Cheap TV to use as a decent ntsc monitor?

[sdsumike619]

So I've been using this Toshiba 19" TV/VCR combo as a makeshift monitor (my application isn't THAT critical)...However, I can no longer access the menu to adjust the brightness/contrast controls because the sensor on the TV stopped working and the only way to access that menu is via the remote.

One thing I noticed on this Toshiba is that when you go to the menu to change the color controls, it actually brightens the screen so when i was looking at the color bars, I had to exit the menu completely to see what they looked like so that wasn't too good.

Ideally, I'd like to have a TV that has the color controls accessible from buttons on the TV in case I can't use the remote anymore like what happened with the Toshiba.

So I need to buy a new cheapy TV to use as a monitor.. I'm sure I'm not the only one that isn't using a pro ntsc monitor so does anyone have any recommendations for decent ones to use?

Please move my post if it's not in the right forum..

[julitomg]

After I assembled my editing PC, I bought a 13" Sony Wega (model KV-13FS100). It´s not a PRO monitor but has great picture (for my porpouses). It blends nicely with my editing space and even matches the design of the PC´s monitor (a Flatron CRT LG); both are silver and flat.
Since the Sony Wega doesn´t have a "blue only" adjustment I did it "by eye"...comparing the image and trying to match it with my miniDV cam´s LCD screen (wich feeds the Sony TV via it´s audio/video RCAs) and the computer´s CRT monitor. Luckily the Wega has several adjustments including sharpness and color temperature.

[sdsumike619]

I read on another forum that you can get NTSC monitors for as low as a couple hundred dollars.. Is this true? Seems to me that if I'm going to spend $100 on a TV, I should spend another $100 or so for an actual NTSC monitor....?

[edDV]

I read on another forum that you can get NTSC monitors for as low as a couple hundred dollars.. Is this true? Seems to me that if I'm going to spend $100 on a TV, I should spend another $100 or so for an actual NTSC monitor....?

A monitor is supposed to be calibrated and show accurate colors but is intended to display the picture exactly as it is with all imperfections visible. This is so you can correct the signal externally to make it look pretty at the signal level.

A TV is supposed to make anything sent to it look pretty by automatic correction.

These are two different and contradictory roles. The best compromise is to find a "TV" that allows you to switch off most of the automatic correction functions.

[sdsumike619]

automatic corrections functions such as.......?

[edDV]

Auto Gain
Auto Black
Color shift (saturation and Hue) to favor flesh tones
Noise Reduction
Edge Enhancement
Subcarrier Suppression (dot crawl)

That sort of thing.

[sdsumike619]

Do you know of any specific televisions that

allow you to switch off most of the automatic correction functions.

?

[edDV]

Do you know of any specific televisions that

allow you to switch off most of the automatic correction functions.

?

Look for the cheapest model of their mainstream line. The upper models have more of the auto features. Download the manual and see if the menu allows their various processors to be turned off. All this assumes you will want to turn them on for watching normal TV and DVD.

Avoid composite inputs, look for S-Video and analog component inputs. These get less processing in the TV.

[gshelley61]

Another alternative is to get a used editing or medical monitor instead of a cheap TV.

Search eBay for "Sony PVM" and "Sony GVM"

You will see that there are high resolution editing and medical monitors available. Thes units have no TV tuners in them, and no video processing circuits that enhance or clean up the signal. Many are capable of displaying 600 lines of resolution (the Super Fine Pitch models). Excellent picture quality.

[sdsumike619]

How abou this one:

http://www.sanyo.com/industrial/security/monitors/color/index.cfm?productID=1078

it says 800 lines of resolution,, but can it be calibrated?

[sdsumike619]

Look for the cheapest model of their mainstream line.

What brand are you referring to what you said "their" ?

[edDV]

Here is an example of a Sony "monitor".

The 29" PVM-Q is more of a studio monitor that assumes a clean signal in and can be used for control room, audience or talent monitor purposes. This used one is $350 on craiglist.
http://austin.craigslist.org/ele/214496748.html
A properly calibrated set like this will make great video look great but it will make no effort to make poor video look better.

The Sony BVM and Ikegami monitors are instruments for technical evaluation of the video signal, the Sony PVM is a budget version of the BVM for less critical applications.

TV sets are TV sets. You need to choose one and match your various sources to that. Start by calibrating it to the SMPTE NTSC color bar or THX test patterns off your PC.

http://www.thx.com/mod/products/dvd/optimizerIntro.html
http://www.indianapolisfilm.net/article.php?story=20040117004721902
http://www.videouniversity.com/tvbars2.htm

[sdsumike619]

So even though this:

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=productlist&A=details&Q=&sku=433566&...goryNavigation

has no blue only switch for calibration, it would still be much better than using a TV?

[edDV]

The JVC security monitor emphasizes picture detail. Medical monitors emphasize color calibration.

Monitors like these are good to use as a reference for filtering or matching edit sources but are not a TV. They often lack tuners and don't correct errors. If your cable system is perfect, then fine. But if levels vary by channel, you will be readjusting for each channel.

Blue mode is great for setting saturation and hue to theoretical levels from a color bar or THX pattern. If you lack the blue mode, you can use the THX glasses. THX recently lowered price from $3 to $1.

http://www.co-store.com/thx


PS: Remember the production process is not to adjust the monitor to make the video look good, you adjust the video parameters to make the video look good on a calibrated monitor (hands off the monitor adjustments).

[sdsumike619]

I guess what I'm trying ask is if the cheapest "monitor" i.e. the JVC Presentation monitors at B&H are better to use than a regular TV for the purpose of an external preview in Vegas?

such as
JVC TM-A13SU - 13" - $209
JVC TM-21A2U - 21" - $219
JVC TM-A13UCV - 13" - $235

Why is the 21" around the same price as the 13" ones?

[edDV]

Yes, the monitors are built for that task, especially the PVM and BVM and similar models from JVC, Panasonic and Ikegami.

TV sets can be used for edit monitoring if you understand their limitations.

Likewize, a monitor can be used as a TV if you understand it may need more adjusting when changing video sources.


I once had 3 of these (mid 90's vintage).
http://www.broadcaststore.com/store/model_detail.cfm?id=5064

Here are a bunch of used ones. They may need internal calibration to be usable. Ask about calibration before you buy a used model. Internal calibration adjustments include linearity, color componet balance, RGB channel gammas, etc. and are considered service center adjustments. "External" or system calibration controls include the normal contrast, brightness, saturation and hue (plus master gamma and setup switches for NTSC)
http://www.broadcaststore.com/store/prod_search_results.cfm?category_search=508

[edDV]

Why is the 21" around the same price as the 13" ones?

The big ones are for viewing at a distance. The 13" ones are usually viewed from inches away and more critically.

[sdsumike619]

Ok, I'm starting to look for a bottom line here.. For doing NLE in Vegas, should I buy a ~$200 JVC monitor, or should I buy a TV with an S-Video input? Trying to determine if the inexpensive monitor is worth while or not.

[sdsumike619]

LoL at the thinker picture =)

[edDV]

Ok, I'm starting to look for a bottom line here.. For doing NLE in Vegas, should I buy a ~$200 JVC monitor, or should I buy a TV with an S-Video input? Trying to determine if the inexpensive monitor is worth while or not.

If I was doing expensive client work, I'd get or rent a good monitor.

For routine DV home editing, I use a consumer HDTV CRT monitor hooked up IEEE-1394 (from Vegas or Premiere) to ADVC-100 (or DV camcorder) then S-Video to the Philips HDTV*.

I calibrate everything to the Vegas DV SMPTE color bar (using the THX blue glasses).

I also feed a cheap 20" APEX TV (no comb filter) with NTSC to watch for overscan and buzzing NTSC colors. I also check any graphics or titles on the cheap monitor for readability. This is for evaluating your material in a worse case (maybe typical) viewing condition. In a similar manner, it is routine for a pro audio mix studio to have 4" car radio speakers for sound mix evaluation.

The CRT HDTV cost me $525, the APEX was $89 at K-Mart.


*FWIW I also have YPbPr going from the ATI AIW HDTV adapter to the CRT HDTV for other purposes as 480i/480p or 1080i. Alternately VGA can be connected to the HDTV as 480p or 540p. Plus, of course a DVD player (Pioneer with "cinema" inverse telecine) feeds the HDTV with 480p or 480i.

[edDV]

BTW as part of the calibration I make a test DVD (Vegas + Architect) with the SMPTE color bars (authored 16-235) and adjust the Pioneer DVD player for levels match 7.5-100IRE at the HDTV monitor. The DVD SMPTE bar playback is matched to the reference output of the ADVC-100 (setup switch on) for black, white, saturation and hue. That way all paths will match at the monitor. When a DV camcorder is used in the Vegas to monitor reference path, 0-100IRE monitor calibration must be used. Luckily the Pioneer DVD player has two custom preset settings (i.e set to 7.5-100IRE and 0-100IRE).

[JohnnyMalaria]

the sensor on the TV stopped working and the only way to access that menu is via the remote.

Have you verified this is the problem? Could it be the remote control?

[sdsumike619]

It's not the remote control, I got a replacement one and it did not work either...

I went ahead and bought a 20" Samsung from circuit city that has menu access controls ON the TV itself, as well as S-Video input.. I like it and it's working well for me.