DVD Recorders soon to have ATSC tuners

[TheResonator]

http://reviews.cnet.com/8301-12760_7-9675202-5.html?tag=blog

[MrCreosote]

Interesting article.

Nice to hear about quality LP speed.

Not so nice to hear nothing about HDD's.

They so sound rather pricey for recorder only units.

[TheResonator]

JVC will refresh their DVD recorder lineup too.

http://www.jvc.com/press/index.jsp?item=545&pageID=1

http://www.twice.com/article/CA6405217.html

[MrCreosote]

Somehow, both of those articles sounded a little disappointing.

It is sad, but the freedom we all experienced with the VCR is basically gone.

[lordsmurf]

Nice to hear about quality LP speed.

Just more Panasonic fluff marketing.

The 720x480 Full D1 2.0-2.5 Mb/s encoding at 4 hours is going to look like crap any way you slice it. The only thing that can make MPEG-2 DVD-Video look good at 4 hours is to cut res to Half D1 or just use DL media with 5.5 Mb/s for Full D1. Nothing else will suffice.

Panasonic always has and apparently always will have a 4-hour image so full of blocks that it will look more like a stack of Lego than a video.

That second article was really nothing more than Panasonic-worshipping literary fellatio.

The only thing I learned was ATSC will be added to some crappy DVD recorders. LG has some really varied offerings lately (in terms of quality), we still don't know if RCA will actually use a stereo tuner yet, and then Panasonic is just being typical crappy Panasonic. RCA seems to be adding annoyances like TV Guardian too. Even JVC is wasting time on VCR/DVD combos.... WTF?!

Where's the good DVD recorders or HDD DVD recorders?

[oldandinthe way]

Where's the good DVD recorders or HDD DVD recorders?

Unfortunately they are waiting for significant market demand.

Time for a comment about chickens and eggs.

[gshelley61]

I think that I read somewhere that Toshiba is taking a wait and see approach to adding ATSC tuners to their DVD recorders, but will likely go in that direction (as will everyone else eventually).

Some of the units mentioned in the articles would probably be great for people who are planning to keep their traditional NTSC TV sets beyond the FEB 2009 shut down date for analog transmission - considering what a set top HD/DTV tuner costs, these units are pretty good deals. One of those combo units with the ATSC tuner would be fine for my parents, for example.

[oldandinthe way]

In the US, the Federal government will be subsidizing tuners. Expect details closer to the Feb 2009 date. Part of the great HDTV giveaway.

[davideck]

The elephant in the room, of course, is that none of these ATSC Recorders have a HDD or actually record HiDef. If I can rent an HD Recorder from Comcast, why can't I buy one?

Where's the good DVD recorders or HDD DVD recorders?

There are good HDD DVD Recorders out there. Toshiba is one example. IMO, the difference in features and functionality between an RCA and a Toshiba is beyond comparison.

[CubDukat]

The elephant in the room, of course, is that none of these ATSC Recorders have a HDD or actually record HiDef. If I can rent an HD Recorder from Comcast, why can't I buy one?

In a word, control. While Comcast and its ilk can get away with deciding what you can and cannot record, those of us who are stuck with regular OTA HDTV won't have it. Not to mention that Comcast more or less makes it impossible for you to use any other equipment other than theirs, so you have no choice but to submit to their restrictions.

I think things are finally getting to the point where the general public is beginning to see through the entertainment industry's arguments to get to their real intent: pure, uncut, unedited, unadulterated greed. It's a fact of human nature that the more control you exert, the harder people will fight against it.

That's why the only way the Broadcast Bit bill will ever pass is if it's slammed through, because nobody other than the entertainment companies want it.

[lordsmurf]

Toshiba is one example. IMO, the difference in features and functionality between an RCA and a Toshiba is beyond comparison.

Toshiba is flawed in my book. The power consumption and heat issues, as caused by TV Guide On Screen (TVGOS) make their high-quality XS-series machines a concern for those of us who don't want to tempt fate burning down the house or paying extra annually to the local electric company (not to mention it's not green-minded).

They need to fix that BS to truly be a top quality machine. Right now it's just the lesser of all evils.

It could get worse, but something simple like the ability to cut off TVGOS (and thus let the machine run cool and go fan-less) should be implemented. Then it would be the mother of machines.

JVC only needs to release their models in the USA instead of Europe only.

The state of affairs in the DVD recorder market plain sucks right now.

[davideck]

Toshiba is flawed in my book. The power consumption and heat issues, as caused by TV Guide On Screen (TVGOS) make their high-quality XS-series machines a concern for those of us who don't want to tempt fate burning down the house or paying extra annually to the local electric company (not to mention it's not green-minded).

The Toshiba XS52/KX50 models do not have TVGOS and standby at less than one watt. Many DVD Recorders have standby power consumptions that are similar to the newer XS units. 15 Watts is small compared to a PC left on all the time for encoding or whatever. I doubt that any Toshiba will burn your house down. The JVCs with their loading error and frying resistors are more likely to do that.

In terms of editing, authoring, command response time, TBC performance, picture quality, and build quality, Toshiba is in a class by itself. I think you're missing the bigger picture.

[Neuron]

...The JVCs with their loading error and frying resistors are more likely to do that.
....

Ooo please ..not "their loading error " ..
I wonder how many JVC recorder owners do your know who do or do not have this issue? Do you have official statistics or your opinion is only based on what you heard here on this forum ? :/ I'm sure you heard a lot of negative thoughts about JVC from unhappy owners because they came in to this particular forum for answers and help. But how about the rest of happy satisfied owners? Don't' you think that those can be even more?

I'm an owner of two JVC records (DR-MH30S and DR-M10) since 2004 and non of them ever gave me any hard time or showed any issues whatsoever.

[gshelley61]

Speaking of the Toshiba RD-KX50, I picked up one from eBay recently (untested, no remote) and have been checking it out. My XS34/35 remotes operate it with no problem, and there is nothing wrong with the unit so far as I can tell. Works perfectly fine.

No TVGOS (it has VCR+ instead), so the fan does indeed shut down when it is off. Plus, the case is taller so the fan is larger and quieter than the XS34/35. It operates nearly identically to the XS34/35, with the same recording quality, GUI, features, etc. Build quality is very sturdy.

There are a couple of downsides. No DVD-RW recording capability. DVD-R or DVD-RAM only. No input black level setting for 7.5 IRE, so unless you have a proc amp or pass your source signal through another device like a Toshiba D-R4, then 7.5 IRE blacks will be encoded at digital level 32 and the finished discs will appear somewhat washed out on other players. This is no different than other recorders that have this same issue like the Lite-On units, Sony RDR-GX315, etc.

Other than that, it seems to be an excellent machine...

[trhouse]

I'm an owner of two JVC records (DR-MH30S and DR-M10) since 2004 and non of them ever gave me any hard time or showed any issues whatsoever.

I am not sure where you bought the M10 since you indicate Eur>US, but only US made models have a high risk if showing the problem because it is exacerbated by these very hot resistors. All models potentially have it because it is caused by the voltage levels between the LSI mpeg processor and certain other chips being slightly low. JVC's cure is to use 1K pullup resistors to increase these voltages.

The hot resistors ( 94 degrees F. ) cause premature aging in the power supplies of US M10's which can cause the voltages to change bringing on the problem but the power supplies of other models like the combos do not share the same power supply design so they have a much lower probability of having this happen.

[Bix]

It's at least nice to see in theory so as to make it easier to archive high quality versions of TV shows that aren't going to see DVD releases like Cold Case and whatnot.

[Neuron]

...I am not sure where you bought the M10 since you indicate Eur>US, but only US made models have a high risk if showing the problem because it is .......

Never mind Eur. I'm in US and I have US models.
JVC DR-M10SL purchased from Crutchfield in May 2004
JVC DR-MH30S purchased from B&H in June 2005

[jman98]

In a word, control. While Comcast and its ilk can get away with deciding what you can and cannot record, those of us who are stuck with regular OTA HDTV won't have it. Not to mention that Comcast more or less makes it impossible for you to use any other equipment other than theirs, so you have no choice but to submit to their restrictions.

It is possible to record directly to a PC from an HD cable box via a firewire link. You can only record unencrypted shows (no HBO), but it does work. Take a look at:
http://hdjunkie.com/tutorials.html
for information on how to do this. Since I care absolutely nothing about recording HBO and don't subscribe to it, this solution works great for me.

[davideck]

...The JVCs with their loading error and frying resistors are more likely to do that.
....

Ooo please ..not "their loading error " ..
I wonder how many JVC recorder owners do your know who do or do not have this issue? Do you have official statistics or your opinion is only based on what you heard here on this forum ? :/ I'm sure you heard a lot of negative thoughts about JVC from unhappy owners because they came in to this particular forum for answers and help. But how about the rest of happy satisfied owners? Don't' you think that those can be even more?

I made that statement in jest...that's why I added the LOL emoticon.
I do not suspect that JVCs are burning houses down.

[TheResonator]

Why are models being dumbed-down or withdrawn for the North American market?
This CES seminar provides some answers:

http://video.yahoo.com/video/play?vid=5438ba0334f02698d65b608762b8b841.1689289

At CES, it is difficult not to overhear stories how Americans refuse to read manuals, and Japanese mfg. give up and withdraw products from the market (classic example: Sony CLIE).

Returns are costly to the mfg. (they usually pay for returns, not the retailer).

Another story exchanged by DVD recorder vendors blames the failure of DVD recorder take-off partly on the short number of hours that DVD provides (2 hours with SP), and the fact that very few American's bother to record and collect programs like they used to in the 1980's. Any instant gratification will suffice today. Loyal show viewers have already adopted PVR's, and have little interest in keeping copies for later viewing.

People forget though that DVD was pretty messed up during the critical adoption phase with incompatible disk types (DVD+R vs. DVD-R). It's sorta fixed now, but is too late. Dual layer is also too little, too late.

Notice that the user interface of the more recent JVC recorders, such as the only surviving model (combo VCR/DVD) has a greatly simplified user interface compared to past models like the M10 and MH100. I found its VCR quality to be quite good.

It is possible to fit diluted MPEG-2 D1 res content into 2 mbps with few blocking artifacts thanks to emulated motion blur... it's just a bit pointless. All this shows is the need for a 2/3-D1 mode in DVD-ROM book type (another mistake widely lamented by insiders).

DRM has also caused a lot of recent returns ("can't record HBO?!? I used to be able to do that with my VHS VCR!!!").

Frankly, I doubt CE mfg. will ever learn. Their egos (and now DRM from content owners) get in the way.

[InXess]

Another story exchanged by DVD recorder vendors blames the failure of DVD recorder take-off partly on the short number of hours that DVD provides (2 hours with SP), and the fact that very few American's bother to record and collect programs like they used to in the 1980's. Any instant gratification will suffice today. Loyal show viewers have already adopted PVR's, and have little interest in keeping copies for later viewing.
...
DRM has also caused a lot of recent returns ("can't record HBO?!? I used to be able to do that with my VHS VCR!!!").
Frankly, I doubt CE mfg. will ever learn. Their egos (and now DRM from content owners) get in the way.

Have manuf. ever paid attention to what the public's needs are? Seems like they catch up always at the end of the production cycle before introducing another greatly messed up idea as a replacement. Had they watched TIVO vs consumers saga they would have known exactly what's important and what's not.

[edDV]

Not mentioned so far is a DVD tuner capable of QAM reception off cable. If you are in an area without an off air option, these DVD recorders will not be able to tune the DTV channels over cable without another cable box.

They will only be able to tune the reduced number of analog cable channels. By 2009, analog cable channels may be reduced to less than 20 (basic service) to free bandwidth for more DTV channels (SD and HDTV).

[nlec]

... and the fact that very few American's bother to record and collect programs like they used to in the 1980's. Any instant gratification will suffice today. Loyal show viewers have already adopted PVR's, and have little interest in keeping copies for later viewing.

I remember I had an aunt and uncle who had a huge collection of teevee shows and movies they recorded on VHS back in the 80s. But my main comment is about the lack of interest today in keeping copies for later viewing. If that is true, then the focus on DRM seems illogical. Isn't that precisely what the DRM proponents seek to prevent? IMO DRM is intrusive and works against consumers' rights. If they're obsessed with protecting their content but admit nonetheless that people aren't "stealing" their content for the long term, then I can't say I'm surprised. In the long run DRM is doomed and it's unfortunate that today we have to put up with it until it dies.

[RabidDog]

I'm surprised you aint got much choice over there, maybe beccoz you're further down the hi-def path (too much storage req) or becoz the cable comps have a large part of the market sewn up. Also even in the Uk with relative recent increase in channels I feel people dont want to bother recording and keeping stuff, with all these plus+1 channels and various gold, history, classic channels, all basically full up with pre-aired(repeated) TV, why bother to record, as if the show is even only mediocre, it will be repeated sometime, soon.
Cable obviously wants to keep people on its own equipment, as they prefer you to rent at $10 pm(for four years) rather than spend out 240-360 to buy outright.