ATSC tuners in New Panis don't output true Hi-Def signal

[David K]

According to the Cnet review of the DMR-EZ47VK, the built-in ATSC tuner downconverts the digital signal to 480p and then upconverts it to 1080p. (Did Hollywood force them to cripple the box?) Disappointing.

As now required by federal law, the DMR-EZ47VK comes equipped with an ATSC tuner, which is capable of picking up digital over-the-air broadcasts. When we first heard about DVD recorders equipped with ATSC tuners back at CES, we were pretty excited about the idea, but we found ourselves a little disappointed with the DMR-EZ47VK's implementation. For basic use, it actually works quite well; the tuner was very quick in scanning for channels and picked up everything it should have. Additionally, digital stations always looked better than their analog counterparts, at least in our testing area. On the other hand, it was disappointing to see that Panasonic did not include an EPG with the DMR-EZ47VK. Many standalone digital ATSC tuners have EPGs, as program guide data is included in ATSC signals. The other major limitation is that the DMR-EZ47VK does not output true high-definition TV. Over-the-air digital signals are fully capable of displaying high-definition TV, but instead the DMR-EZ47VK displays a 480p signal upconverted to 1080p--which is far from true high definition (more on this in the Performance section). One other minor note regarding the ATSC tuner is that it is not possible to record digital channels to VHS tapes, although the downconverted versions can be recorded to DVD.

As we mentioned before, the DMR-EZ47VK is incapable of outputting true high-definition content from ATSC signals. We first noticed this simply by looking at a high-definition program from a built-in ATSC tuner on the Panasonic TH-58PX600U and comparing it to the DMR-EZ47VK. The difference was definitely noticeable, with the easiest place to spot it simply being the CBS logo which looked sharp with nice rounded edges on the TH-58PX600U, while it looked soft and had more jagged edges on the DMR-EZ47VK.

We were able to test that resolution was in fact being lost with our Sencore VP403C signal generator, using its RF output. From there, we looked at resolution patterns, and it was apparent that the DMR-EZ47ZK could not pass the full resolution of 1080i or 720p signals, despite the fact that it puts out a "1080p" signal. It did, however, display all the detail of a 480p signal. What we imagine is happening inside the device is that it downconverts the original high-definition signal to 480p--which loses much of the actual detail--and then it upconverts it back to 1080p.

[FulciLives]

From what I've read all of the DVD recorders with HDTV tuners do this and the problem lies with the chipset that is doing the tuning. From what I've read the next generation of chipsets will be able to pass-thru the HDTV signal while also downsampling it to 480i for DVD recording.

You have to remember that any DVD recorder out there with a HDTV tuner is a first generation product as far as the tuner goes.

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[edDV]

This will be true for the current generation DVD recorders with ATSC/QAM tuners.

I'm evaluating an LG DR787T DVD recorder with ATSC/QAM tuner to a high quality 46" Samsung LNT-4665F 1080p LCD HDTV.

All HD channel input is downscaled to 480i and is not available in pass through mode to HDMI at all. The 480i setting is locked out for HDMI forcing use of analog component and 480i (no DVD recorder upconversion) for pass through. The upconversion load passes to the HDTV.

I've found a QAM version of Comcast MHD (HD music videos) that I'm using for tests. I plan to compare the live HD to 480i (with HDTV upconversion to 1080p) against a DVD recording with player upconversion to 480p, 720p and 1080i

So far, the Samsung does a reasonable job of 480i upscale to 1080p with inverse telecine where necessary. The quality is nowhere close to the direct MHD 1080i input of course but looks very good compared to other cable SD inputs.

I'd assume other digital tuner DVD recorders will operate in a similar way. Let's compare.

One other observation, 16x9 HDTV is being processed in wide 480i mode to the analog component and HDMI (DVD playback) outputs for proper wide aspect display at the TV. This is a big plus.

[gshelley61]

This info is at least several months old now. None of the current ATSC/clear QAM equipped DVD recorders and VHS/DVD combos pass through a high def signal. None of them ever claimed to. These are standard definition devices capable of receiving digital TV signals and downconverting them (if they are HD signals) to standard definition for recording on VHS or DVD. These units are perfectly fine for people with standard definition analog TV's looking for a cost efficient way to add digital TV reception to their current set, along with DVD and VHS capability, in one box.

There is some speculation that future units may have high def pass through capability through HDMI for viewing only (not for recording). Otherwise, you can simply get a high definition digital set top receiver and a separate DVD recorder and you will have the what you want now.

[Frobozz]

I don't understand why anyone would expect differently. Is the idea that DVD recorders equipped with an HDTV tuner should only downconvert to SD when recording but not when simply displaying a tuned channel? Of course it will downconvert all HD to SD. It's purpose is to make and play video DVDs, not to be a HDTV tuner. I see no conspiracy here.

[next]

Sony has two models coming out in August which claim HD tuners. I'm not sure if this is just marketing hype. Most other ATSC tuner DVD recorders claim a SD digital tuner.

The first teo models here:

http://www.sonystyle.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/CategoryDisplay?catalogId=10551&sto...tegoryId=27913

Again not sure if it is just marketing hype.

[gshelley61]

Sony has two models coming out in August which claim HD tuners. I'm not sure if this is just marketing hype. Most other ATSC tuner DVD recorders claim a SD digital tuner.

The first teo models here:

http://www.sonystyle.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/CategoryDisplay?catalogId=10551&sto...tegoryId=27913

Again not sure if it is just marketing hype.

The Notes (small print) at the bottom of p. 22 of the 655 manual states "HD (High Definition) signal through this recorder is converted to SD (Standard Definition) signal, even if the HDMI OUT connection is used"

http://www.sonystyle.com/wcsstore/SonyStyleStorefrontAssetStore/pdf/RDRVXD655.pdf

So, these are no different than any of the other DVD recorders and DVD/VCR combo units with ATSC/QAM tuners built in that are currently available. Certainly Sony is being somewhat misleading by saying the unit has an HDTV tuner... without mentioning clearly that HD signals actually get downconverted for both display and recording.

[FulciLives]

Sony has two models coming out in August which claim HD tuners. I'm not sure if this is just marketing hype. Most other ATSC tuner DVD recorders claim a SD digital tuner.

The first teo models here:

http://www.sonystyle.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/CategoryDisplay?catalogId=10551&sto...tegoryId=27913

Again not sure if it is just marketing hype.

The Notes (small print) at the bottom of p. 22 of the 655 manual states "HD (High Definition) signal through this recorder is converted to SD (Standard Definition) signal, even if the HDMI OUT connection is used"

http://www.sonystyle.com/wcsstore/SonyStyleStorefrontAssetStore/pdf/RDRVXD655.pdf

So, these are no different than any of the other DVD recorders and DVD/VCR combo units with ATSC/QAM tuners built in that are currently available. Certainly Sony is being somewhat misleading by saying the unit has an HDTV tuner... without mentioning clearly that HD signals actually get downconverted for both display and recording.

You beat me to it LOL

I downloaded the PDF manual to the SONY RDR-GXD455 and sure enough it says the same thing in regards to the built-in HDTV tuner.

I did notice some interesting things though:

1.) Can record in DVD-R/-RW ... DVD+R/+RW ... DVD+R DL (but no DVD-R DL)

2.) DVD-R and DVD-RW can be recorded in either VR MODE or VIDEO MODE

3.) Has fixed recording times of 1 hour, 1.5 hours, 2 hours, 2.5 hours, 3 hours, 4 hours and 6 hours. That is based on a single layer DVD. It can record to DVD+R DL and the manual states that the 1 hour mode gives you 1 hour 48 minutes ... the 1.5 hour mode becomes 2 hours 42 minutes ... the 2 hour mode becomes 3 hours 37 minutes etc.

This is more recording modes than most DVD recorders with fixed recording times. I still can't believe more DVD recorders aren't more adjustable. For instance my Pioneer DVD recorder allows me to set the recording time in increments of 5 to 10 minutes. Toshiba has a similar thing on some models.

4.) I was reading the options about 16x9 WS recording and how you can record a 16x9 HDTV broadcast in 16x9 WS but then it says, "when recording in HQ, HSP, SP or LSP mode." Now HQ is 1 hour, HSP is 1.5 Hours, SP is 2 hours and LSP is 2.5 hours. This suggests to me that after the LSP (2.5 hours) mode that there is a resolution drop since 16x9 WS is only supported when using 720x480 (or 704x480).

This is good if true since this suggests that the 3 hour mode uses 352x480 which is more proper than recording 3 hours at 720x480 but most DVD recorders do seem to want to record 3 hours at 720x480 so I consider the SONY a plus here.

5.) The only really "bad" thing to me is that there is no selectable black level for input. There is a selectable black level for output but it goes on to say that this only works when not in progressive output mode. This means it only works for 480i output via composite and S-video. It may also work with Component out if you don't have progressive on but the wording here is not clear. It sounds as if it may only work for composite and S-video and not for Component even if progressive is off. It does state clearly it doesn't work for HDMI output.

I like when companies make downloadable PDF manuals

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[dougwx]

Some of you must have too much time on your hands, why would you need true HD when you are recording to a standard 4.7G DVD?

[David K]

why would you need true HD when you are recording to a standard 4.7G DVD?

To have the best of both worlds:

HD out
and
DVD recording (in SD, but then again there is no HD kind at the moment)

To have both in one box, which I currently have in two (standalone Digital tuner and standalone DVD recorder). Not too much to ask for, I thought. But, with first generation DVD recorder digital tuners, it apparently is.

[DVWannaB]

If anyone has a good DVD Recorder and a 5th generation ATSC tuner, you dont need any of these new ATSC DVD Recorders, plus they are overpriced. Go to ebay get a 5th generation ATSC tuner for as little as $60 (sometimes less) and a Toshiba XS-34 and you are set.

[StringDriver]

Hi all.

I realize I'm blowing the dust off of this post, but I've had a recent experience that I'd like to relate.
Y'all are WAY more knowledgeable than I, and I recently discovered that the DVD Recorder/VHS Combo did not have any tuners. Yep, it's a groaner. I did not know that such machines were made, and I don't have cable or satellite television.

So I'm going to return it. It is a Sony RDR-VX655.

As I read through the above post, I realized that I purchased a machine (SonyStyle refurb) that's a couple years old.

Being new to HDTV, I'm definitely a novice running with OTA broadcasts via a Woods antenna.

If someone were looking for a machine today in the $150 - $250 range that would record OTA signals to DVD-RW or VHS, which machine would you recommend?

Is there any value in staying with brand if one has a Sony television? Is it sensible to stay with Sony?

Forgive any newbieness this posting has all over it.

Just appealing to a crowd with much more knowledge than I.

Heck, if I can learn to sew custom kites with the help of a forum, I can certainly derive some great information here.

Any replies or info appreciated. PM, or E-mail is ok for off-line comments.

If I need to be moderated for waking the dead with an old post, forgive me, and moderate away! LOL

Again, any help appreciated. Just about to return my Sony and looking for information on the WHY or WHY NOT to

buy/ not buy a particular feature set.

If my price range is too low, I'd like to know that as well. I'm not an amateur videophile, nor do I aspire to be.

Once in a while recording shows OTA and converting some (not many) VHS to DVD.

Thanks,

String

[edDV]

I can't recommend any current models since I haven't tested them but I can answer your other questions.

The FCC banned import/manufacture of VCR/DVD recorders with NTSC only tuners in 2007. Old inventory could still be sold. New units needed to have an ATSC tuner or no tuner.

Back then ASTC tuners were still rather expensive. People who were subscribers to cable or satellite had no need for an ATSC tuner. They simply connect to the cable/sat tuner with composite or S-Video and RCA audio.

Second, there is no benefit to using a Sony DVD recorder with a Sony TV other than possible remote control compatibility. Most remotes from other manufacturers can be programmed to control a Sony TV.

[FulciLives]

I would probably either go with the Philips DVDR3506/37 which is a DVD recorder (no built-in VHS nor HDD) or the Magnavox H2160MW9 which is a DVD recorder (no built-in VHS but you get a 160GB HDD). Both models have a built-in ATSC OTA digital tuner. Both can be purchased at WALLMART.COM

No combo recording unit gives good quality. If you need VHS playback then you are better off just buying a VHS VCR by itself or a cheap DVD/VHS combo (the non DVD recording type).

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[lacywest]

Hello ... StringDriver

Well some people mentioned what they use ... here is my two cents.

I've got the Panasonic DMR EZ27 DVD Recorder in the living room ... my Sony TV 51" cannot pick up digital broadcasts. Our Directv is turned off.

My wife and I ... decided to let her daughter and her son move in with us [they were in Alaska ... marriage gone bad] well Cassandra and Steven have taken over the living room setup and I hang out in the Garage with my HTPC or hang out in the bedroom ... both these areas are setup for me to enjoy.

The living room setup was rocking ... until the dog or the puppies chewed the speaker wire feeding the back channel speakers.

Any ways ... the Panasonic DMR EZ27 has a digital tuner in it and receives quite a few stations in our area ... Zip Code 93230.

Just to see what it can do for compatible reasons ... I have a DMR EH50 with 100GB hardddrive ... and wanted to see if a DVD RAM disk can be burnt on the EZ27 using the 4 HR mode and then be played on the EH50 in my bedroom ... and how good is the quality of the movie.

Nope ... the EH50 could not read it. But ... I have a Panasonic DVD Burner mounted in my HTPC in my garage. Yes ... PowerDVD played it and VirtualDub 1.8.7 - Dec 2008 ... could open it and play it and if needed ... edit it.

Quality of recording in 4 HR mode ... hey I was pleased.

Specs from Virtualdub ... 720x480 ... Average Bitrate 2370 Kbps
Audio ... 48KHz Stereo ... 256Kbps AC-3

Yes ... I could record with a higher bitrate but then I would need to change disks more often ... I wanted to see how good the image was using the 4 hours mode.

Does not have a EPG .... but you can program what channel and Day and hour ... start ... stop. So go online to www.tvguide.com/listings ... and use the info to program your TV show.

Or I can switch to TV Sat on my Pioneer Receiver and use the guide on Directv ... that is still working ... to see what is coming on that night and Directv still shows what is coming on days in advance ... that is also still working. I can still watch Directv ... but only the local channels being fed into the HR10-250 from the antenna. As long as I leave it on the channel I want to watch ... I can also rewind and fast forward the current show being displayed ... but only the Antenna shows.

Im going to have to figure out how to pay the Directv bill though ... I dont want to miss .. Dexter ... Californication ... Weeds ... and True Blood. And it would be nice to be able to watch the last episodes of BattleStar Galactica before it ends.

[StringDriver]

Thanks, everyone, for your replies.

It's clear that I was not informed enough to make a good decision. Lesson learned.

Nice to hear, also, an opinion that combo units won't yield a good recorder for DVD's.

I hooked up my old DVD player via RCA's as the other unit went Bye Bye to Laredo, TX - Sony Returns...

I will look further into and research the various models mentioned.

Won't it be fun when we can search online (via smartphone, maybe), find what we want and point the phone at the DVR without all the hassle? I'm sure those days are not too far away.

Thanks again. You've all been a big help.

String (Ron)

StringDriver comes from:

Playing Guitar
Sewing (I'm a Pfaffanista)
Building and Flying Kites (custom and commercially-made; single-line; dual-line and quad...)

All of which have strings that are "driven"

Jessincaseyuuerinterstedd