Very lossy SVCDs, what am I doing wrong?

[black-ws6]

I'm fairly new at this VCD/SVCD/XVCD game, and just picked up my first DVD player this evening: Pioneer DV-444. I'm having a hard time generating the type of video quality I was led to believe I'd be getting by creating my own SVCDs.

The symptoms: the moment there's a little bit of motion on the screen, the image 'blocks' up pretty noisily. Also, when I specify a background image for the menu in Nero, the resulting VCD causes my DVD player output to scroll madly, as if it was the wrong system (PAL vs NTSC). I'm fairly certain I chose the right system settings, especially since I'm able to view the actual program material (albeit with the 'noise' mentioned above). The odd thing is that the player will not stop its scrolling unless I play something that does not scroll (like the actual program material)... otherwise, everything (including the DVD player's own setup menus, etc.) will scroll, even the 'pioneer' logo on-screen.

I'd post the settings I used in TMPGenc but at this moment I don't know which ones would be relevant to this problem. Oddly enough, even though I selected MPEG-2 when converting an AVI source file, NERO still complained once I tried to build the CD.

I hope I'm posting this in the right forum, if not please let me know where I should post this thread.

As I mentioned before, the descriptions of SVCD and XSVCD led me to believe I'd be getting something along the lines of S-VHS quality, which is certainly NOT the case. Any hint would be appreciated.

Thanks,
/Steve

[scissors]

make the effort - post your settings
and don't use nero - svcd is non compliant.
use vcdimager classic to just put film on disc - when you get that right then start worrying about menus.

Regards
Dave

[black-ws6]

Okay, I'll do that, Dave. As soon as I'm done with breakfast (was up until 5 am reading as much as I could off this site), I'm going to retrace my steps and indicate all the gory details.
Hopefully someone can point me to what setting I'm off on.

Thanks, and I'll have the details up within an hour or two.

/Steve

[Bud]

With all due respect to Dave, I have used NERO to burn SVCD with great results. I use SmartRipper, DVD2AVI and TMPEGnc and the standard SVCD templates for the TMPEGnc, I have also used other Templates from this site with success, so just keep reading and trying, you will develop a method that you like and can use, we all use different system and programs and methods.......if we all did the same things you would not be reading this forum nor would I.

Bud

[black-ws6]

In an attempt to eliminate variables and isolate my problem, I downloaded the sample XSVCD Nero image from the definitions chapters of VCDHELP.com. The resulting playback was much less blocky, but now contained a jittery playback. The sound would 'stutter' and I'm sure the video was was also freezing for a fraction of a second, every second. Based on what I've read, I'm going to try to lower the audio rate.

Again, thanks for all the guidance.

/Steve

[ngnr]

<TABLE BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH=85%><TR><TD><font size=-1>Quote:</font><HR size=1 color=black></TD></TR><TR><TD><FONT SIZE=-1><BLOCKQUOTE>
On 2001-12-27 02:43:09, black-ws6 wrote:
<snip>
I'd post the settings I used in TMPGenc but at this moment I don't know which ones would be relevant to this problem. Oddly enough, even though I selected MPEG-2 when converting an AVI source file, NERO still complained once I tried to build the CD.
</BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></TD></TR><TR><TD><HR size=1 color=black></TD></TR></TABLE>
Try loading the SVCD template for your particular region (PAL or NTSC) and re-encode. That will give you a pretty good result that will be standards compliant and eliminate some of the variables. If that plays well, then either just use that or only change one setting at a time until you get the desired result.

[BUGANNA]

Fact: there is no way to obtain professional quality results, in using software to create S or XVCDs.

Indeed, using MPEG-2 at high bitrate (DVD video spec.) is a reasonable option, but the large file size negates any point in doing so, especially as blank DVD-Rs (etc) are EXPENSIVE and only 50% the size of commercial DVD discs.

I too tried for ages and went through all the conversion steps, only Mpeg-2 was acceptable enough to reproduce a standard VHS movie onto Digital format (Mpeg-2)

anything lower than Mpeg-2 and the block noise, etc shows up everywhere.

maybe the Japanese dedicated VCD recorders are better, with hardware (real time) encoders. dont know, never seen one over here in UK.

my conclusion ? Well, I simply decided Ill wait until domestic DVD-RECORDERS take over from VHS and then use them to convert my VHS collection onto DVD .

( Presuming that by then full 9 gig DVD-Rs will be available !! )

its all (world) gone COPYRIGHT crazy.

Besides, why are people ( Joe Public ) so interested in the DVD format ? its just another sales gimmick for them, they dont have the class to appreciate a good film let alone quality video or audio reproduction.

Furthermore, the real problem with converting VHS onto DVD is the original quality copy, which is no where near as good as the MASTER copy.

Studios use that master copy to create VHS and DVD video, hence the quality pictures.

A real time Mpeg-2 encoder (professional quality) is whats required, but they cost arround £ 10,000.

and even then, no 9 gig blank DVDs are available.

oh well,

Boogs. !

PS: TMPGE is a LOT better than NERO.

[black-ws6]

Took the advice of loading up a template, that really helped as it gave me a stable base on which to start tweaking. I burned a short test SVCD file and it was pretty clear except for the spots where there was a change in video content (like a fade, or motion, etc.) at which point there was some pixelation. But that's okay... I understand that's how digital video is compressed anyway, so the next step is minimizing this noise.
(Nero still can't burn me a decent SVCD menu screen that doesn't flicker as if you're watching a PAL output on an NTSC screen, even after I upgraded to the latest version... oh well).

Next step: I'm going to try to up the resolution to 720x480 and see what that does for my playback. I did try this resolution last night, but went one extra step and set the 'Motion Search Precision' to something very high quality. The resulting output was kind of jerky and the audio skipped (even though I lowered the audio rate to 128kbps in an effort to avoid overloading anything on the DVD). Funny thing: if I paused the DVD player once things got jerky, it would resume smooth playback up until the next spot where the image changed or moved, as mentioned in my previous paragraph). So now I'll be trying the same resolution but with the Motion setting to 'Motion Estimate Search (fast)' instead. (I will keep the Constant Quality setting of 65 as well).

More info to come. Thanks for all the feedback. (I'm also considering trying these test files out on a Panasonic RP-56 in case it's my Pioneer that's choking, but so far I've been led to believe the Pioneer outperforms the Panasonic as far as adapting to tweaked VCD/SVCD settings).

/Steve

[Macros746]

Oooo, you don't want to do motion estimate search.. That will simply reduce your quality by a LARGE margin. Always select either high or highest (there is some debate as to whether anything above High is diminishing returns) I'm stil really not clear on your process and what you are trying to do. Are you transferring DVDs to SVCD or home movies? Help us out and we'll help you out. If you are ripping DVDs then you rip the DVD to your harddrive. Load the SVCD template, set the motion estimate to HIGH and then encode and see what you come up with. Nero should only be used to BURN SVCDs...never to encode them. Because, as a little perusal will tell you, the Nero encoder is a joke.

Macros

[black-ws6]

Let me backtrack, then. My intent is quite simple: I am looking at how far I can push the envelope of quality when burning SVCDs based on material assembled using desktop DV-editing s/w (I'm using Studio DV version 1.x to output to AVI, then using TMPGenc to encode the material to MPEG-2). I'm not terribly familiar with NERO (installed it not much more than 24 hours ago) but I am pretty sure I'm only just burning the MPEG-2 material to CD-RW, not encoding it. I am using the limited version of NERO that was shipped with my Yamaha burner (although upgraded to the 'latest' s/w level courtesy of the Ahead web page), so based on what I've seen my version does not contain an MPEG-2 encoding function. (Hmmm... might that be why my menus never come out right? Maybe I should generate some sort of MPEG-2 still file and load that as the first track... although that would shift all my track numbers by 1... if anyone has any hints on how I can get a decent opening menu screen on my limited version of Nero, that would help me greatly). In any case, if there's a way to check whether Nero is doing anything more than simply burning the MPEG-2 material, I'll gladly check into it.

For what it's worth, I'm selecting 'Super VCD' in the leftmost column when starting a new 'project', and removing the 'standard compliant CD' checkbox. Is this right?

I apologize if it seems I was being vague, it was not my intent. This is all extremely new to me (I've only been at this for less than 48 hours) and the learning curve is incredible. Even as I type, stuff is making more sense to me. I've had to keep a written diary of all the tweaks I've tried and how they've come out, there's so much to digest.

Based on your comment about motion estimate search and what I've read about the Pioneer DV-444 and SVCD bitrates, I'm going to try the high motion search precision setting but try to keep my video bitrate to a maximum of 2400 and perhaps a constant quality of 65 (on TMPGEnc). I'm still trying to get the feel for whether I'm better off with constant bit rates or constant quality.

The idea behind this whole adventure is that I'll come up with a good feel for what kind of maximum video quality I am able to achieve (regardless of storage requirements) before I reach some sort of technical limitation. Once I can figure that out, I will be able to make a better judgment call when I begin to burn the real material (not just the test stuff) as to what kind of space/quality tradeoff I'm willing to live with, depending on the material.

Your comments and feedback are all greatly appreciated as each reply serves to clarify things incredibly!

Thanks.
/Steve

[black-ws6]

I have to add that I just came across a reference to SVCD being limited to 2600 kbps total audio and video, so perhaps that is a ceiling I will have to deal with when determining video bitrates.

/Steve

[scissors]

test

[Stonecold420]

This is how I make svcd and if anyone wants to test this out and see how it looks to them go ahead.I will assume everyone can rip the DVD so I use forced film in dvd2avi. Next load up tmpeg. I use 2pass VBR. Just to make things easier I will use the Movie "Creepshow2". It is 89min long so I cut the credits. It's only 86min now. set your ave bitrate to 1202. set the max for 2664. I use 10bit precision"sp",and 3.2pulldown on playback.I also soften blocknoise at 45 and 35. audio is 112kps mono. also resoulation is 352x480. I know this will get people saying that I am wrong, but to me sound is second to video. My friends say that in a mid to low action movie this is great quality.

[lightsaber]

If you want to backup a DVD movie into a SVCD, here is how, http://212.88.77.140/ . Also, in the FAQs there you can learn a lot about converting from other formats. Nero sucks for converting, don´t forget that it´s only a CD recording soft. And, please BUGANNA, if you haven´t got the right results in a SVCD is because you haven´t use the proper soft. Try Cinema Craft Enconder SP (there is a trial at http://www.cinemacraft.com ) with VBR of 4 or 5 passes. It´s DVD-like in a normal TV (not hi-res).
I Have a lot of DVDs backed-up in two CDs with even more than 1 audio track. The results are unbelievable.

[Matthijs]

I wonder if you found a solution for the SVCD quality. I'm experiencing similar problems.

[dphirschler]

Let me throw a monkee wrench into the mix. My DVD player (Pioneer 525) plays PAL VCDs just fine. I presume most (or possibly all) others also play PAL VCDs with nor problems. Therefore, I think you can end that line of investigation.

That being said, I too was initially disappointed by the output of SVCD. But when I finally nailed it, I NAILED it! And boy was I impressed! SVCD, given a good quality source, can be damn close to DVD quality.

What changed for me to discover that DVDs are actually storing the movie as film (ie. ~24 fps) and then telecining (3:2 pulldown) it upon playback. Your SVCD can do the same. Get your video into frames however you can (force film when ripping then remove duplicate frames, or inverse telecine and decimate a captured show), then either burn a ~24 fps SVCD or force it to ~30 fps (which I believe duplicates frames). either way, you get great quality.

Just remeber, SVCD is only for great quality sources.


Darryl

[bachkhoa]

black-ws6,

I'm using StudioDV v1.0 also. This is what I'v done and it worked for me:
. Capture from my Digital8 (with Hi8 tape)
. Edit the session and saved as DV incodec 5 (avi)
. Use TMPGEnc (2.02) to encode to SVCD (2400CBR/192Aud/FieldB)
. Burn with Nero (5.5.0.3)

[Antknee24]

That's strange, Using smart ripper, I've ripped, then using Tmpge I've encoded, and had no problem burning a SVCD. Do you have the latest version of nero?

[Matthijs]

Thanks a lot ! I have an excellent SVCD now. To others with the same problem: Don't make your MPEG's with Studio DV, use TMPGEnc to convert the AVI in SVCD compliant MPEG. Then burn it with VCDEasy, Nero or whatever.

[sdispun]

black-ws6 /steve,

"playback was blocky, and jittery", might be from your cd-rw burner. I've got the same result from 24x cd-rw on 32x media, then all I did was lower the burn speed down to 16x, and voilà.. Almost as good as DVD.

BTW, I'm doing VCD complained, 352x240 @ 1.15 Mb/s using Nero 5.5 from DVD. If from Hi8, then "'Motion Estimate Search" at 100% that what I'm using (that is if your system can handle).
Su