Need specific advice on MacBook-based video editing before buying a laptop!

[psychotronicfilms]

Hi.

I haven't used these forums in ages, and I sincerely hope I am posting this in the correct section.

I run a non-profit community film society which legally screens all manner of arthouse films, both foreign and domestic, in a 50-seat coffeehouse space. We use video projection and source all titles off factory-pressed DVDs or (in the case of films which must be transferred from the PAL or SECAM formats to NTSC before screening) DVD-Rs.

I negotiate the public performance rights with various filmmakers and distributors before showing these titles, so everything is legit and by the book.

Occasionally, we show older, public domain titles as part of our series, which brings me to my question:

In order to give our audiences more of an old-school, drive-in movie experience, I would like to start adding vintage public domain trailers, concession-booth ads and other campy shorts before these public domain features. The idea is to give the folks something memorable and/or funny to watch while they're being seated.

In order to do this, I would need to find a way to A) transfer at least 15 minutes' worth of such short subjects off of old VHS tapes, and/or DVD-Rs onto a computer hard drive in extremely high audio/video quality, and then smoothly edit them together along with a feature film (which would likely run between 80 and 120 minutes). Then, I'd burn the whole thing off in extremely high resolution to a master DVD-R, and sue that as my source "print" at the screening.

I've been planning on buying a MacBook Pro with a SuperDrive DVD burner for some time now, and friends have told me that the latest version of iMovie (or iDVD, I can't recall which) is very easy to use for such basic non-linear editing (simple cuts, dissolves and fade ins/out, etc...).

My question is this: Since these programs seem mainly geared toward folks who want to edit their own camcorder footage, would either of those programs allow me to "load in" a full, feature length film -- provided it was not encoded with any sort of copy-protection -- and then manipulate it in the way I have described, before spitting it back out again with little to no degradation in A/V quality?

If not, what program would you suggest that would seamlessly interface with the latest Mac OS and the amount of memory and burning capabilities that come standard with most MacBook Pro models?

I'm sorry of this is too vague a question. It's just that I'm not sure exactly how to approach this conundrum. I need a laptop for work anyway, am dead set on a Mac, but need to make sure that if I purchase such a computer, that I will also be able to perform these tasks with ease on the same unit.

I welcome any direction on this, as long as it takes into account my desire to limit myself to the Mac platform. If there is a better place on these forums for this question to be posted, please advise and I'll gladly move it there.

Thanks in advance for your kind responses.

Best,
Jim

[redwudz]

You can't move your own posts, but I can. Moving you to our Mac Forum where you may get more specific Mac information.

And are you aware of: http://www.archive.org/details/movies They have public domain videos like old air raid public info spots and also there are links there to similar sites. Another is: http://www.loc.gov/film/arch.html

A favorite from archive.org: http://www.archive.org/details/cliche_family

[terryj]

Ok, Let's take this one by the numbers:

Hi.

I haven't used these forums in ages, and I sincerely hope I am posting this in the correct section.

I run a non-profit community film society which legally screens all manner of arthouse films, both foreign and domestic, in a 50-seat coffeehouse space. We use video projection and source all titles off factory-pressed DVDs or (in the case of films which must be transferred from the PAL or SECAM formats to NTSC before screening) DVD-Rs.

I negotiate the public performance rights with various filmmakers and distributors before showing these titles, so everything is legit and by the book.

Hello, glad to meet you, and welcome to our corner of the forum.

Occasionally, we show older, public domain titles as part of our series, which brings me to my question:

In order to give our audiences more of an old-school, drive-in movie experience, I would like to start adding vintage public domain trailers, concession-booth ads and other campy shorts before these public domain features. The idea is to give the folks something memorable and/or funny to watch while they're being seated.

In order to do this, I would need to find a way to A) transfer at least 15 minutes' worth of such short subjects off of old VHS tapes, and/or DVD-Rs onto a computer hard drive in extremely high audio/video quality, and then smoothly edit them together along with a feature film (which would likely run between 80 and 120 minutes). Then, I'd burn the whole thing off in extremely high resolution to a master DVD-R, and use that as my source "print" at the screening.

I've been planning on buying a MacBook Pro with a SuperDrive DVD burner for some time now, and friends have told me that the latest version of iMovie (or iDVD, I can't recall which) is very easy to use for such basic non-linear editing (simple cuts, dissolves and fade ins/out, etc...).

My question is this: Since these programs seem mainly geared toward folks who want to edit their own camcorder footage, would either of those programs allow me to "load in" a full, feature length film -- provided it was not encoded with any sort of copy-protection -- and then manipulate it in the way I have described, before spitting it back out again with little to no degradation in A/V quality?

Answer #1:

Yes, you can "load in" a full length movie to a MacBook or a MacBook Pro with the aid of software.
If the source film, say is on disc (DVD-R) and does not contain copy protection, the natively in the
Macintosh finder you can copy the contents of the disc to your laptop's internal hard disc.

The iLife suite of Programs ( which include iDVD and iMovie) are very consumer friendly, and
can import video footage, in format's native to each program, which then allow the manipulation
of said footage as you please and then can be authored to a standard 2 hour DVD.

The footage from a "loaded in" DVD-R will be in Mpeg-2 format, which is a finalized
format, which does not allow for easy ( by this I mean simple out the box) editing
of this file type. Mpeg-2 is often best edited either by demuxing the footage
back into seperate elementary streams, of seperate audio of video, or better ( in the case
of a newbie) to be transcoded into an editable format, such as DV Stream, which
muxes, or flattens the footage, where it can be edited.

DV Stream will be what you want to import into iMovie to use to make your edits,
and then the finalized iMovie project will then hand off to iDVD to make your finalized
DVD. You will need one piece of software to help with this, this will be
MpegStreamclip, and a component that goes with it, the Quicktime Mpeg-2 component.
Cost of this will be $20, but to get DVD footage into an editing format for iMovie,
which is free on any mac, it is indispensable.

Answer #2:

Now, here is a problem that you will run into:
When My footage exceeds 2 hours, including edits and trailer footage, how will I get that to
a DVD-R?

The answer is you will need to take your iMovie footage, Export it to iDVD, and then
burn the project to a Dual Layer DVD Disc, or DVD-9 as we often call it,
to enable it to be at the best quality on DVD.

The new IDVD has no limitations as the old one did in regards to 2hours being the maximum
you could burn to disc. So, that would just require an investment in blank media.
Verbatim Dual Layer DVD+R's are the best in this regard.

If not, what program would you suggest that would seamlessly interface with the latest Mac OS and the amount of memory and burning capabilities that come standard with most MacBook Pro models?

I'm sorry of this is too vague a question. It's just that I'm not sure exactly how to approach this conundrum. I need a laptop for work anyway, am dead set on a Mac, but need to make sure that if I purchase such a computer, that I will also be able to perform these tasks with ease on the same unit.

Answer #3:

For what your trying to do, with a novice level of expertise in video editing, the iLife suite of applications can do what
you describe needing to get done. These come direct with any new purchased Mac laptop or desktop.
MpegStreamclip can be downloaded from the maker's website, and the Quicktime Mpeg-2 component,
which it needs to help it transcode the DVD's Mpeg-2 footage into DV Stream format, is
the only software you'll need to purchase. Then, you simply purchase DVD-9 Blanks for larger than
2 hour projects, and standard DVD-5 blanks for the under 2 hour projects, and your set.

Any Macbook or Macbook Pro shipping with a Superdrive, at least 2GB of Ram and a large HD (160GB or higher) would be my recommendation.
(2 hours of video equals 26GB of space used. Add in trailers, you can average about 36GB for one movie.
Then double that as once it is transcoded and ingested into iMovie, you then have a copy of those files, or 72GB per movie)
The standard, walk right in and buy it off the shelf at any Apple Store Black Macbook shown here would be my choice if I was in your shoes. It meets the requirements I just outlined.


Also take into the fact you are going to use this for other tasks, and the cost of the machine will more than pay for itself
when you have it spec'd out high, as yes, you'll need the extra Ram, yes you'll need the extra HD space.

I welcome any direction on this, as long as it takes into account my desire to limit myself to the Mac platform. If there is a better place on these forums for this question to be posted, please advise and I'll gladly move it there.

Thanks in advance for your kind responses.

Best,
Jim

Your welcome Jim.
Post back w/ any other questions.

[Frobozz]

I appreciate your trying to find the greatest justification for buying a MacBook Pro but I'll just say go do it regardless of whether this idea works out. I will say that you won't need iMovie or iDVD because all you're wanting is to trim parts of videos you have on the computer and assemble them so they play consecutively. Using iMovie or iDVD may require lengthy re-encoding processes that will unnecessarily compromise quality. Using MPEG Streamclip and Popcorn 3 will accomplish what you want more easily.

I want to point out that the legal issues surrounding copying video from encrypted DVDs and VHS tapes to your computer are different from the legal issues of rights to show those videos to the public. While you have public performance rights I doubt you have the right to duplicate those videos by means of copying them to your computer's hard drive. Please discuss this with your legal advisor.

You also mention having to convert PAL and SECAM to NTSC before showing the video. I suggest getting a combination PAL/NTSC DVD player (I believe Philips makes an inexpensive one) and play the PAL DVDs without conversion to NTSC.

As for copying VHS tapes that don't have Macrovision encoding to your Mac, you can use a DV camcorder, and analog-to-digital capture device (such as those sold by Canopus and Miglia) or an EyeTV. The latter will capture in MPEG 2 format which makes it hard to use in iMovie but makes it faster to use with Popcorn 3 if you merely want to trim a few seconds here and there before making a DVD or a DVD disc image file.

You don't say why you want the MacBook Pro rather than the lower-cost MacBook. I chose the Pro because I do a lot of Photoshop work and need the dedicated graphics card. What you're wanting to do with video will work fine with a MacBook unless you wanted to get into movie making rather than just movie trimming.

[terryj]

I will say that you won't need iMovie or iDVD because all you're wanting is to trim parts of videos you have on the computer and assemble them so they play consecutively. Using iMovie or iDVD may require lengthy re-encoding processes that will unnecessarily compromise quality.

Jim, I just want to point out that:

1. We all have differences on what works and what doesn't here, so don't get discouraged if you hear several different answers.


2. I pointed you in the direction of iDVD and iMovie, because you stated you are new to working with video on the mac,
and your support system, ie. friends, are familiar with both programs. Video editing ( which includes "trimming") isn't
for the faint of heart, and having friends who can help you through rough spots will make it easier on you.
And, the programs are Free and available widely on any mac you purchase.

Aside from these things, I agree with my brother Frobozz on that if you are just limited to the tasks you asked about,
and light office work, a Macbook is fine for the job. But, if you are doing much more, say making flyers for your events,
managing a website, and trying to do video editing in the background, a MacBook Pro would be much more up
to all those tasks.

[Frobozz]

Jim, I was in a foul mood this morning and got on my high horse. terryj is a true expert on video and Macs and a great resource to everyone in this forum. What may work best for you is to try what Apple includes with the Mac. If that seems to cumbersome then ask here for alternatives.

[terryj]

it's ok brother.
We all need our morning coffee!

[psychotronicfilms]

Thanks everyone for the kind welcome and for the great and helpful detailed info and opinions.

Just to clarify:

The films I license directly from the rights holders will not be copied or have any sort of footage or trailers added to them (as per industry standard contractual agreements). The only films I'll be doing this with are the older titles which are firmly in the Public Domain.

The main reason I was looking at a MacBook Pro istead of the standard MacBook is that the slight difference between the 13.3" screen and the 15.4" means a lot to me.

I also pan to use the laptop for web design, some photoshop, and tinkering around withd podcasts, so I wante the extra space and memory- plus the metal case would seem to be a plus.

So, in everyone's opinion, which of these software choices mentioned would compromise the ultimate visual quality of the final, outputted DVD the LEAST, owing to compression artifiacts, etc...

In the end, all I really care about is that when my own DVD compilation of these different elements is projected on a 13' screen, that it will look as close to the source discs I used as possible.

Thanks!

- Jim

[Frobozz]

The key issue is whether you want simplicity and speed or whether you want creativity. With iMovie and iDVD there needs to be conversion of video formats to go from the editing stage (in DV format) to the video DVD stage (in MPEG 2 format). The benefit is that you get to take advantage of some cool transition and editing features of iMovie and the wonderful motion menu designs of iDVD. The disadvantage is you spend more time creating those projects and must wait for the MPEG encoding to be completed. It does, however, give the most professional look. You don't need to worry about creating DVDs, though, if you just connect the Mac to the video projector.

The simple and fast way to do this is to capture the video from the VHS tapes using a hardware MPEG 2 encoder (such as the EyeTV 250+) rather than a DV capture device. Since the video is already MPEG 2 encoded you save some time. But now you can't use iMovie or iDVD. Instead, you need to use EyeTV's software or MPEG Streamclip to trim any video segments you don't want. If you capture different videos you can only put them together as one file using a couple of applications. I think MPEG 2 Works can do this and so can CaptyMPEG Edit EX. You don't actually have o join the different videos as one file, though, if you use Popcorn 3 orToast 8 to burn those to a video DVD. Popcorn and Toast have a continuous play mode that automatically starts playing the next title when the previous one ends.

The first thing you need is a device for capturing the video in either DV or MPEG 2 format. You may also need a video stabilizer in the case that any of the VHS tapes have Macrovision. Otherwise the video may not be recorded.

If you go with a DV capture device then all you need is iMovie and iDVD. If you go with a MPEG 2 capture device then you will rarely use iMovie or iDVD because that would require multiple format conversions. In this case you would want to have MPEG Streamclip and either Popcorn 3 or Toast 8.

As for the quality of projecting a digitized VHS source video on a 13' screen, it's not going to look any better than when you connect the VHS player to the projector now. But as long as you are not trying to put more than 90 minutes of video on a DVD it should look no worse.

[psychotronicfilms]

Thanks for the follow-up.

To be clear, 90% of the source materials I would be importing to the Mac will be coming off of DVD-Rs without any form of copy protection.

I have a standalone Panasonic DVD-R recrder that I occasionally use to transfer older footage on tape to standard DVD-Rs, and that's how I've been dealing with tape to disc transfer up till now.

I already have an on-siite setup with a DVD player that's wired into the sound and projection system, so I'd rather use DVD-R discs to screen, rather than going though the hassle of plugging in the laptop at the venue.

So, it sounds like if I just want to do simple bump-editing of trailers, short subjects and feature-length films that will run no more than 2-hours in total, I could (and perhaps should) use Toast or Popcorn with ease, or if I want to take longer, but afford myself more options for classier transitions and post-production, I could go with the Mac-supplied iMovie or iDVD?

Is that what everyone is basically saying?

- Jim

[terryj]

basically you got it, Jim.

either way, you'll need MpegStreamclip and its QT Mpeg-2 component.

[Frobozz]

Thanks for the follow-up.

So, it sounds like if I just want to do simple bump-editing of trailers, short subjects and feature-length films that will run no more than 2-hours in total, I could (and perhaps should) use Toast or Popcorn with ease, or if I want to take longer, but afford myself more options for classier transitions and post-production, I could go with the Mac-supplied iMovie or iDVD?

Is that what everyone is basically saying?

- Jim

That's my advice. You already have the source videos in MPEG 2 format on your DVDs so it is best to keep them as they are. Unfortunately, Popcorn and Toast don't have any trimming capability which is why you'll need to open the videos (directly from the DVDs) in MPEG Streamclip in order to do any trimming. The trimmed videos are then saved by Streamclip as MPEG 2 files for Popcorn or Toast. If no trimming is needed then the titles can be extracted from the DVDs with Popcorn or Toast directly.

There also is an application called Cinematize that might interest you. Check it out at Miraizon.com. It's best for selecting segments of videos to extract from video DVDs either as MPEG files or conversion to formats that work in iMovie. So if you wanted to create your own movie trailer that's the application I'd recommend. You can do the same with Streamclip but it's a little more of a hassle.

Enjoy your MacBook Pro. I love having mine.

[brucejackson]

I would not capture to internal drive, instead, I will capture to external firewire with RAID 1 protection. It will process the capturing, rendering faster and prevent lost of your data.