Adding subtitles decreases output quality...can this be fixed?

[Mayotruck]

Hi all,

Well First off I have been having HUGE issues today, I ran a full virus csan adaware scan defragged the whole 9 yards... and then I tryed reinstalling virtualdummob ...and always the same thing... First off virtualdubmod does not go into my add remove programs list...not sure if thats normal, but if it's not please let me know. Then I downloaded VobSub_2.23.exe and I try to extract it to virtualdubmod and it begins extracting then blam! This happens
http://img213.imageshack.us/my.php?image=screenshot055so8.jpg
I have to manually shut down the program to get rid of it.... I must have some pretty bad issues on my computer,but any advice would help.. but anyways...

Then I decide I will try to add these subtitles anyways.So,
I have followed these instructions pefectly:
https://forum.videohelp.com/viewtopic.php?t=272736
( I first tryed AutoGk...and my movie came out 100% quality with the subtitles)

So I tryed anouther movie with AutoGk, and when it was "Analyzing source" , VirtualDub gets an error at 41% (like clockwork(tryed about 4 times)) it has an error message, which is this.
http://img442.imageshack.us/img442/8844/screenshot043oy8.jpg

I tryed to figure out what the problem was and it maybe my audio driver, for this motherboard, but I'm not sure. So anyways, I decided to use VirtualDub instead and followed that link above.

It all worked fine and it actually subtitled the video and all but, the visual quality of the movie is way worse than the source video(and yes i had it on full rendering.. I followed the above steps EXACTLY)

So all i want is to get this movie's quality as good as the first movie I made, but it seems either I have made some stupid errors(quiet possible) or my computer is having some major issues... either way any advice would be nice.

If it makes any difference it was subtitling an .avi file.

Any ideas on how to fix any of my computer problems?

[manono]

Hi-

1. No, I don't have VDubMod in Add/Remove Programs either. I guess you just delete the folder when tired of it.
2. When installing VobSub, it goes into the already existing VDubMod Plugins folder, and not one you create for the purpose. It's adding the VSFilter.vdf (or the textsub.vdf and vobsub_vd.vdf). Just point to where VDubMod is installed.
3. I don't know what the problem could be with AutoGK, or VDubMod encoding from within AutoGK.
4. As for the bad video quality when encoding with subs, there's not really enough information to diagnose the problem. First though, all other factors being equal, for the same quality with subs as the original AVI without subs, you'll need a higher bitrate. Hardcoded subs are difficult to compress. In addition, did you encode the version with subs the same as the original without subs; same resolution and bitrate? The size of both was roughly the same? On the face of it, if the reencode was much worse than the original, it might seem that either the reencode had a much higher resolution with the same bitrate, or a much lower bitrate for the same resolution (and audio). To find the bitrate of the original, check in GSpot.

[Mayotruck]

1) Ok good thats 1 thing out of the way.
2)

. When installing VobSub, it goes into the already existing VDubMod Plugins folder, and not one you create for the purpose. It's adding the VSFilter.vdf (or the textsub.vdf and vobsub_vd.vdf). Just point to where VDubMod is installed.

Ok this may be my problem: Did a search on textsub.vdf showed up in 2 different files...
C: Program Files/VirtualDubMod/Vobsub and in,
C: Progarm Files/VirtualDubMod/plugins/Vobsub
textsub.vdf same thing same directories as well..
VSFilter.vdf No results...

So which file should they be in?

3) NP!

4) Heres the results... Original says Orig on it.
http://img221.imageshack.us/img221/9526/screenshot059gd7.jpg

Hardcoded subs are difficult to encode

The file that I have is a .sub file.. Is that hardcoded?(I have no idea)

did you encode the version with subs the same as the original without subs

Um, not sure what you mean unless do you mean the first movie was it almost the same .. yes...same bitrate and same sub file..and roughly the same size. a few thousand kb's diffrence.

much higher resolution with the same bitrate, or a much lower bitrate for the same resolution (and audio). To find the bitrate of the original, check in GSpot.

The original file of the movie that turned out like crap was 717,404 kb and the sub (final copy) was 823, 370kb. hopefully I helped you a bit I'm pretty new to this, as you can tell.

PS if u want different information on the files just let me know how to do it and I will gladly post the results via image shack!

[manono]

So which file should they be in?

The Plugins folder. VDubMod can't make use of them, or any other 3rd party filter, unless they're in the Plugins folder. Then when you open VDubMod, are in Full Compression, and go to Filters->Add, you'll see not only the included filters, but the ones in the Plugins folder as well. Don't worry about the VSFilter.vdf. I don't have it either. The Textsub.vdf is for use with text based subs (SSA or SRT formats, for example), and the vobsub_vd.vdf is for VobSubs (IDX/SUB format).

Same resolution and an even higher bitrate for the reencode. Theoretically the quality should be OK. A couple of things stand out, though. One is that you switched from XviD to DivX. Nothing really wrong with that. But what's very peculiar is that you managed to increase the number of frames and the length by nearly 50%. The original has 65,693 frames and is 43:47 long. The reencode has 96,006 frames and is 1:04:01 long. Or so it says. I have no idea how you managed that. And there are some other things about those 2 pics that don't quite add up. Are those pics really from the same video, one a reencode of the other?

The file that I have is a .sub file.. Is that hardcoded?(I have no idea)

The purpose of the guide to which you linked explains how to hardcode the subs using AutoGK. That means you're "burning" them into the video. When you open an AVI in VDubMod and scroll around and see subs, they're hardcoded. If you don't see any, they're not.

hopefully I helped you a bit I'm pretty new to this, as you can tell.

No, you gave more than enough information, thanks. Unfortunately, I can't use it to give you any useful tips as the information in the 2 pics is sort of contradictory. In what way is the reencoded video worse than the original? Can you describe it? Have you tried different players and seen the same differences? Have you tried Media Player Classic or the VLC player?

[Mayotruck]

The Plugins folder. VDubMod can't make use of them, or any other 3rd party filter, unless they're in the Plugins folder.

Ok ty I will work on that later.

Theoretically the quality should be OK.

It is its just a bit "block-ish" in some scenes...and the text is not as sharp as the first copy.

But what's very peculiar is that you managed to increase the number of frames and the length by nearly 50%. The original has 65,693 frames and is 43:47 long. The reencode has 96,006 frames and is 1:04:01 long. Or so it says.

from the same video, one a reencode of the other?

Actually I re-ran it and for some reason G-spot stuck on 43:47 the actual lenght is 1:04:01...hrm this might be the reason of the 41% failure!!! Is there a way around this "bad area" of the original?

EDIT: I went to that bad area of the original movie and bang! Audio starting skiping Mplayer couldn't play the file... It was constinatley sounding in a low volume like a bicyle tire rubing agiant the side of the frame then froze screen and had to cntrol alt delete and manually close mplayer.. WMP has to dwonload a codec then has a big red 'x" next to the name but full volume and doesnt affect it at all entire movie playes good no missing sound or delayed sound...like it isn't there...Vlc player works perfect too...Media player classic no volume at all... so definatley a sound codec issue or something... so any way to fix this?

That means you're "burning" them into the video. When you open an AVI in VDubMod and scroll around and see subs, they're hardcoded. If you don't see any, they're not.

this explains alot, no wonder... yes its hardcoding then.

Have you tried different players and seen the same differences? Have you tried Media Player Classic or the VLC player?

I have in fact tryed these both and Mplayer ....Mplayer seems to play it the best, but the other movie I burnt played it good on all of them(Because it burnt it inot the file, not hardcoded it...I'm getting this now)

So I need to Burn this in i guess... so how do I get around that 41% mark.. hah or that "trouble area"?

Ps- TY very much you have helped me more than you know.


EDIT: UPDATE!! I have solved this issue... It was a corrupt avi file so I ran DIVfix (lost a little info) then re-subtitled using AutoGK, It's currentley at 78% and flying through it, will update you about subtitles//video quality after, but I'm sure the quality will be there but I may have to do a few edits on the subtitles to get them balanced with my 8K shorter movie, but we will see!
Thank you so much for the help I was lost until you showed me the way !

[manono]

Hi-

It is its just a bit "block-ish" in some scenes...and the text is not as sharp as the first copy.

Here's hoping that AutoGK gives you a better result. Blockiness is usually one of 2 kinds. One is seen in solid colored areas, like skies, walls, or solid blacks. Not much can be done about that. The other kind shows up during complex scenes, like explosions, crowd scenes, fast camera movement, action scenes in general. That kind is caused by lack of bitrate. Since you said the original didn't have the problem, and since, if the pic is to be believed, the bitrate for the reencode is higher than the original, the cause might be not a high enough maximum bitrate. This might happen if you have DivX set for the Home Theater Profile, where the max bitrate is limited because standalone DVD/MPEG-4 players often stutter or freeze temporarily during fast moving scenes. This might also happen in AutoGK, for both XviD as well as DivX, if you turn on the ESS or MTK chipset options. And it'll also happen if you use 1-pass Constant BitRate (CBR) encoding. But you wouldn't do anything so foolish, now would you?

Thank you so much for the help

You're welcome. I hope it turns out well for you.

[Mayotruck]

That kind is caused by lack of bitrate. Since you said the original didn't have the problem, and since, if the pic is to be believed, the bitrate for the reencode is higher than the original, the cause might be not a high enough maximum bitrate.

I will make sure to keep this in mind, for next time.

This might happen if you have DivX set for the Home Theater Profile, where the max bitrate is limited because standalone DVD/MPEG-4 players often stutter or freeze temporarily during fast moving scenes. This might also happen in AutoGK, for both XviD as well as DivX, if you turn on the ESS or MTK chipset options. And it'll also happen if you use 1-pass Constant BitRate (CBR) encoding. But you wouldn't do anything so foolish, now would you?

As for these other two hahaa... um I have no idea!?! Suprised?! I thought not!(but I will be looking into what your saying)

Anyways the rip from AutoGK was a complete sucess, yeah the subtitles slowly turn into a few seconds off by the end of the rip, but quality is still perfect! Agian I can't thank you enough, you know your stuff, and it shows!

[manono]

Hi-

As for these other two hahaa... um I have no idea!?!

But didn't you claim in a different thread that doing the encodes directly in VDubMod was a much faster method than is using AutoGK? It's a curious argument to make since AutoGK itself uses VDubMod. So, one explanation for the faster times you got using VDubMod was that you used only 1-pass, whereas the AutoGK time includes the indexing of the video, the analysis step, the default 2 video passes, the times for the audio demuxing and encoding, and the remuxing of everything when all done.

And if you did only use 1-pass in VDubMod, and unless you know about 1-pass encoding by quant, then you probably used CBR encoding, which wastes bits on static scenes, and starves the complex scenes of bits, and could easily lead to blockiness during the high-action parts of the movie. So, my recommendation, until you get the hang of this, is to stick with AutoGK.