly recommend you try some avisynth deinterlacers like TempGaussMC_Beta1 (or Beta2) , or Yadifmod+NNEDI2. There is a night/day difference in quality

[rumplestiltskin]

DL'd Virtualdub into my XP VM (in Parallels) but it sees nothing in my videos except the few I have that are AVIs...and they're already deinterlaced. I take the MP4's from my Samsung (which are interlaced), run them through MPEG Streamclip to convert them to AIC for Final Cut and, whether I deinterlace them there or later, the results seem to be the same. I'm not complaining. I probably would be more concerned about this if I weren't shooting SD.

[jagabo]

DL'd Virtualdub into my XP VM (in Parallels) but it sees nothing in my videos except the few I have that are AVIs...and they're already deinterlaced. I take the MP4's from my Samsung (which are interlaced), run them through MPEG Streamclip to convert them to AIC for Final Cut and, whether I deinterlace them there or later, the results seem to be the same. I'm not complaining. I probably would be more concerned about this if I weren't shooting SD.

If you want to compare, here's an interlaced DV AVI cropped from the Stockholm video. The aspect ratio will be a little off because I simply cropped a 720x480 section out of the square pixel source.

http://www.mediafire.com/?nr2nmnmbfom

[Tahlos]

I'm really thankful for all the effort that you all have put forth, but I am kind of getting lost in all the technical talk because I am by no means a video expert (or I wouldn't be posting on this forum, huh?). To simplify I am recording 1080i from my Xbox360 with a Hauppauge HD PVR. I need a good video deinterlace to lose the "combs" on my videos without degrading quality (as little as I can). I will then be editing in Vegas Pro 9 (and maybe After Effects) and then uploading to youtube. Thanks in advance.

[jagabo]

Did you try VirtualDub's Yadif yet? Although it has problems with interlaced YV12 it will probably still look better than MPEG Streamclip. Here's an example where VirtualDub's incorrect handling of YV12 is very obvious (from a vertical panning shot), so you know what to look for.

VirtaulDub's Deinterlace, Yadif, interlaced YV12 source (colors not aligned, stripes):


VirtaulDub's Deinterlace, Yadif, interlaced YUY2 source (colors handled correctly):


What a "perfect" deinterlacer would deliver:


The problems are usually less obvious with real world video than in this animated source.

[Tahlos]

If the video is from a High Definition xbox game with good graphics (such as the Call of Duty series) Will the Color handling be a problem?