Weird Doings in PIO - DMA-ville

[Seeker47]

Not coming to this cold -- have already skimmed around in (but not read the entirety of) these threads

https://forum.videohelp.com/topic355034.html?highlight=pio%20dma
https://forum.videohelp.com/topic353453.html?highlight=pio%20dma
https://forum.videohelp.com/topic346702.html?highlight=pio%20dma
https://forum.videohelp.com/topic345318.html?highlight=pio%20dma

and there are many other related threads here.

I had some still-unknown system mishap with my few years old P4 W2K-SP4 computer. There was some sort of crash, after which neither the system HDD nor a couple spares I tried would boot. But it seemed unlikely that the HDDs themselves had failed. The burner could now not read many CDs or DVDs that were no problem before, or only read some of the disc contents. Although the burner is far from new, I don't believe it is failing either. No bent pins evident on any device. No malware issues.

There are two separate IDE channels, with one Master device on each -- HDD on one, and DVD burner on the other. Tried swapping IDE channels, for either device. After a lot more troubleshooting, my best guess pointed towards the IDE controllers on the MB. So, I put in a new, identical MB, and took this opportunity to also replace the PSU (had a spare), and put in new cables. It cost less than you might think, and I still have some plans for this box.

This is where the "fun" began. The regular system HDD resumed booting, the old burner resumed reading whatever CDs or DVDs I put in. But W2K definitely had issues: it came up in 640 x 480 VGA and wanted to re-install a shitload of drivers that had already been there for a long time. I've managed to get most of that sorted out -- or so I thought.

I tried to open Fab Decrypter. It helpfully informed me that DMA was not enabled for the HDD or the burner, and would I like it to correct this for me ? (I had some vague recall about DMA vs. PIO mode, but couldn't remember which was the one you wanted.) So I chose 'Yes', and the system rebooted. Wrong Answer ! -- at least in this case. After this, there was a very long delay with every program opened. Like several minutes ! OR, when I'd click on Program 3 (nothing having opened yet), this would slowly bring up Program 2. I deliberately chose things like NotePad, rather than any memory-hog type programs. In this condition, the computer isn't very usable.

I next went into the device control section (probably not the same location where it is in XP) and reset both IDE channels from DMA to PIO, and rebooted. This cured the Window / Program Open delays. Things were looking up. So I thought I'd try to burn a DVD with IMGBURN. I successfully burned a full Verb DL . . . but it took around an hour and 40 minutes, at a 4x burn speed, whereas normal time for that procedure on this system -- including Verify -- has normally been more like 25 minutes. (The resulting DL DVD is fine, by the way -- further suggesting the burner is still functional.)

But this seems to leave me with a couple of rather unappealing alternatives. Something is clearly not right here. My first inclination is to uninstall / re-install the IDE drivers, maybe revisit the settings, and hope that clears things up. (Unless there are some Registry keys that will still be problematic.) If this situation sounds familiar, or you have some other suggestions, I'd really like to hear them.

[SLK001]

DMA is the mode you want to be in - the highest "ultra" mode that is available. Something might be hanging up your DMA controller. Try disconnecting everything but your boot HDD and see if your performance improves.

It sounds like you have corrupted your system (prob your registry and the only way to fix that I know is to reinstall the OS). Try installing a spare HDD and seeing if a system reinstall will restore your system to its previous nimble self.

[aedipuss]

my guess would be that the OS recognized the new motherboard as different from the previous one. it might be as slight as a different bios rev #, and it needs a full reinstall of all low level drivers.

i wouldn't bother.

just bite the bullet at this point and re-format the drive clean, and do a full re-install of the OS.

[Seeker47]

DMA is the mode you want to be in - the highest "ultra" mode that is available. Something might be hanging up your DMA controller. Try disconnecting everything but your boot HDD and see if your performance improves.

Thanks for the reply. There's not much left to disconnect, except the burner. The FDD that was part of the original system build may be dead, and has been disconnected for awhile.

Does setting PIO or DMA inside Windows "flip a switch" in the HDD or burner (which would also have effect in a different, non-Win OS, until re-set), or is it just something for that particular OS boot partition ?

I'm wondering what effect this situation would have on an outboard burner, over USB ? The same thing, probably, because the IDE controller rules.

It sounds like you have corrupted your system (prob your registry and the only way to fix that I know is to reinstall the OS). Try installing a spare HDD and seeing if a system reinstall will restore your system to its previous nimble self.

What about a Registry restore from backup ? I'll have to check on this, but the most recent one could be three months old or more, at this point. Not great, but way easier than starting over from scratch.

It should be possible for me to test a fresh install on a spare HDD, if that turns out to be necessary.

[Seeker47]

my guess would be that the OS recognized the new motherboard as different from the previous one. it might be as slight as a different bios rev #,

That sounds like a plausible theory.

and it needs a full reinstall of all low level drivers.

i wouldn't bother.

just bite the bullet at this point and re-format the drive clean, and do a full re-install of the OS.

Thanks for the reply. That would cost me weeks, with the four years worth of patches, all the apps installs, all the User Prefs customization to the OS and for all the app.s. That is partly why the design of Windoze totally sucks big boulders. It is possible to slipstream 2K or XP with all the patches, for a reinstall -- something I unfortunately never did -- but that only cuts the job down by perhaps a third. (There should be some mechanism to put everything back the way it was, quickly, and I bet some IT departments have a way.)

So, I'm extremely resistant to that idea, and would rather spend some time and effort on attempting a fix.

[aedipuss]

if you really need to try to get that one back to working, re-install all the drivers. start with flashing the motherboard bios, reset the bios to safe mode, make any performance changes to the bios, then install the motherboard inf's, and work out from there. but again i think if you are going to do all that work anyway the best bet would be a fresh os install.

weeks sounds a little long. 2 days(about half of it unattended) is about as long as it's ever taken me to get a new machine built and running to replace an old one. i do use XPpro slipstreamed with the latest sp. it does save on endless M$ updates and reboots.

[Nelson37]

You could start with going into Device Manager and first uninstalling, then deleting. Everything then re-boot and let Windows re-install all the new hardware with new drivers.

Re-install of Windows on top of the existing install would be another step, this will preserve all software. Patches and updates also required.

If you haven't already replaced the IDE cables, do that as well. Make sure the flaky floppy drive is not connected in any way.

Run a CHKDSK and then a Defrag on the Hard drive. New drives are cheap and you could Ghost or other Image copy from the original to preserve everything. Monitor the CHKDSK operation for errors. IIRC this whole process started with a drive error or failure, you might still be dealing with the same issue.

Clean out all the Temp directories, check for recovered lost clusters.

A re-format and re-install is a royal PITA, and sometimes just not feasible. However, it is somewhat like moving, it gives you a chance to sort through all the crap which is never used and get rid of it. There is also the chance of forgetting to pack something you really need later.

A half-step would be to get another drive, format and re-install Windows and a few apps WITH THE ORIGINAL DRIVE COMPLETELY REMOVED, and test performance this way. May help to Isolate and Identify the problem.

[redwudz]

If you can't get the drives to DMA mode, you might read this. Sorry, it's a bit long. :

DMA reverts to PIO
The stuttering DVD drive
General description

DMA is an abbreviation for Direct Memory Access, an access method for external
devices where the data transfer is not done by the central processor, but by a
small special processor called DMA controller. It uses a procedure called cycle
stealing, where the central processor memory access cycles are delayed for very
short times to intersperse DMA controller memory access cycles. Some newer,
faster DMA modes are called UDMA (Ultra DMA).
The alternative, slow and inefficient data transfer mode is called PIO,
Programmed Input-Output, where the central processor transfers data byte for
byte or word for word. This requires many processor commands for each data word
and therefore causes a high and unwanted processor load.
Possible causes for falling back to PIO mode
The most frequent use why a CD or DVD port falls back to PIO mode is a scratched
or otherwise unreadable CD or DVD.
However, there are a few reasons why a computer may use PIO instead of DMA,
particularly when it's the hard disk port that falls back, not a CD/DVD drive
port. For example, David Duberman reported in 2005 that some Dell computers have
DMA disabled in their BIOS by default for the second hard disk. So it is a good
idea to check the BIOS settings first.
Other reasons can show up in the event log, so check this first and see if you
can find repeated Atapi errors recorded. If so, you likely have a hardware
defect. You can use the procedure described below, but your computer will
probably fall back to PIO mode again and again, until you solve the underlying
problem, which may be located inside the device, on the motherboard, or in the
IDE data cable and its connectors.
The trap
Windows contains a trap in which quite a few computers seem to get caught sooner
or later. The trap was described in a Web article whose link no longer works
(and also in another one mentioned below):
The crucial paragraphs are:
PIO mode is enabled by default in the following situations:
...
For repeated DMA errors. Windows XP will turn off DMA mode for a device after
encountering certain errors during data transfer operations. If more that six
DMA transfer timeouts occur, Windows will turn off DMA and use only PIO mode
on that device.
In this case, the user cannot turn on DMA for this device. The only option for
the user who wants to enable DMA mode is to uninstall and reinstall the
device.
Windows XP downgrades the Ultra DMA transfer mode after receiving more than
six CRC errors. Whenever possible, the operating system will step down one
UDMA mode at a time (from UDMA mode 4 to UDMA mode 3, and so on).
...
Of course, drive firmware being quite complex and certainly containing
programming defects of its own, it is not all that difficult to produce such
errors. In my case a scratched DVD and later also an unreadable (overburned) CD
did the trick, got the drive to choke and Windows to disable DMA for good. Later
my hard disk hiccupped just once and also went back to PIO for good.
I had been using my laptop for DVD viewing for years, until I inserted a
borrowed and heavily scratched DVD. The player and apparently even the DVD drive
choked on it, and when I finally got the DVD to play, I found that playing was
jerky and processor load was 100%, roughly half of which was system overhead.
This indicated that the drive had reverted from the usual UDMA (Ultra Direct
Memory Access) mode 2 to PIO (Programmed Input Output) mode. No amount of
resetting or changing the relevant registry parameters from 1 (try DMA) to 2
(force DMA) helped. Stubbornly the drive kept using PIO mode, and Windows even
changed these settings back to 0 (use PIO only).
The following text will refer to the secondary IDE port because that is more
often affected, but essentially the same also holds for the primary IDE port, to
which the main hard disk is connected in most computers.
Before you begin to work on the problem, log on as Administrator or as a user
with administrator rights.
Check Your IDE Port Mode
First check what mode your secondary IDE port is currently working in. Go to
Device Manager: right-click on My Computer, select Properties, click on the
Hardware tag, click on the Device Manager button, click on the plus sign to the
left of IDE ATA/ATAPI Controller, double-click on the secondary IDE channel,
click on Extended Settings and check whether it is set to DMA when available.
Directly underneath that setting is a grey field that shows the actual working
mode of your IDE channel. You want the highest possible DMA or Ultra DMA mode
there, and you definitely don't want PIO mode.
Normally you don't have to use the registry editor for this, because the normal
settings are also available through the properties dialog for the IDE port, but
if you want to look at it anyway, the parameter for the secondary IDE port can
be found through regedit.exe at
HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\HARDWARE\DEVICEMAP\Scsi\Scsi Port 1
It is named Scsi only for historic reasons. Scsi Port 0 is the primary IDE port,
to which presumably your hard disk is connected.
After trying various remedies—in vain—I found the abovementioned article and
went to work again. I uninstalled the DVD drive in Device Manager and rebooted,
but that did not help either.
So I searched for more and better information, then I went on and did the
following.
Re-enable DMA using the Registry Editor
My thanks go to my fellow MVP Alexander Grigoriev who taught me this method.
Run REGEDIT. Go to the following key:
HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\Contro l\Class\{4D36E96A-E325-11CE-BFC1-08002BE10318}
It has subkeys like 0000, 0001, 0002, etc. Normally 0001 is the primary IDE
channel, 0002 the secondary, but other numbers can occur under certain
circumstances. You have to go through these subkeys and check the DriverDesc
value until you find the proper IDE channel.
Delete MasterIdDataChecksum or SlaveIdDataChecksum, depending on whether the
device in question is attached as master or slave, but it can't actually hurt to
delete both. Reboot. The drive DMA capabilities will be redetected.
Open Device Manager again and check whether the device is now actually using DMA
mode. If so, congratulations, you've made it (at least until the next time
Windows disables DMA).
2005-10-24 – Tomáš Souček wrote, if this doesn't work, check also the dword
value MasterDeviceTimingModeAllowed, whose default value is hex 0xFFFFFFFF. If
you have a much smaller value, you can try to set it back to its default and
reboot for a test.
Alternative Method—Uninstalling the Port
1. Uninstall the secondary IDE port
To do that, open Device Manager as follows. Right-click on My Computer, select
Properties, click on the Hardware tag, click on the Device Manager button, click
on the plus sign to the left of IDE ATA/ATAPI Controller, right-click on
Secondary IDE Channel, click on Uninstall. Deactivating is not enough.
Reboot to make the changes active and permanent.
After booting Windows will automatically reinstall the IDE channel and the DVD
(or CD) drive. This Plug-n-Play process can take a little while, so give it a
minute after the boot process finishes.
2. Reactivate DMA
But this is not enough, because unfortunately Windows does not automatically
activate DMA on a DVD or CD drive. You have to tell Windows to try to use DMA
first.
For that, go to Device Manager again. Right-click on My Computer, select
Properties, click on the Hardware tag, click on the Device Manager button, click
on the plus sign to the left of IDE ATA/ATAPI Controller, double-click on the
secondary IDE channel, click on Extended Settings and change the relevant
setting from PIO only to DMA when available.
On Windows NT and 2000 you now have to reboot a second time, but Windows XP
applies the change instantly. Then you can go to the same place in Device
Manager again and check whether the device is now actually using DMA mode. If
so, all is well.
3. Driver is not intended for this platform
If you keep getting the following error message:
There is a problem installing this hardware.
IDE channel
An error occurred during the installation of the device. Driver is not
intended for this platform.
2005-03-30 – Johannes B. wrote: The reason for this error is often that Daemon
Tools or Alcohol 120% are installed. In this case the solution described below
would not work. But when you uninstall these programs and then restart Windows,
it will then install the device drivers without any further problems.
If these programs are not installed, then one possible way out is to rename
C:\WINDOWS\system32\drivers\atapi.sys (or a similar path on your computer) to
something like atapi.old.
If that's not possible, you can try it from the repair console (boot from the
Windows install CD and select the repair console).
If Windows always automatically recreates atapi.sys, you can try renaming it in
safe mode or from a command line window or you can try to rename or remove it in
the driver cache as well.
Desensitize Your Computer's IDE Channels
There's a bit more to it. The following article offers a way to reduce the
incidence of this problem, although it still doesn't solve it altogether.
IDE ATA and ATAPI Disks Use PIO Mode After Multiple Time-Out or CRC Errors Occur
http://support.microsoft.com/kb/817472/
Do read this article because it contains a useful long-term workaround. But you
have to go through the procedure described here to re-enable DMA first. Assuming
you've done that, insert the ResetErrorCountersOnSuccess registry values
mentioned in this article into both the primary and the secondary IDE port
registry keys as described.
Unfortunately this is only a half solution, because when you enter an unreadable
DVD, you will get 6 errors in a row, and the IDE channel will revert to PIO
mode, but at least when you pull out the DVD in time and then insert a good one,
the error counter will be reset and it will at least be a bit more difficult for
Windows to hobble your IDE drive.

[Seeker47]

if you really need to try to get that one back to working, re-install all the drivers. start with flashing the motherboard bios, reset the bios to safe mode, make any performance changes to the bios, then install the motherboard inf's, and work out from there. but again i think if you are going to do all that work anyway the best bet would be a fresh os install.

weeks sounds a little long. 2 days(about half of it unattended) is about as long as it's ever taken me to get a new machine built and running to replace an old one. i do use XPpro slipstreamed with the latest sp. it does save on endless M$ updates and reboots.

The situation I mentioned in this thread was the precursor, and this thread
https://forum.videohelp.com/topic355034.html#1909542
is what seems to be the outcome . . . and here's hoping it stays that way. I did not have to redo it all from zero, or anything close to it. I did wind up reinstalling several drivers, but it was not quite on the level of rebuilding the base of a tall building without disturbing the upper stories, which I had envisioned.

I do appreciate the various advice you all contributed. Thanks to All. The standard Windows mantra of "NO Cure But to Redo EVERYTHING From Scratch" is just completely unacceptable though (!!!), and I suspect frequently wrong or unnecessary. (Can you imagine putting in the all time and effort to do that, but having it STILL not fix the problem ? Shivers up the spine, Xanax and Pepto-Bismol time.) The one exception might be your slipstreaming idea. That has to make a HUGE difference. According to the intro on that "Unattended Windows" site, it IS possible to include not only all the MS updates, but most of your installed app.s, your desktop, and own set of customizations for it all. That is going onto my list of Next Big Projects. If a reinstall can be reduced to putting a CD or DVD into the tray and walking away, then coming back 40 minutes later to find that you're now back fully up and running with not much else to do, that would remove most of my objection.

But I'd still think Windows really sux.

[Krispy Kritter]

Should be only two reboots for a new XP install. Install the OS from your CD, then install SP3. It will then reboot and there will be another set of updates and it will reboot again. All up to date.

System Restore is the M$ way of "going back". Aside from that, you would need to use a backup software or an app such as Norton Ghost to create a hardware image. Then whenever you have issue, you simply reinstall with your Ghost image and you are back to the state your PC was in when you created the image.

[Seeker47]

Should be only two reboots for a new XP install. Install the OS from your CD, then install SP3. It will then reboot and there will be another set of updates and it will reboot again. All up to date.

System Restore is the M$ way of "going back". Aside from that, you would need to use a backup software or an app such as Norton Ghost to create a hardware image. Then whenever you have issue, you simply reinstall with your Ghost image and you are back to the state your PC was in when you created the image.

It sounds like you missed the history in these threads. I'm an old hand at imaging, but it would not have been a solution in this situation, where I had to replace a MB. (Supposedly the same rev. of the same board, but not "same" enough I guess. Everything went to hell after that.) I hope you're not referring to the MS Recovery Console, or whatever they call that 'effin disaster; I've heard it called the "MS Funeral Wreath", and after my few experiences with it, I can understand why.

[EDIT: This is W2K I was posting about. We don't have System Restore Points. You need an outboard utility like ERUNT for that, but it wouldn't have helped in this case either. The hardware was not accepted as being the same.]

My hope is that this slipstreaming business can overcome at least some degree of hardware change, because it goes on like a fresh install. Only with all or most of your installed apps and all or most of your user settings intact. At least, that is a claim I have read for it.

[citanool]

Maybe this is your problem: Windows Problem Solver: DMA reverts to PIO?? Will reset Windows to use DMA instead of PIO which can happen even after manually trying to fix yourself. Have used it atleast twice to fix the problem that shows up out of nowhere. Have also had IDE and Power cables go bad, and some drive combinations just don't work together well or at all.

[Krispy Kritter]

"Slipstreaming" typically refers to creating a bootdisk with your OS, all available updates, and sometimes drivers onto a single disc. Pretty much like having the latest disc from M$ with all of the current updates on the disc. I've seen a few that also included various software, but they simply installed the software and not any personal settings. I've never seen a disc that was basically an image of your current setup but then essentially intalls fresh. I would suspect it is possible with a little trial and error by finding all of the necessary lines in the registry, putting them a file, and importing it.

[Seeker47]

Maybe this is your problem: Windows Problem Solver: DMA reverts to PIO?? Will reset Windows to use DMA instead of PIO which can happen even after manually trying to fix yourself. Have used it atleast twice to fix the problem that shows up out of nowhere. Have also had IDE and Power cables go bad, and some drive combinations just don't work together well or at all.

Thanks. I had printed that one out, and skimmed it. Looks like it would be helpful in the right situation. Never got so far as to try out their advice -- or a few others -- because I was able to rectify the main problem on my own. Still a couple lesser non-DMA issues to resolve, before the system is back to where it was pre-disaster. As noted earlier, and suggested by the descriptions in these different articles, the PIO problem may have a few ways of being triggered. You have to find the solution that applies in your particular case. Replacing cables etc. won't accomplish much, if there was nothing actually wrong with any of the hardware -- as seems to have applied in my case. Ditto for re-jiggering the Registry, something I also did not need to do. At least not yet . . . .