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  1. Member
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    I've sent this mail to AVS a week ago through their online support request form but have not even got a acknowledgement reply. This is not the first time they have been so slow too.

    Can anyone help with the following, please?

    2 problems using AVS Video Editor:
    1) Jerky playback from a BD-RE with video made on AVS Video Editor, including a noticeable pause every second during playback
    2) Verify of BD-RE takes a long time

    Media: Verbatim (very good brand) BD-RE Blu-ray disc
    Latest version of AVS Video Editor, full license paid/purchased
    Platform: HP laptop - Windows 7 64bit Home Premium, fully patched, running on a Quad-core Intel i7 1.6-2.8GHz laptop with NVidia/CUDA graphics, 4Gb memory, 7200rpm 500Gb hard drive. LG BE06 LU10 External USB 2.0 Blu-ray burner, latest firmware.

    Source file for use with making Blu-ray video came from a Samsung R10 Camcorder 1080p/25p (twenty-five) frames per second, H.264 MPEG4 (not Panasonic-Sony AVCHD).

    Settings on AVS Video Editor for burning: Standard Blu-ray setting of 24fps, 1080p MPEG4.

    4 things I am requesting from you:

    1) Please advise me on why the jerkiness occurs and how this can be fixed, I have tried 2 verbatim disks and the same problem occurs.

    2) Please advise me why the verify takes so long.

    3) I believe I have all the correct drivers for the Blu-ray, Windows recognises the drive and your software burns to it. I don't believe there are any additional drivers I need. Please be helpful on this one as I asked you about this problem before and I was told to "look online for new drivers" - what drivers? I've got the latest drive firmware, Windows is fully patched and updated. The other requests: 1,2,4 are new.

    4) Please advise how you tested your software for burning 1080p 24p video to BD-RE blu-ray rewriteable - hardware/software combination and versions.
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  2. 1) Jerky playback from a BD-RE with video made on AVS Video Editor, including a noticeable pause every second during playback
    I don't use that software, but the reason you see jerks every second is probably because it's decimating 1 frame every 25 frame cycle in an attempt to make it blu-ray compliant (instead of doing a PAL slowdown => 23.976FPS)
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    Thanks - my response in 2 points:

    Originally Posted by poisondeathray View Post
    1) Jerky playback from a BD-RE with video made on AVS Video Editor, including a noticeable pause every second during playback
    I don't use that software,
    1) Can you recommend an alternative, then, please?

    Originally Posted by poisondeathray View Post
    but the reason you see jerks every second is probably because it's decimating 1 frame every 25 frame cycle in an attempt to make it blu-ray compliant (instead of doing a PAL slowdown => 23.976FPS)
    2) How can this be? I don't think that is the problem. Assuming that the transcoding process is very basic in that it either drops or copies a frame to match the target frame rate, then in the case of 25 frames being recorded to 24 frames per second, I would expect 1 frame per second to be lost. Therefore the noticeable side-effect would be to see a slight speed up, or jump, in motion every second and not a pause.

    Staying with this assumption about the transcoding process, I WOULD expect to see a pause if 24 frame per second footage is being recorded to 25 frame per second target medium - in this case a copy of a frame would be inserted to make it up to 25 frames - and here is where I would see a pause as a result.

    So I think it must be something else, unless you can enlighten me and/or explain the PAL slowdown too - and if using that would fix the problem. Thanks in advance.
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  4. PAL slowdown is analgous to what is done for DVD for PAL=>NTSC conversions. The same #frames is kept, but the entire video & audio is slowed down from 25 to 24000/1001. Note 24.000 fps is compliant for blu-ray too, but 25p is never compliant for SD or HD resolutions (interlaced 50i is, however)

    You're correct about the pause vs. jerk. Pausing is usually from improper or non compliant settings like b-pyramid, or too many reference frames which are too difficult for the hardware decoder to manage

    I would do it with avisynth and x264; this is probably difficult for you to do if you're not already familiar with those applications and what settings to use

    multiavchd might be an easier option; it might do the framerate conversion for you. At least it's free so you could give it a try

    Also note, playback issues are often related to standalone players and firmware versions. Some players are very finicky, while some can play virtually everything, even 25p non compliant blu-ray discs, and non compliant settings

    Another suggestion: I would mount an iso disc image and try software playback to check for problems before burning to BD25/50 media. If it already shows problems before burning , there is no need to waste BD25/50 media
    Last edited by poisondeathray; 22nd Mar 2010 at 09:37.
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    Originally Posted by poisondeathray View Post
    PAL slowdown is analgous to what is done for DVD for PAL=>NTSC conversions. The same #frames is kept, but the entire video & audio is slowed down from 25 to 24000/1001. Note 24.000 fps is compliant for blu-ray too, but 25p is never compliant for SD or HD resolutions (interlaced 50i is, however)
    Does PAL slowdown have relevance in Blu-ray 24p? i.e. 24 progressive i.e. full frames per second. PAL = Phase Alternation Line = interlaced.

    Originally Posted by poisondeathray View Post
    I would do it with avisynth and x264; this is probably difficult for you to do if you're not already familiar with those applications and what settings to use
    Originally Posted by poisondeathray View Post
    multiavchd might be an easier option; it might do the framerate conversion for you. At least it's free so you could give it a try
    Thanks, but those 2 applications might be fine for me but this is for my father, so I don't want losely-coupled fiddly command line solutions. I would like to be advised of a reasonable all-in-one package. I tried Nero 9/Nero Vision but this fails to burn BD-REs whereas AVS works but with the problem I describe in the original post.

    Originally Posted by poisondeathray View Post
    Also note, playback issues are often related to standalone players and firmware versions. Some players are very finicky, while some can play virtually everything, even 25p non compliant blu-ray discs, and non compliant settings
    I would prefer to be able to make perfect, quality 1920x1080p @24p footage to Blu-ray made from the 25p 1920x1080 output from the camcorder. I'm hoping that the frame-rate conversion can be done smoothly cleverly, like some kind of interpolation, blending algorithm to blend 25 frames over 24. Do applications do this?

    Originally Posted by poisondeathray View Post
    Another suggestion: I would mount an iso disc image and try software playback to check for problems before burning to BD25/50 media. If it already shows problems before burning , there is no need to waste BD25/50 media
    Good tip.
    Last edited by rjamesd05; 22nd Mar 2010 at 11:17.
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  6. I'm talking progressive 1920x1080p23.976 or 1920x1080p24.0 . The slowdown I'm referring to refers to the incompatible 25fps frame rate.

    By "PAL" I mean you are shooting with a Euro spec camera. 25FPS. I was just using the analogy to what is done with DVD for this situation, which is basically the same (in terms of the fps conversion) for blu-ray.

    The way I would do this is the slowdown (everything is slowed down ~4.2%), this way you get no artifacts. Blending frames will give you ghosting, but it's your choice. Blending alone won't work, because you need blend + some form of decimate for this conversion because you are going to a lower framerate.

    There is also frame interploation methods (e.g. using motion perfect, after effects pixel motion, avisynth mflowfps), which generate intermediate "in between" frames (since you need an even multiple of 24 to get nice decimation i.e,. 120fps).

    Neither method is ideal. For the slowdown, the audio slowdown is noticable by some people. Blending and decimating gives jerky playback and blurry transitions. Frame interpolation generates motion artifacts in the new frames. Ideal would be shooting @ 23.976 (or 24.000) fps, but I belive the slowdown method is the least of the evils.

    I'm not sure about the other software, or easy to use alternatives, but I have done this exact conversion before using the method I listed above on 1920x1080p25 material. I'm guessing that the software you've been using isn't doing it correctly, or isn't using proper encoding settings

    Perhaps other folk can suggest easier to use GUI solutions, but I would still give multiavchd a try
    Last edited by poisondeathray; 22nd Mar 2010 at 11:30.
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    Thanks for your reply, so it looks like none of the frame conversion processes are perfect.

    Originally Posted by poisondeathray View Post
    I'm talking progressive 1920x1080p23.976 or 1920x1080p24.0 . The slowdown I'm referring to refers to the incompatible 25fps frame rate.

    By "PAL" I mean you are shooting with a Euro spec camera. 25FPS.
    ...which is incompatible with the 24P blu-ray standard on the grounds of different number of frames per second i.e. Blu-ray 24p this "standard" is 25p. I've no idea why 25FPS is any sort of standard - standard for whom? And why didn't they use the common Blu-ray rate of 24p?

    It's a terrible shame that the camera, the Samsung R10 does not appear to have a 24P mode. This could be a achievable with a firmware upgrade. And no, I haven't contacted Samsung yet: it's already hard to see how to contact them on such issues from their website. I can envisage going through lots of flabby inefficient big company contact routing, talking to half-qualified foot soldier commodity employees who read from a crib sheet to tell me what I already know. Well I hope not.

    You'll remember contributing to my previous posting: HD Camcorders: all not 24p capable for archive direct to Blu-ray: thoughts? https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/310153-HD-Camcorders-all-not-24p-capable-for-archiv...oughts#2005552
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  8. Yes , some 24p camcorders can go directly to blu-ray. Most of them are not consumer level. e.g. HMC40/150 have 24pN (native) AVCHD modes, XDCAM shoots 35Mbps MPEG2 and is blu-ray compatible.

    It's a terrible shame that the camera, the Samsung R10 does not appear to have a 24P mode
    But most consumer priced camcorders don't shoot 24pN. And if they do offer "24p" it's not true 24p; it's telecined (24p in 60i container). But all Euro spec cameras have a 25p mode, because it is "standard"

    I've no idea why 25FPS is any sort of standard - standard for whom? And why didn't they use the common Blu-ray rate of 24p?
    25fps is a standard in Europe and PAL regions. BBC broadcast. PAL DVD's. It was a standard long before blu-ray came out; I have no idea why 25fps wasn't included in the blu-ray spec (given that Sony , one of the originators of blu-ray , is quite popular in Europe with broadcast).

    I mentioned this in that earlier post, but I have heard of some people making 25fps blu-ray discs and they do play in some players, but it should be made clear that these are not strict standards compliant and would never pass verification

    Also I've heard of sort of 2:2 pulldown during authoring where the 25p stream is wrapped into a 50i container - which should make it signal compliant (same thing in NTSC regions where 30p would be wrapped in a 60i stream) . There are players that support 2:2 pulldown, but I have yet to see software that authors this properly. Maybe some of the $50K software does this.
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  9. Originally Posted by rjamesd05 View Post
    Originally Posted by poisondeathray View Post
    multiavchd might be an easier option; it might do the framerate conversion for you. At least it's free so you could give it a try
    Thanks, but those 2 applications might be fine for me but this is for my father, so I don't want losely-coupled fiddly command line solutions. I would like to be advised of a reasonable all-in-one package.
    I wouldn't call multiAVCHD that way It will allow you to use your camcoder source without re-encoding, provided it is encoded in level 4.0 or 4.1 (not 4.2 or 5.0). It will assist you in burning to BD-R/RE if you have ImgBurn installed. Should you still want to reencode it to 23.976 it will do it, if you have avisynth, haali and proper directshow decoder like ffdshow.
    Laugh and the world will laugh with you. Cry and you will be alone
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  10. Member
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    Originally Posted by poisondeathray View Post
    Yes , some 24p camcorders can go directly to blu-ray. Most of them are not consumer level. e.g. HMC40/150 have 24pN (native) AVCHD modes, XDCAM shoots 35Mbps MPEG2 and is blu-ray compatible.
    Originally Posted by poisondeathray View Post
    But most consumer priced camcorders don't shoot 24pN. And if they do offer "24p" it's not true 24p; it's telecined (24p in 60i container). But all Euro spec cameras have a 25p mode, because it is "standard"
    Their standard is so unhelpful then. It's not as if they are trying to push the hardware to do more frames. The blu-ray standard is less frames, so it is definitely possible. By analogy, if a car can do 100kmh then surely is can do 90kmh as well?

    I telephoned Samsung today and got a response close to what I said I would expect. Their suggestion was to write a letter to the head office.

    So what is a low-budget enthusiast / consumer to do?

    In the days of DV/Standard Definition, it was simple to record direct to DVD or with a computer based solution.

    Not so with HD, such a similar solution chain to that above, is broken, as my other post suggests:
    "HD Camcorders: all not 24p capable for archive direct to Blu-ray: thoughts? - VideoHelp.com"
    https://forum.videohelp.com/topic373097.html#2005552

    Have I missed something? Do consumers not want to archive their valuable footage to a reasonably robust and shareable portable media format of Blu-ray? Or are most uploading to YouTube in its 1080p mode? Do they really want to place trust in a delicate hard drive for permanent storage?

    Originally Posted by multiAVCHD View Post
    Originally Posted by rjamesd05 View Post
    Originally Posted by poisondeathray View Post
    multiavchd might be an easier option; it might do the framerate conversion for you. At least it's free so you could give it a try
    Thanks, but those 2 applications might be fine for me but this is for my father, so I don't want losely-coupled fiddly command line solutions. I would like to be advised of a reasonable all-in-one package.
    I wouldn't call multiAVCHD that way It will allow you to use your camcoder source without re-encoding, provided it is encoded in level 4.0 or 4.1 (not 4.2 or 5.0). It will assist you in burning to BD-R/RE if you have ImgBurn installed. Should you still want to reencode it to 23.976 it will do it, if you have avisynth, haali and proper directshow decoder like ffdshow.
    Myself, I would be happy to use your software, but this for someone, my father, less able or willing to learn the intricacies. The AVS Video Editor solution provided a very user-friendly interface to this end, but their support is terrible (no acknowledgement, auto or otherwise to my support request, no response after over a week) and the product failed anyway as is described in the original post in this thread.
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  11. Originally Posted by rjamesd05 View Post
    Their standard is so unhelpful then. It's not as if they are trying to push the hardware to do more frames. The blu-ray standard is less frames, so it is definitely possible. By analogy, if a car can do 100kmh then surely is can do 90kmh as well?
    You would think so , but it's actually not that simple in many cases. They often need a completely new chip redesign, because of the way the signal processing was designed to package the stream (this is the same reason why 24p is wrapped in 60i , and not as 24p Native as in the pro/prosumer models). But in the PAL case, it would seem feasible through firmware

    I telephoned Samsung today and got a response close to what I said I would expect. Their suggestion was to write a letter to the head office.
    There exists cases where users have petioned and got firmware revisions. E.g. the Canon 5D recently got 24pN mode added through firmware. But there are thousands of users who petitioned and it's really an Indy filmmaker favorite. Maybe if you got 1000's of users to petition, Samsung might be motivated to do something similar But I seriously doubt it...

    So what is a low-budget enthusiast / consumer to do?
    You shoot 60i (or 50i in PAL regions) and it goes straight to blu-ray

    In the days of DV/Standard Definition, it was simple to record direct to DVD or with a computer based solution.
    Not a good comparison IMO. DV doesn't have native 24p either, and could never record direct to DVD. It was/is 60i. There were DV Cam variants that shot 2:3:3:2 24PA, but it never went direct to DVD. You need to process and remove pulldown through and editor. Sure you could use a MPEG2 SD camcorder, but the quality is abysmal.

    Not so with HD, such a similar solution chain to that above, is broken, as my other post suggests:
    "HD Camcorders: all not 24p capable for archive direct to Blu-ray: thoughts? - VideoHelp.com"
    https://forum.videohelp.com/topic373097.html#2005552
    But that's the thing. The cameras that shoot 24pN can archive direct to blu-ray. I listed some models above. Shoot in 60i/50i and you can too.

    Have I missed something? Do consumers not want to archive their valuable footage to a reasonably robust and shareable portable media format of Blu-ray? Or are most uploading to YouTube in its 1080p mode? Do they really want to place trust in a delicate hard drive for permanent storage?
    I like hard drives for archive. Cost/capacity, you can make copies quite easily for redundancy on important footage. The jury is still out on whether or not BD media is "robust". I haven't had any issues, but if you search many others have. Some reported failures even after a few plays (on good expensive media).
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  12. Member
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    Originally Posted by poisondeathray View Post

    I telephoned Samsung today and got a response close to what I said I would expect. Their suggestion was to write a letter to the head office.
    So what is a low-budget enthusiast / consumer to do?
    You shoot 60i (or 50i in PAL regions) and it goes straight to blu-ray
    Originally Posted by poisondeathray View Post
    But that's the thing. The cameras that shoot 24pN can archive direct to blu-ray. I listed some models above. Shoot in 60i/50i and you can too.
    This is encouraging to know, but apparently Blu-ray is 59.94i not 60i. What's the difference? Or is 60i just short-hand for 59.94i ?
    ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blu-ray_Disc )

    The Samsung R10 camcorder can shoot at: Video HD: 1920x1080@60i(SF/N)

    I can live with this 60i mode rather than 25p, if it is (more) compatible with Blu-ray. Previewing on a 40" Samsung full HD TV, I didn't notice any difference, at first glance.

    I thought that p is better than i as p or more filmic. Does the refresh rate of the TV improve 60i? e.g. a 100,200 or 300Hz TV?

    The camcorder quality is OK, though I wouldn't say *for this camera* 1080 is totally exploited as particularly with moving subjects there are some codec artifacts though stationary areas have clarity. It's what you would expect for a 300pound device I guess, but most likely much better than the SD 720x576 equivalent in the same range.
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  13. Originally Posted by rjamesd05 View Post
    Originally Posted by poisondeathray View Post

    I telephoned Samsung today and got a response close to what I said I would expect. Their suggestion was to write a letter to the head office.
    So what is a low-budget enthusiast / consumer to do?
    You shoot 60i (or 50i in PAL regions) and it goes straight to blu-ray
    Originally Posted by poisondeathray View Post
    But that's the thing. The cameras that shoot 24pN can archive direct to blu-ray. I listed some models above. Shoot in 60i/50i and you can too.
    This is encouraging to know, but apparently Blu-ray is 59.94i not 60i. What's the difference? Or is 60i just short-hand for 59.94i ?
    ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blu-ray_Disc )

    The Samsung R10 camcorder can shoot at: Video HD: 1920x1080@60i(SF/N)

    I can live with this 60i mode rather than 25p, if it is (more) compatible with Blu-ray. Previewing on a 40" Samsung full HD TV, I didn't notice any difference, at first glance.

    I thought that p is better than i as p or more filmic. Does the refresh rate of the TV improve 60i? e.g. a 100,200 or 300Hz TV?

    The camcorder quality is OK, though I wouldn't say *for this camera* 1080 is totally exploited as particularly with moving subjects there are some codec artifacts though stationary areas have clarity. It's what you would expect for a 300pound device I guess, but most likely much better than the SD 720x576 equivalent in the same range.

    Yes , 60i is short for 59.94i, which is short for 60000/1001 fields per second, and it give a more "live" look, like live action sports or soap operas. 60i is worlds apart from the 25p or 24p look. If you couldn't see the difference, maybe you don't have it setup properly

    "Filmic" has a lot to do with DoF, shooting technique , but jerky fps (23.976) does play a role

    You have to check your TV specs and playback modes, because you need even multiples for proper playback. e.g. in a NTSC region, 60i would be played back fine on 120Hz LCD's because it's an even multiple. Some sets do some funky business to playback, like frame doubling or frame interpoloation (e.g. 24fps x 5 = 120). If you're in a PAL region , you probably want to shoot 50i , not 60i (you might have a set that does 100Hz)

    The fact that your model shoots 25p, suggests to me that it would shoot 50i , not 60i (i.e. it's a Euro spec model from a PAL region)
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  14. Member
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    Originally Posted by poisondeathray View Post
    Yes , 60i is short for 59.94i, which is short for 60000/1001 fields per second, and it give a more "live" look, like live action sports or soap operas. 60i is worlds apart from the 25p or 24p look. If you couldn't see the difference, maybe you don't have it setup properly


    "Filmic" has a lot to do with DoF, shooting technique , but jerky fps (23.976) does play a role
    OK, I'll check it out again.

    I'm looking for any setting that works best and gives the best results on Blu-ray but it would be a shame that I would have to forfeit a particular look and feel of say filmic in progressive mode over what you describe a live feel on an interlaced mode. Maybe live might be too harsh in some scenarios. I think I would need to experiment more.

    Thanks for all your advice.

    Originally Posted by poisondeathray View Post
    You have to check your TV specs and playback modes, because you need even multiples for proper playback. e.g. in a NTSC region, 60i would be played back fine on 120Hz LCD's because it's an even multiple. Some sets do some funky business to playback, like frame doubling or frame interpoloation (e.g. 24fps x 5 = 120). If you're in a PAL region , you probably want to shoot 50i , not 60i (you might have a set that does 100Hz)

    The fact that your model shoots 25p, suggests to me that it would shoot 50i , not 60i (i.e. it's a Euro spec model from a PAL region)
    The UK specification does say 60i (59.94-i):
    http://www.samsung.com/uk/consumer/camera-camcorder/camcorders/high-definition/HMX-R10...pec&fullspec=F

    But maybe they have just copy-pasted from the US specification pages.

    It's a shame there are still differing standards of PAL and NTSC and not a unified global standard in this digital world.

    By the way, I've started a new separate thread to deal specifically with slow verification issue with BD-RE Blu-rays made with AVS Video Editor.
    https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/318595-AVS-Video-Editor-Blu-ray-verification-slow-a...26#post1972726
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