Converting through hardware (DVR) from PAL to NTSC

[jerappelle]

There are several DVD players that can play PAL dvds on NTSC machines. I would like to buy a DVR that accepts input signal, so I can input a PAL signal (from example from a VCR) and output that to NTSC. Basically, I would get a PAL-NTSC converter on top of my DVD recorder. I have seen a few DVRs that do that, like the LiteOn 5005, but they all seem now to have been disconnected. The DVR would also need to be easily modifiable to remove macrovision protection. Does anybody have any experience with this problem and can suggest a cheap DVR machine? (I don't want to spend $3-400 on multisystem machines). I am interested in a standalone hardware solution like a DVR, not in using a computer with a videocapture card to do the conversion.
I also tried a small portable DVD player that has input and output, but unfortunately it looks like the manufactured disabled the ability to throughput the signal (I can only input or output, with conversion, but cannot do both).

Any help? Thank you all.

[Krispy Kritter]

I'm not aware of any DVR's or recorder that will accept PAL and record/output in NTSC, but I've not realy researched it.

As for the MV issue, none of the new players allow it to be disabled. You'll end up needing to use a video stablizer/clarifier.

[tinker]

Check this one:
http://store.emptronics.com/dvr-550h.html
or type "DVD recorders PAL to NTSC" in your search, there is more.

[hech54]

Check this one:
http://store.emptronics.com/dvr-550h.html
or type "DVD recorders PAL to NTSC" in your search, there is more.

This recorder....nor any other recorder I have ever seen....will NOT convert an incoming
signal to another signal before it hits the hard drive or blank DVD. It clearly states that in the specs.

[jerappelle]

First of all, of course I have already done a lot of research, so please, unless you have some specific information, comments like google it are useless.

Some say that the LiteOn 5005 can do what I want to do, see:
http://club.cdfreaks.com/f106/pal-input-ntsc-output-147571/

Also, it appears you can disable Macrovision:
http://club.cdfreaks.com/f102/liteon-5005-a-103379/

However, this is an old DVR that is not being produced anymore and I could not independently confirm any statement about this DVR or any others. That is why I came to the forum with the most expert and knowledgeable people on the internet!!

Not many people seem to be interested in what I am doing, and while this can be done in software and there are plenty of programs out there to do this, I do not want to have to convert all my tapes before hand, but I want to do it "on the fly" without having to move my computer next to my TV. Also, quality is not a big concern. I am interested in watching PAL tapes, mostly for children (my daughter).
If I had a 50Hz compatible TV this would be easier, see:
http://sewelldirect.com/mayflash-pal-to-ntsc-converter.asp

but I don't, so I need something that will stabilize my vertical sync besides taking care of the colors (stabilizing vertical sync without a V-sync button is not easy).
If anybody out there has some information that would be great. Thank you again.

[jerappelle]

One more thing, of course I know I can spend 5-600 dollars and buy a multisystem VCR or a new compatible TV, but I am trying to find a solution cheaper than that. Thank you.

[jman98]

Here's a better solution - if you have the ability to record in PAL from PAL VHS tapes and make PAL DVDs from them, it is VERY easy in the USA to find DVD players that can convert PAL DVD video output to NTSC. I've never seen a Philips DVD player that can't do this and many of their players are very cheap.

I don't think what you want to do is really possible. On your first link, I see one guy asked if it was possible and unless I am missing something, I see no replies. That was in 2005.

[hech54]

Not many people seem to be interested in what I am doing

I used to be VERY interested. I own (or owned...the VCR is still in America) a Philips
DVDR985 that can record in either NTSC or PAL(no convert on the fly) to a blank disc.
And I also own one of those $400 true converting VCRs (Aiwa HV MX 100)that does convert "on the fly" both
inbound and outbound.
When working with VHS...there are not many alternatives unfortunately.

[jerappelle]

hech54, are you saying that the only solution is then getting one of those VCR that do the conversion on the fly? There are no dvr that will do the same? You might be right, even though I find it hard to undertstand since it should be easier with a dvr than a vcr. According to your experience, any model you'd suggest?

I could do the conversioon to DVDs, but I am trying to do the conversion on the fly without having to burn a dvd.

Another question, but maybe it is the same: the real problem is to go from 50 to 60hz.
Going from the 625 lines in PAL to 525 in NTSC, even if not dealt with, will at most cut a portion of the screen below or above.
The color conversion is relatively easy.
Does anybody know if there is a way to go from 50 to 60 hz?

Thank you for all the useful replies.

[jerappelle]

One more question: has anybody evr tried something like:
http://www.goldenshop.com.hk/AI-trad/Misc_htm/m_kdv500.htm and know where to find them in the US?

[victoriabears]

My experience with pal to NTSC or vice versa, is capture it in its native format and then use a dvd player that will convert, I have used oppo and Philips and never seen the jerkiness others experience, and I view on a brand new LCD 46 inch Sony.

Again my experience is using TMPG express gives very good results if you really want to convert, or what you can do is use my 1st suggestion and then use the output from the dvd player to a dvd recorder of your standards choice.

[hech54]

hech54, are you saying that the only solution is then getting one of those VCR that do the conversion on the fly? There are no dvr that will do the same? You might be right, even though I find it hard to undertstand since it should be easier with a dvr than a vcr. According to your experience, any model you'd suggest?

The moral to the story is....I've never seen a recording device ....other than a true converting VCR...that can record an incoming signal as "something else".
If I want to convert a DVD to something else....I use a converting DVD player to convert the signal and
use my DVD Recorder. I am also one of the lucky ones who owns a DVD recorder that can record both NTSC and PAL....not many of them can.
I got VERY lucky on that one.

True converting VCRs are expensive...no two ways about that unfortunately. I own and love my
Aiwa HV MX 100 true converting VCR.

Discontinued.... $699.85
I did NOT pay that much for it...mine was about $400.

http://www.amazon.com/Aiwa-HV-MX100-Hi-Fi-Multi-System-VCR/dp/B00001QGUQ


Check out the reviews for it:
http://www.amazon.com/review/product/B00001QGUQ/ref=dp_db_cm_cr_acr_txt?%5Fencoding=UT...owViewpoints=1

[orsetto]

Forget the Lite-On 5005: its dead and buried and was never widely available in the USA. They ones that were sold here proved unreliable so they would not be a good buy second hand. Assume what the other posters said is essentially true: there is NO dvd recorder available that will internally do an on-the-fly pass thru conversion of PAL to NTSC, and clear MacroVision. And if there was, it would not be inexpensive.

Since your primary goal seems to be simple playback of PAL tapes on an NTSC display, the least expensive and easiest solution is to buy an external converter box like the one you linked to earlier. They are available in the US from online dealers and some shops that deal in international electronics in large cities like New York and Los Angeles. I've also seen many of them on eBay. Cost ranges from $60 to $200 depending on new or used, and how elaborate the features. For you, the simplest and cheapest you can find will be sufficient. I have had one of these converters for ten years, I used to do a lot of conversions for some friends who received PAL tapes from their relatives in Finland. You don't get extremely good results, because converting crummy VHS does not come out as clear as converting DVDs, but the results are very watchable with good color and decent sharpness. The only flaw all these boxes seem to have is that the number of scan lines don't quite match up in the conversion, so there is a tiny bit of "junk" visible at the very bottom of the screen (on a 32" screen, perhaps the bottom half-inch). Anyway its a cheap simple viewing solution, and it also gives you the ability to dub those PAL tapes to NTSC dvds if you ever need to.

(BTW, for those of you who find "American Idol" an incomprehensible phenomenon, you haven't lived until you've seen one of the many weekly "talent shows" or "musical programs" that air in Finland. Holy Toledo: have to see it to believe it. )

[victoriabears]

why do you want to convert, to send the result to family who only have NTSC dvd players?

[Krispy Kritter]

why do you want to convert, to send the result to family who only have NTSC dvd players?

To play his PAL VHS tapes on his NTSC TV. It's covered earlier in the thread. He want's to just watch them (being converted as they play) as opposed to spending the time to convert to DVD.

[FulciLives]

My experience with pal to NTSC or vice versa, is capture it in its native format and then use a dvd player that will convert, I have used oppo and Philips and never seen the jerkiness others experience, and I view on a brand new LCD 46 inch Sony.

This is good advice.

Play back the PAL VHS tapes using a PAL VHS VCR ... it need not be the "converting" type ... it just needs to be a VHS VCR that can play PAL VHS and output a PAL signal.

Then record that PAL signal onto a PAL DVD and play back the PAL DVD using a DVD player that does PAL to NTSC conversion "on-the-fly". Philips was mentioned and is a good inexpensive choice of such a DVD player.

The problem is the first step. How to record to PAL DVD? Well it is possible to find stand alone DVD recorders that can record in PAL and NTSC but as mentioned they only record what you feed them ... input PAL and you get a PAL recording. This would be easiest.

Second best solution would be to get a capture device on the computer than can capture in PAL DVD format. For that I suggest the Hauppauge WinTV PVR 250 or the Hauppauge WinTV PVR 350. Both are PCI and both can do PAL recording from the "line" inputs (not the RF cable input).

As for finding a PAL capble VHS VCR and DVD recorder than can do PAL/NTSC I suggest you look at some websites that offer such equipment. One that is reliable and fairly well priced is 220-Electronics.com

Good Luck !!!

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[victoriabears]

Also look at Ebay I will also be selling some PAL vcr's as I am ending my vhs>dvd conversions, or these work quite well, and it is NOT my sale.

http://cgi.ebay.ca/SAMSUNG-SV-5000W-WORLDWIDE-VHS-CONVERTER-PAL-NTSC-SECAM_W0QQitemZ15...QQcmdZViewItem

http://cgi.ebay.ca/Panasonic-AG-W1-P-HiFi-Stereo-VCR_W0QQitemZ180238301716QQihZ008QQca...QQcmdZViewItem

[jerappelle]

Thank you for all the advice. I do own a PAL VCR player, just not a PAl or multisystem TV.

The problem with the converter, like the one I linked to, is that they will convert the color but leave it at 60Hz, and my US NTSC TV does not like that.
The way I understand it those converters have a chip that converts PAL to RCA and another that does RCA to NTSC, but the number of lines and frequency are unaffected.

Older TV had a V-hold button that could be used to stabilise the image, but on new ones I do ot see that (in fact on my old TV, that broke, I could see PAL tapes fine, even though they were B/W).
So, even if I convert the color, I am still left with an image moving up and down the screen because the TV cannot sync the 50hz signal (since NTSC works on a 60hz signal).

If anybody knew how to fix that last problem, I could use one of those even if quality was not great. Anyway to change the V-hold on newer TVs (I might be getting off-topic for this thread though)?

By the way, I do have a DVD player that can play PAL DVDs and convert to NTSC, it is just a pain to transfer 100 tapes into DVDs, and now that we are in the Blue-Ray time I am not too happy to spend 500 for a VCR that will probably be obsolete soon and I won't be able to fix if it breaks.

[orsetto]

I'm not quite sure why you think a converter box wouldn't work for you? The one I use is at least 12 years old now, it cost about $200 in the late 1990s and I often see used examples of it on eBay for no more than $50. It converts in any direction between PAL-NTSC-SECAM (although I've never had a SECAM tape or VCR to test the SECAM). It has never failed to convert a PAL tape into watchable NTSC, I have never experienced the "rolling image" you speak of and have never adjusted a television because of conversion artifacts. These devices would be near-useless if they converted just the color but didn't patch the 50-60Hz differential, nobody would buy them if their pictures rolled. Assuming the current generation of converters is newer and more efficient than my old one, I doubt they would be LESS capable?

I play my friends' PAL tapes on a very low-end dual-voltage Sony PAL vhs vcr, there is nothing at all special about it, it was suggested by the store that sold me the converter and cost maybe $90 twelve years ago. So I'm not sure what your rolling issue stems from or how to reproduce it with my own gear. Perhaps you're just *assuming* a converter won't work based on the specs: why not buy one from a store with a return policy and try it? Or , buy a dirt cheap used one on eBay and if it doesn't work re-sell it with no harm done. I'm pretty sure you'd be pleased and its by far the easiest and least expensive option, since you already have a PAL vcr anyway?

[FulciLives]

The problem with all PAL to NTSC converters that I have seen is that they suck ass. They really do.

I used to have a model I bought around 1995 that cost $650 and was considered the best consumer or to borrow a line from Sony ... the best prosumer ... PAL to NTSC converter. It works OK but really the image wasn't THAT great.

I then tried another though cheaper unit (10 years or more had passed so the cheaper price didn't "scare" me away) called the CMD-850 and it sucked even more yet it was still about $200 or so.

Trust me ... you are better off buying a PAL DVD recorder ... recording in PAL ... then play back on a DVD player that does the PAL to NTSC conversion.

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

P.S.
If you want a PAL to NTSC converter ---> http://www.220-electronics.com/kdv5000.htm

[victoriabears]

The Philips recorders record in PAL as do many of the Wal Mart specials, and if you really wanted to go nuts, panasonic do a combo in the UK that can do either pal or ntsc vhs>dvd.

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Panasonic-DMR-EZ47-DVD-Recorder-VCR-RRP-299-99-NEW_W0QQitemZ1202...QQcmdZViewItem

I have one and it does a great job, its simple and easy to operate and gives you about 70% or more of the quality that more compplicated processes will give you.

Here is a good list of converters, the tenlab was the best I have seen, but as noted none of them are great, only software seems to be best at this.

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?shs=converter+pal&ci=0&sb=ps&pn=1&sq=d...arch&Q=*&bhs=t


Let us know if we can help further.

[FulciLives]

I used to have a Tenlabs TR-10SP (cost me about $650 circa the mid 1990's) but the last time I used it ... it started to "act up" and I haven't used it in a long time because my multi-system VHS VCR died on me and I never got another (even though I still have some PAL VHS tapes).

Considering the cost of those units I still say the best solution is a stand alone PAL capable DVD recorder. Just play and record and there you go ... no fuss and no mess. Once the tapes are converted to DVD you no longer need the recorder per se and PAL to NTSC converting DVD players are plentiful and inexpensive. On the bright side if you get a DVD recorder that does PAL and NTSC you can continue to use it for NTSC VHS and/or TV recordings etc. thus making it more than worth the price and again even a very excellent model (i.e., expensive) Pioneer PAL/NTSC stand alone DVD recorder is MUCH cheaper than a Tenlabs unit ... and far more useful in the long run.

If I had the money I would pick the Pioneer DVR-340H or even better yet the Pioneer DVR-550H if for nothing more than it doubles the HDD and is a slightly newer unit. Both do PAL and NTSC recording and are at 220-Electronics.com

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[orsetto]

Agreed, the external converters are hardly the "best" solution if you want the nth degree of archival quality, but the OP has specifically said he wants "cheap" and "doesn't really care how it looks" as long as it doesn't roll on his TV. He also stated he doesn't want to spend weeks actually transferring 200 tapes to DVD just to be able to watch them sporadically: he was hoping to use a dual-standard DVD recorder as a pass-thru converter. He already has the PAL vcr and seems content to use it until the tapes disintegrate. So a cheap PAL-NTSC converter box accessory might suit his needs: it would allow convenient quick-n-dirty direct viewing of non-critical PAL tapes at whim without having to spend hours converting to DVD first.

There are two kinds of PAL tape collections in the US: those of specialist buffs such as FulciLives, who needs to preserve a variety of hard-to-find movies in the best possible quality, and those which consist mostly of local TV programming people bring or have sent from other other countries, which are viewed occasionally for light entertainment but are not highly prized as collectible by their owners. An impossible-to-see-in-the-US vintage Italian horror film is arguably worth the effort and expense of "perfect" archiving to DVD, whereas dozens of tapes of soap operas, game shows and movies dubbed in a different language and loaded with commercials from foreign broadcasts might be best left as tapes on a shelf. It all depends on your viewing priorities and how much time/expense you can devote to real-time, tape-to-DVD format conversion.

[jerappelle]

Thank you for all of you who have replied. I apprecaite also the people who post links and comments on converters. To orsetto I just want to reply taht yes, there are converters that will take care of the 50 vs 60 hz problem, and they cost about 200 or more. There are other converters, for just $30-35 that will take care of the color conversion, but not the hz conversion. I was trying to keep costs dowm. Maybe I should check e-bay as you suggest for a good deal.
Since I already have a PAL players, and tapes are not going to be around for uch longer, I find not worth it to spend $600 on a multisystem VCR. I know there are plenty of solutions if you want to spend the money, but I was trying to do it on the cheap since I am not a professional and quality was not my main concern.

Thank you for all the suggestions and if you have any particular converter tool (hardware, not software) that is inexpensive and you like let me know the name. Also, if you know of any DVR that can record PAL/NTSC (and I can disable macrovision) maybe I can use that and then use my DVD player that can output PAL DVDs to NTSC for playback (since I understand I can probably forget about any DVR having play-through capability).

[victoriabears]

I knew there would be a solution?

http://www.samstores.com/details.asp?ProdID=5760

[Billf2099]

I knew there would be a solution?

http://www.samstores.com/details.asp?ProdID=5760

They were selling these guys at Costco a few years back and they either sold out or got yanked.
My Philips recorder can take a PAL signal and make a PAL DVD, then play a PAL DVD and output it to NTSC. I am unsure of if its possible to record on one and output another, I'm going to say no.

All of my philips standalone players can play PAL media and output to NTSC monitors.

I know the original poster didn't want a multi part process, but lets be real here. Tapes are not going to last forever. To make them last longer, make DVD's out of them already. As for defeating the anti-copy technology in a tape, its not all that hard, they sold that stuff off the shelf in Best Buy a few years ago. Under the guise of 'stabilizing' video output. Which actually was somewhat important in the first generations of camcorders getting transferred to VHS. I don't need to do that, I have a couple VCR's stashed away along with the tapes. usually I find it easier to just buy another DVD then yank the stuff out and mess up the living room.


One common scheme for doing a pass through conversion was using a camcorder with Pal to NTSC converting, hook up the inputs with the PAL signal, set the camcorder to record, hook the outputs to the TV and voila. Naturally camcorders cannot defeat copy protection, but they could and did do a decent job on converting, probably using the same circuit that's in most DVD players.

But that's all possibilities. Here's some reality for you.

This link http://www.bgsales.com/video-stabilizer/index.html
Will stabilize any crazy color or jittery picture that occurs after you do this link
http://www.amazon.com/Atlona-Multi-System-Converter-Amplifiers-Converters/dp/B000HJGDWS

This will enable you to watch your Pal VHS on an NTSC TV. If you don't like the picture or the color, use the stabilizer.

You all will note this is ONLY about watching his Pal tapes and not about recording them on anything else. The concerns about Vertical stabilization and color shifting in the conversion process. On Pal DVD's I sometimes notice some tearing on the bottom of the screen. So conversion is not perfect. There are tools.

No DVR tools however.

[FulciLives]

I knew there would be a solution?

http://www.samstores.com/details.asp?ProdID=5760

This is a LiteOn LVW-5115PN and this model is cheaper at 220-Electronics.com so if anybody really wants this ... no need to buy it from samstores.com

- John "FulciLives"" Coleman

[orsetto]

That Lite-On recorder at SamStores STILL requires an outboard converter to make NTSC from PAL tapes, it will NOT convert by itself or act as a pass-thru "live" standards converter: scroll to the bottom for their fine print disclaimer. You have to be really careful shopping these international recorder models with "region free" mods being sold by every Tom, Dick & Harry: they make a vague pitch hoping you will think they are "multistandard converters" when they really aren't. All they'll do is record a DVD with no embedded region code and play back DVDs from any region. Useful enough if you need those features, but be aware there is pretty much no way around a PAL>NTSC standards conversion that doesn't involve an outboard box, a PC with some fairly complicated software, or a pricey multistandard self-converting VCR.

I understand the OPs frustration, even though I can't seem to duplicate his exact problem: using either my own 12-year-old outboard converter box or a new total cheapie no-name generic box I borrowed from a friend, PAL tapes play thru to my television with no rolling and adequate color/ detail. Nothing to write home about, but then it doesn't look any worse than cable TV either. I've never heard of or experienced this 50/60Hz rolling problem the OP keeps having, nor is it even mentioned as a possible concern in the converter instructions I've read: perhaps some of the newer flat panels are just super-picky about this? If that's the issue, it may may require major intervention to compensate. He may have to go the whole nine yards and do the DVD conversions.

[deuce8pro]

I just bought on ebay a AIWA HV-MX100U to transfer some PAL tapes I have. I hope that my JVC DRM-100 NTSC DVD recorder will record the signal. Can anyone tell me if it will or wont?

[FulciLives]

I just bought on ebay a AIWA HV-MX100U to transfer some PAL tapes I have. I hope that my JVC DRM-100 NTSC DVD recorder will record the signal. Can anyone tell me if it will or wont?

I'm guessing you got it by now (haven't been around these parts much lately) but the short answer is YES. This VHS VCR can play back a PAL VHS tape and output NTSC.

Will you be happy with the image quality? Probably not. But hey, it works 8)

- John "FulciLives" Coleman