Sony & Panasonic Launch New HIGH DEF Consumer MPEG-4 Camcorder Format!

[Specialist]

Sony & Panasonic team up to create "AVCHD" - a brand new high definition format for camcorders based on H.264 MPEG-4:

http://tinyurl.com/lv2zz

From Panasonic:

http://tinyurl.com/hy8hf

Jerry Jones
http://www.jonesgroup.net

[BJ_M]

looks like a format that will fail ...

"We think a disc will be more efficient and user friendly,"

are they on drugs ?

12 minutes per side on an 8 cm DVD,

are they on drugs and nuts ? -- 24 minutes total per disk , and you have to flip it half way at the 12 minute mark doesnt sound very user friendly ... never mind the fact that h264 is not so edit friendly - though at that bitrate - should look wonderful ...

looks like this is targeted to low end consumer - the same idiots that would buy a dvd camcorder ... but think since it says HD, it must be the best ,,,, i would take hi8 with a top of the line broadcast camcorder over this (which has great lens btw)

[Specialist]

Panasonic will also be devising the method for recording HD video onto SD cards using the new AVCHD format:

http://tinyurl.com/hy8hf

Jerry Jones
http://www.jonesgroup.net

[BJ_M]

well that is more useless -- 3 minutes per 1 Gb SD card ....

they tried this already and it failed in their pro line ...

i like Panasonic - they make great stuff --- but this is nothing more than selling to the lowest common denominator ....

[Specialist]

Please reveal where you got those ALLEGED numbers.

I suspect the numbers you're throwing out there may be wildly inaccurate.

Jerry Jones
http://www.jonesgroup.net

[Cornucopia]

I don't know...

I've got 18Mbps = 2.25MBps = 135MB/min.

IIRC, 8cm DVD-R's are 1.2GB = 1228.8MB

So should hold ~9 1/4 min.
Dual-sided would be ~19 1/2 min.

SD Cards like Panasonic is selling (the "P2", as used in the HVX200--a sweet camera, BTW!!) go for 1, 2, 4 GB and later this year (fall?) 8GB.

That would equate to:

1GB = 7.5 Min.
2GB = 15 Min.
4GB = 30 1/3 Min.
8GB = 60 2/3 Min.

So, it is a pisser at the lowest end, but could be quite workable at the high end.
Assuming they got all the kinks worked out on the realtime AVC encoding chip, this could be quite reasonable. Yes, it's 4:2:0, but that can be "bumped up" in post. Yes, it's LongGOP, but there are already workarounds, both on the consumer and the pro end.
What I like is the fact that they're giving you good choices on the audio end. I can't support HDV's spec of MP2, 224kbps, stereo. But with AC3 and LPCM choices, and Multichannel options to boot, that's something you can play with! Now, if they'd only give you enough input connections...

Personally, I think it could be good for consumers. It'll teach them to shoot small segments again like the old 8mm film days (editing "in camera"), rather than clicking the record button and pointing at everything under the sun continously for hours.

Scott

[Specialist]

I think the numbers are premature until we know more.

Why do I say this?

Because the 18 MEGABITS per second figure announced by Sony and Panasonic may only refer to the MAXIMUM quality potential of the new AVCHD format, which means a 720p picture, for example, would not require anything close to that data rate.

I think we need to see some more information from Sony and Panasonic to know for sure.

Jerry Jones
http://www.jonesgroup.net

[BJ_M]

who is bruce ?

and -
i got those numbers off the links you just posted ...

[Specialist]

Well I've looked again at the stories referenced by the links I posted and I don't see those numbers that you quoted.

Sorry, I thought you were Bruce.

Jerry Jones
http://www.jonesgroup.net

[BJ_M]

here is the official
news release

http://www.sony.net/SonyInfo/News/Press/200605/06-0511E/index.html

[BJ_M]

Well I've looked again at the stories referenced by the links I posted and I don't see those numbers that you quoted.

Sorry, I thought you were Bruce.

Jerry Jones
http://www.jonesgroup.net

.................. According to the article, they are trying to force HD onto EXISTING 8 cm DVD's. That means it's not a Blu-ray camcorder at all. It also means that you won't get more than 12 minutes per side on an 8 cm DVD, which now holds 20 minutes when recording at 9300 bps variable-bitrate. If so, it's not nearly as interesting an announcement as it could be!

[Specialist]

I suspect that is an EDITORIAL COMMENT that you've just posted and it doesn't accurately reflect the true nature of the new Sony/Panasonic AVCHD format.

Read this from the APPLE Web site:

"H.264 delivers the same quality as MPEG-2 at a third to half the data rate and up to four times the frame size of MPEG-4 Part 2 at the same data rate."

http://tinyurl.com/8875c

H.264 is not the same as older versions of MPEG-4.

Jerry Jones
http://www.jonesgroup.net

[Specialist]

By the way, thanks for posting that official Sony news release.

If you read it carefully, you will see my point.

They are revealing in that schematic that their HIGHEST QUALITY SETTING will be a PROGRESSIVE FRAME, 1080/24p!!

That means the less data-intensive 1080i/720p formats won't require as much space on the disc.

It will be interesting to see how efficient they can get the codec when they release all of the numbers.

Again, I believe we still need more information.

Jerry Jones
http://www.jonesgroup.net

[Specialist]

Also, note how the AUDIO OPTION can be either AC-3 *OR* the more data intensive LPCM.

Most users will want AC-3 for both high quality and maximum disc space savings.

Jerry Jones
http://www.jonesgroup.net

[edDV]

This seems to be an extension of P2 card technology that gets bandwidth by parallel SD technology? So far, bandwidth can be achieved with 4-8 parallel SD but capacity is the shortcoming.

Pro's shoot in short segments. Consumers don't want 10-20 flash cards that need to be sorted into the right sequence.

[BJ_M]

i am quite familiar with all types of mpeg compression as well as a couple 100 other codecs


and one thing you should NEVER do is quote any info posted by or read in an apple ad or from their website - they are quite known for not exactly "the facts" ..


don't think i am proposing that HDV is the end all to beat all ... it is not ... but this "new" system doesnt seem to be a whole lot better - at least in terms of 'edit quality' or user friendly ....

as anyone would know who has worked with any of these compression schemes -- such as HDV (mpeg2), AVC, VC1 , (or any mpeg4) or other highly compressed formats , and used used them for professional uses or used them in composites or blown up -- there is a HELL of a lot of problems with those formats ...

and lastly -- disks (these types) are just not a great format for recording for a number of reasons which have been expounded upon numerousness times ... recording on to 25-50Gb BR disks is not so bad though .... at least some good space ....

[Specialist]

Note how they're also offering a 720/24p PROGRESSIVE recording option!

http://tinyurl.com/lv2zz

Jerry Jones
http://www.jonesgroup.net

[BJ_M]

Also, note how the AUDIO OPTION can be either AC-3 *OR* the more data intensive LPCM.

Most users will want AC-3 for both high quality and maximum disc space savings.

Jerry Jones
http://www.jonesgroup.net

notice 7.1 (LPCM only) ? plus 5.1 ac3 as options ...

dont know how this is going to be pulled off in the first version - but makes for some interesting speculation for future uses ... though mono audio is more than good enough for most home use (though you could never sell someone on that )

[BJ_M]

Note how they're also offering a 720/24p PROGRESSIVE recording option!

http://tinyurl.com/lv2zz

Jerry Jones
http://www.jonesgroup.net

if it was 1080 30p i could get more excited -- 24per second always looked like crap - is still crap and will always be crap .... it was a cost savings measure only -- not a quality thing ...


at least 720/60p is an option

[Specialist]

I respectfully disagree with you.

1. This format pretty much makes the tape-based "HDV" format obsolete.

2. I suspect APPLE may have seen the future clearly when the company chose to include H.264/MPEG-4 support in the new Quicktime architecture because it will be only a matter of time before they're able to devise a "SMART RENDER" mechanism into Final Cut Pro for H.264... just as they have already done for HDV.

3. I think the small DVD discs are just the beginning. Panasonic already is talking about SD cards, but I think there's nothing to keep manufacturers from recording the AVCHD format to HDD (hard disk) camcorders with much higher capacity... not to mention future Blu-ray camcorders.

The proof of the pudding is in the eating, however, and until we actually SEE the video recorded by these new camcorders, neither one of us can be certain.

I am more optimistic about this new format, however.

Regards,

Jerry Jones
http://www.jonesgroup.net

[BJ_M]

my name is not bruce - really ...



the apple H264 codec is prob. about the worse one around ....

if you want to use h264 as a editing format - fine ... i dont think either that HDV will be around forever - but it will be around for some time, it is not obsolete by any means
.... what i would like to see is avchd on tape at 25meg , with 2 channel only ac3 @ < 224 bit rate... WITH (real) timecode ...



and -- i HAVE seen the video produced by these camcorders - several months ago in fact ....

[Specialist]

You seem to be giving APPLE too much credit for H.264.

H.264 was not developed by APPLE.

APPLE has decided to adopt it.

So have many other companies.

The AVCHD is just one format based on H.264.

I suspect what you saw may not have been AVCHD.

Sorry, I got your name wrong again.

By the way, what is your name?

Jerry Jones
http://www.jonesgroup.net

[BJ_M]

ive seen it - trust me ..

my name is on the DMN Sony forum, where i am a moderator



im not giving apple credit for anything - not sure where you got that idea ... i know quite well how the standard was developed .....

[Specialist]

If you believe you've already seen it, then great.

I wish to withhold final evaluation of this new format until I've had a chance to see it.

But - as I said - I'm optimistic about this format's chance for widespread adoption.

Jerry Jones
http://www.jonesgroup.net

[whitejremiah]

i've worked with h.264 in the past a few times, yes, it can definately crunch a video pretty good and make it still look great in the process....on the downside though, it's such a headache to edit that i LITERALLY take the outputs and convert them to some lossless format such as huffyuv or the lageroth codec just because they are that much of a pain in the neck to work with....i suspect once they can put some serious interal space (or even external space through huge memory cards....think a few years down the line, most likely) say 50-100gb of space or so, then these things will have some good end user uses...in the mean time, im not too sure that many people will be willing to use hd settings just cuz it's a little too restrictive (even at like one hour of video, there's people who use video cameras for stuff like recording parades and that type of thing, which can last for like 2+ hours........that being said though, these things do have potential uses for when things like blu ray and/or hd dvd become readily available in a writeable form (particularly the 7.1 audio, though i personally do realize that it's definately overkill for home video, and even 5.1 is generally overkill....though i wouldnt go so far as to say mono is acceptable....i say stereo is probably best for this type of thing)

[raffie]

I dont get how they're messing about with this type of idiocy. It's quite obvious HDV-recording isnt going to be a tape format, but it's even less going to be a DVD-disc type of format. If a 40GB hard drive fits in a i-Pod, why isnt every HDV-camcorder fitted with one?
SD-cards will do the job too, in the near future, since 16GB cards already exist. But 1.4GB miniDVD's for 12 minutes of HDV per side? Come on...

[lenti_75]

this is garbage.....new technology on old media.....and that is a tiny 8cm dvd....WHAT A CRAP...

just use a ******* hdd or cassette and stop ******* with those 10 min / disc...this is the JOKE OF THE YEAR.....unless you carry another bag with discs....

[DVWannaB]

this is garbage.....new technology on old media.....and that is a tiny 8cm dvd....WHAT A CRAP...

just use a ******* hdd or cassette and stop ******* with those 10 min / disc...this is the JOKE OF THE YEAR.....unless you carry another bag with discs....

Classic..........................post of the year for me

[satviewer2000]

I have both the Sony 1080i HDV camcorder AND the Sanyo Xacti 720p "toy" camcorder which uses an SD card. It's probably true that at some future point, "solid state" memory (eg. SD card) will replace tape and hard drive based storage methods. But it'll be quite a while. As you can see in any electronics store, MiniDV tapes are still the most commonly used storage medium for camcorders. Why?

1. It's cheap. From a storage point of view, you get about 30GB out of a typical miniDV tape. This is very cost effective compared to other storage mediums (presently).

2. It's durable. In fact, there's many reports out now that the magnetic tapes that were used DECADES ago for storing video and data are the way to go for long term storage. DVDs, CDs, hard drives, apparently have a much shorter lifespan than good old tapes.

3. It's old but proven technology. The mechanisms which drive tape recording are much more resistant to breakage. Shakes, drops, etc are less likely to damage a tape recorder as compared to a DVD or HD based camcorder. For a portable device that has a high risk of being dropped, that's obviously an issue.

4. It's portable, like a DVD (compared to a hard drive).

5. The playback and recording quality for HDV is far superior to the Sanyo 720p. In fact, comparing the 2, I really cannot see much improvement in quality from the Sanyo as compared to a decent standard def camcorder. For the Sony HDV, you get near professional quality videos. The Sanyo is a nice little handy camcorder but it's really just a toy for very casual use.

[InXess]

6. you can keep your stuff on miniDV for as long as it lasts. No need to transfer unlike with memory cards, HDD cams. 30 Gig storage will cost you 5 bucks or less. What if you run out of space on a HDD cam? No way you can buy another drive for 5$, pop it in and continue shooting.