I'm thinking of upgrading my cheap Sony SLV-N750 to an SVHS with TBC. From reading old posts, it seems that almost everyone is fond of the JVC 9000 series, but they're obviously not available anymore. So, does anybody have any recommendations from what's currently available? What are some good prosumer SVHS VCRs available in today's market?
I would prefer a brand new item as opposed to an open box or used item...
As always, any help is very much appreciated.
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Funny how these types of inquiry come in batches: I think this is the third thread this week I've replied to on this topic. Perhaps there's a new wave of people just starting to convert their VHS libraries? Anyway...
Many of us have found great success using the less-known, less-popular "D-VHS" recorders which were originally designed to record digital HDTV. Most of them will play standard VHS and SVHS beautifully, in some cases better than what you can achieve with the older SVHS models (the DVHS units are much newer with updated TBC/DNR to optimize display of regular VHS on big, flat-panel televisions, or into DVD encoders.)
I have posted several times about the Mitsubishi HS-HD2000U DVHS, which I am very happy with. It has killer TBC and DNR circuits, and adjustable/defeatable sharpness control. It cleans up chroma noise and cable TV garbage noise on my VHS tapes like you wouldn't believe. Incredible machine, sells for $150-$400 depending on used/new and how much demand there is the day you want to buy one. The JVC SR-VD400 DVHS is reported to be just as good and sells in the same price range. Either unit is available new, or if used is likely to be in better shape than one of the older recommended JVC SVHS decks. -
Buy used, buy refurb. "New" isn't always the best option.
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Not all new devices are built as solid as older ones. Certain tech is also dubbed "obsolete" but nothing better ever actually replaced it (example: ATI All In Wonder Radeon cards, or JVC 7000 and 9000 series VCRs)
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it seems that almost everyone is fond of the JVC 9000 series
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I have both Panny 1980 & JVC 7900, 9800. Panny has the edge on colors being vivid. But JVC has the edge on clarity & crisp. Its a preference choice.....
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Originally Posted by StuR
The JVC 9000 and 7000 VCRs have a nice TBC, but the mandatory DNR that comes along with it softens the image and introduces artifacts. Nevertheless, it can sometimes work wonders on restoring marginal recordings.
For preservation of good recordings, my Panasonic AG-1970 reproduces what's on tape better than any VCR I have ever owned. No excessive filtering, temporal or otherwise. The Hue and Saturation are spot on. I have also found the TBC to be as effective as the JVC on my tapes, some of which contain significant step errors that external TBCs do not correct.
In my case, the Panasonic image is simply more stable, more detailed, and more authentic.Life is better when you focus on the signals instead of the noise. -
not me, prefer the panasonic SVHS with TBC NR
...and thanks everybody for your feedback. -
If you can afford two decks or come across a really good bargain, a Panasonic 1980 or even 1970 can be an excellent backup deck for use with tapes that have issues on a JVC: a Panny will often allow TBC/DNR use on the minority of tapes that make a JVC choke. But they tend to disappoint as primary playback decks: if you have more than a few dozen tapes, sooner or later you'll need the JVC.
I would agree that JVCs decision to permanently couple their DNR and TBC features together is sometimes annoying and self-defeating. However the preference davideck and stuR have expressed for Panasonic units with TBC should not be taken as an absolute, totally 100% equivalent alternative. I would *strongly* advise if you opt for a second-hand AG-1980 that you be certain it has a return policy and you try your most problematic tapes on it immediately to be sure it will work for you in ways that are useful. (I would not recommend a 1970 at all, these days it isn't going for all that much less than a 1980 and if you're going to bother with Panasonic AGs at all for transfer work, the 1980 is by far the preferred model.)
The Panasonics look good on paper: built like tanks, diamond-hard Amorphous Metal heads, and their TBC can be activated independently of their DNR (which has a nice variable level slider). But in practice, they are only really useful for playing true SVHS recordings made on SVHS tapes. These are semi-pro decks optimized for SVHS editing. Unfortunately like every other deck of the 1990s by almost all mfrs, they utterly stink on ice at plain ordinary VHS playback: grainy or undefined base image with chroma noise, which is somewhat cleaned up when their TBC/DNR circuits are turned on. They work well enough on really clean VHS from the studios, but for the typical self-recorded VHS from cable or OA they ain't so hot.
By no means am I a Panasonic basher: when it comes to VCRs I generally loathe JVCs for a number of reliability reasons based on 20 years of experience using them, while I have never ever had a Panasonic break down or chew a tape. So I spent a bloody fortune on several Panasonic AG1970s and AG1980s a few years ago when they were fetching outrageous prices, hoping against hope they would free me from the JVC "VHS digitizing monopoly". No such luck: for the majority of non-SVHS tapes I have (and I have 2600+) the Panasonics proved a distant second in playback-to-digital compared to my JVC.
The moral is, some of the advice repeated like a mantra on this forum (like "use a JVC for VHS-to-DVD") is actually near 100% accurate for the situations most of us will encounter. I have very bad luck with JVC mechanically, so I'm not thrilled they are pretty much the only choice for this specific task, but the fact remains they're the only game in town. (Unless you can get your hands on a Mitsubishi HS-HD2000U D-VHS: I came across one of these last year and they have the identical TBC/DNR as JVC but in a much more "solid" chassis. Other than this sole Mitsubishi model, only JVC has the souped-up TBC/DNR combo that works wonders during digital transfers).
If you don't have time or patience to experiment, the safest course is a JVC SVHS (or more recent DVHS), or if you can find one a Mitsubishi HS-HD2000u. Keep a second good-quality non-JVC, non-TBC/DNR vcr around as a backup deck for those times the JVC can't handle an odd tape: a stable picture with some noise from an ordinary deck is better than nothing, and sometimes the best you can achieve. Consumer VHS recordings have many variables to them, here and there you run into one that will play unwatchably on a fancy JVC or Panasonic but will strangely be manageable using an old Quasar or Sharp vcr. If you have a large VHS colection you may need more than one tool. -
I'm not all that impressed by the Panasonic S-VHS machines, the AG-19xx models. Sure, they're not bad at all, but the JVC tends to outperform them in terms of "cleaning up" a video.
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Are you referring to the AG 1970/1980's?
(1980/70 are a sort of all black design, JVC's are more the later silvery style)
Anyway I see very little chance of Panasonic developing completely different SVHS, TBC... systems so there likely to be generally the same.
Mines a Pan HS 860 which has 3DNR a later addition to the Pan VCR's, I've never heard of a US model similar.
Mines got a TBC which Panasonic say is full frame (It may be field/half frame though as Customer Service could be wrong) the 1980 is full and the 1970 is field. Bother are wider than JVC it seems, the 1980/70 have soft/sharp sliders which are useful to use as NR.
Personally I have no axe to grind and I don't care who it's made by as long as it works. i.e. I could have saved time by just getting a JVC DVDRW/HDD to begin with (as recommended here for VHS dubbing) and so just trying to pass on my experience to save someone else some hassle.
There seems to be a problem with the availablity of good used 1980/70. Sadly since posting about the newer SVHS Pan's like mine their price has almost doubled on ebay, so sometimes it's best to keep your mouth shut
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They appear to be about the same, but the JVC is a latter version (and generally accepted to be the high quality version). Remember that Matsushita owns both Panasonic and JVC these days.
"Personally I have no axe to grind and I don't care who it's made by as long as it works" is pretty much my take on things too.Want my help? Ask here! (not via PM!)
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The Panasonic AG-1970 and 1980 date from a period when Panasonic industrial AG units had NOTHING in common with similar models from JVC. Neither the TBC nor the DNR on the Pannys is like the corresponding JVC circuits.
We tend to go off on tangents here and forget what all these units were originally designed to do: they were not purpose-built to make digital transfers, they were purpose-built to record and edit SVHS tapes, with the emphasis on SVHS as opposed to plain ordinary VHS. As a result, their performance varies with the tapes played back and with the digital encoders they are feeding.
The AG1970 used a very early built-in TBC/DNR design based on one which had been used previously on a number of high-end Panny consumer desks. It was amazing for its time but lags significantly in cleanup performance for digital. It is a nice backup deck to have if found in good condition for a good price but they are very old units now and most are pretty beat up. They usually need adjustment to bring HiFi tracking back up to standard. Once serviced, a 1970 will last your lifetime, they are extremely well built with a very rugged transport and tape heads. But they are emphatically NOT the best first choice for digital transfers: their actual playback of the *non* SVHS tapes 99 out of 100 people really need to digitize is not great: adequate without the TBC/DNR active, and adequate with some added smoothness and color clarity with TBC/DNR turned on. The word to remember here is adequate playback, not exceptional.
The AG1980 added a much-improved TBC/DNR circuit, kept the same chassis design, but has much-cheapened internals. The mechanicals, electronics and power supply in the 1980 all had teething issues and many semi-pro users pulled their hair out dealing with them. A 1980 is not nearly as sturdy as a 1970, the only advantage it has is a much better TBC/DNR which on a MINT, *properly functioning* 1980 will operate at close to JVC 9000 level for digitizing- but not quite. It has been known to slog thru tapes that give the JVC fits, and the circuits on the 1980 are indeed much more "neutral" than the JVC, the colors are not as over-saturated or slightly altered as the JVC presentation, so if you can lay hands on a *good* 1980 it is definitely worth having as backup to a JVC.
That being said, good luck finding a properly functioning mint AG1980. They were built worth sh*t, Panasonic was very sloppy with this one and it was a horrendously overpriced unit when new ($1199 in 1997 at B&H if they were feeling generous, usually went for more). The primary source for second-hand units is the pros who bought them and worked them to death. You might think a lot of well-heeled hobbyists could have bought these and babied them but you'd be wrong: the 1970 and 1980 were severely lacking in cabinet appeal, remote functionality and easy onscreen displays compared to the Panny consumer models and they were more than DOUBLE the price with very limited retail exposure. Trust me, there ain't too many 1970s or 1980s on eBay that were "driven by a little old lady in Pasadena": they were workhorses. If you"re very lucky, and do snag a mint one, they can be quite useful decks BUT overall, for the majority of average, borderline-crummy non-SVHS tapes that most of us need to digitize a JVC will leave a 1980 in the dust. I have experimented plenty with all the variations to get to these conclusions, and I am not partial to either brand: they both have had enough major screw-ups and lack of regard for consumers to neutralize any preference.
In the end, for most plain VHS tapes connected to most DVD recorders or PC encoding cards, a JVC will clear up more problems more noticeably than an AG1980. The JVCs have a larger TBC buffer with more advanced noise and chroma processing. For those who have a mix of studio tapes, off-air, and off-cable tapes its no contest: JVC wins. Not to say they are perfect every time: they aren't. The noise reduction cannot be switched out and often makes soft tapes even softer-looking, the TBC often oversaturates colors or alters the hue slightly. One out of ten tapes just won't digitize right because of this, and you will need a backup deck for those tapes. Most of us use a cheap consumer deck, but if you are picky and can afford it this is a perfect supporting role for an AG1970 or 1980.
Finally, a distinction does need to be made that I am discussing North America-spec Panasonics. Our members from Europe are using PAL-spec Panasonics, and most comparisons I've heard of say the PAL-spec Panasonics perform rather better than the NTSC versions. If you are in Europe, Panasonic AG1970-1980 could well be the better choice for you. It is also important to note Matsushita began rebadging JVC models as Panasonics quite a few years ago and they did it first in Europe/Asia. So if you are outside the US, and you have a Panasonic with TBC/DNR that also features "3D comb filter, Y/C noise compensator" etc, you may in fact have a JVC under the Panasonic hood which is why you can't understand what all the fuss is about.
The luckiest people out there are the ones who used SVHS exclusively for their old recordings: virtually any TBC/DNR recorder mentioned in these forums will make SVHS look fantastic, even the oldest Panny 1970. These machines were all optimized for SVHS performance and it shows: only when you press them to clean up regular VHS do they stumble and begin to show differences. -
I cant fathom why people would prefer the Panasonic AG-1970-1980 over the JVC 9000 models. Ive used both. To me, hands down picture quality wise the JVC units are much better and they do provide accurate color and crispness. I dont know why someone would say they dont. I hope you are using good s-video cables. It is true though that the Panasonic's stabilize the picture much better then the JVC units. I also disagree with anyone who thinks that the JVC's TBC/DNR softens the picture. Unless you are looking at your tv with a magnifying glass, you arent gonna notice any softness, just a more cleaner picture then the source. And lets not forget that VHS is soft in the first place. But still, these decks are constantly mentioned on here because they are the best for DVD transferring.
Thats the bottom line. I only wonder if the Mitsu stabilizes tapes better then the JVC, Orsetto? If thats the case, I will be buying one in the future. -
The JVC 7000 and 9000 VCRs are good for restoration. They have the more aggressive TBC/DNR, along with the associated artifacts. On my VHS and SVHS tapes, they also produce softer images than my other JVC VCRs or AG-1970.
The Panasonic AG-19XX VCRs are good for the preservation of the original video signal. They have the better transport and signal system. On my VHS and SVHS tapes, they reproduce more detail than my JVC 7600 or 9600, along with the associated noise.
Overall, I prefer the performance of the Panasonic AG-1970 to the JVC 9600 or 7600, particularly for my 20 year old VHS Camcorder tapes. But I'm a preservationist. My vision system can ignore random noise better than it can ignore correlated artifacts or imagine detail that has been lost.
My AG-1970 was an EBay bargain. I share the hesitation about buying used equipment, but I've also seen AG-19XXs in industrial environments where they are ready for use but almost never used. So they get beat up a bit on the outside, but are practically new inside. I got one of those. Sometimes you get lucky.Life is better when you focus on the signals instead of the noise. -
Use caution if deciding to purchase a used or older VCR. Make sure it has been serviced. The tape heads, belts, etc. could all be worn. You don't know how many hours of playback it had. The JVC DNR is not mandatory. You can turn it off by setting the DNR option to "EDIT" mode. I've been using this mode for most tapes. The "auto" mode is a little too soft one some tapes and makes people have a plastic look. You can still buy new JVC decks with the adjustable DNR functions(soft, sharp, auto, edit) and line-TBC. Here is a digital deck a friend bought recently. I find it's output just as good as my JVC 9911u.
JVC SR-VD400US
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/285082-REG/JVC_SRVD400US_SR_VD400US_Pro_HD_D_VHS...er_Player.html
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deuce8pro said:
I only wonder if the Mitsu stabilizes tapes better then the JVC, Orsetto? If thats the case, I will be buying one in the future.
It does suffer similar issues as a JVC, however: neither presents ancient LP or SLP or other tracking-challenged VHS very well, in these cases both JVC and Mitsu TBC/DNR may intermittently act up with artifacts such as a split-second hue shift or added dropout-like luminance noise. A lot depends on what DVD recorder or capture card you are feeding from these VCRs, some interact with the TBC/DNR for better or worse. In most cases of poor interaction, turning off the TBC/DNR on the vcr will instantly clear up those issues and give you a stable (but noisier) signal thru your encoder. Such are the situations where an older Panasonic 1970 or 1980 *might* be able to salvage a clearer picture using their less-aggressive TBC/DNR. But this is a very big maybe: the Pannys have issues of their own with sound tracking and video noise. After months playing around with all the combinations, I settled on using either an old Quasar (by Panasonic) or old Sharp consumer VCR to play the tapes that have problems on high-end JVC or Mitsubishi. (To my eye the benefits of the TBC/DNR of the AG1970/1980 are outweighed by their often very middling-to-noisy video performance during regular VHS playback. These machines are killer SVHS players but disappointing VHS players.)
My preference for the Mitsu 2000 primarily comes from a lifetime of rotten luck with JVC vcrs: I have never had one work properly for more than a month before damaging my tapes. New, used, whatever: none of them could be relied on with certainty. I am not saying this to flame JVC lovers, just note that for every brand there is a spectrum of experience: I just fare badly with JVC while many others never report a single mechanical problem. A year ago I took a chance on the Mitsu 2000 when they were being dumped by every internet outlet for hundreds below cost, they retailed in 2004 for $700 but I picked one up for about $150 new-in-box last winter. I put it to the test with every torture tape I had and it passed with flying colors, totally clearing up some of my poorest cable recordings even better than my rather flaky JVC 9911. Having owned many Mitsu vcrs in the past I was surprised: they always had the most responsive, gentlest transports but did not have especially good record/playback quality. This one-off Mitsu model HS-HD2000u melds the great, reliable Mitsu tape transport with the phenomenal TBC/DNR performance of a JVC. I grabbed a couple more at that fire-sale price last year, but they have since regained value in the wake of revived interest in DVHS-HDTV recording and are now finally in demand after failing spectacularly when they were actively marketed a couple years ago. Go figure.
Anyway I recommend the MGA 2000 to anyone who needs JVC 9000 performance but can't find or doesn't want a JVC. The MGA can usually be found used in mint condition for $150 or so if you monitor eBay or Craigs List for a week or two. My two have never given me a minutes grief after hundreds of transfers, they run like a top, so I've never needed to open the third "backup" unit I keep in reserve. -
Just a quick note on the topic after a scan of the replies, my Panasonic SVHS and JVC digipure are definatly different inside, based on just looking with the top off and their abilities to deal with various bad bits on various bad tapes. Even with the Edit setting on JVC digipure (esp. TBC on) the picture is softened which good for many a VHS tape, for Panasonic you need to have one with a Picture Control, Soft option or a Soft/Sharp slider. Someone mentioned that Pan are better for SVHS and not VHS for this reason. The Soft setting cuts the crispening circuit and smoothes the grain. If you don't use Soft on a pan SVHS use a PC NR filter after for better results again.
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I think a lot of this is imagined, or skwed by a machine that oversharpens. The Panasonic does oversharpening. I think it also has an issue with contrast and color clarity (transparency to source palette). The JVC is not soft. This was compared in a thread long ago. Several VCRs were shown. The JVC had the cleanest image, along with another one (it was either Mitsubishi or Sony), with no softening.
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Here is a good comparison;
https://forum.videohelp.com/topic328283.htmlLife is better when you focus on the signals instead of the noise. -
WOW, thanks for all of the responses everybody. That was a lot of information. I'm actually in the US and I all of my videos are NTSC. This is definitely going to be a difficult choice. I mostly prefer a new or mint SVHS, but since they are so rare in those conditions, I might end up having to turn to DVHS. For now, I'll do some more researching and hopefully I can find a place that will rent out a variety of these machines for me to test drive and experiment with to see which one gives me the best results. Unfortunately, I currently don't have the funding available to purchase more than one VCR.
If anybody has any more comments or recommendations, feel free to post.
Thanks again... -
Originally Posted by davideckWant my help? Ask here! (not via PM!)
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I think the best deck to use for VHS transfers would combine the time based correction performance of the Panasonic svhs decks with the digital noise reduction filters of the later JVC 9000 decks.
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Originally Posted by deuce8pro
Course if they actually made this, being a niche product in the current economy it would likely cost upwards of $1200! -
Originally Posted by deuce8proOriginally Posted by deuce8pro
A good deck for you might be a Panasonic AG-19XX transport with a JVC 9000 TBC/DNR.Life is better when you focus on the signals instead of the noise. -
Originally Posted by deuce8pro
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Originally Posted by davideckWant my help? Ask here! (not via PM!)
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A Panasonic AG-19XX VCR fed through a JVC DVD Recorder (with its input NR) would be a close approximation.
Life is better when you focus on the signals instead of the noise. -
Nah, the JVC S-VHS and DVD behave slightly different. Both good, but not the same. The latter does not remove grain as well as the VCR.
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