Pioneer DVR-531H-s ... Video Samples of Various Recording Modes

[FulciLives]

Hello

I have a Pioneer DVR-531H-s and I am very happy with it.

People are always asking about the quality of different DVD recorders and the different recording speeds ... so I made a test ... at least for my model DVD recorder.

Here is what I did ...

I ripped the USA NTSC DVD release of THE ROCKY HORROR PICTURE SHOW [1975] ... click on the title to see the actual DVD that I used (there are 2 different releases). I used the one you see in the link. It can be bought for $9.99 or less.

Anyways I ripped it and made a back-up (without compression) so I could play it back without any copy protection issues. I used a Sony PS2 as my DVD player and used the Composite Video output and RCA Stereo outputs to connect to my Pioneer DVR-531H-s and although the movie is anamorphic 16x9 WS I set the PS2 for 4:3 WS output (instead of 16x9 TV output) so as to get a "standard output" for the Pioneer DVD recorder ... since most of us can't record anamorphic from cable/satellite boxes this seemed to be the way to go.

I took a short segment ... the TIME WARP sequence ... and recorded it 5 times:

1.) In the XP or 1 Hour Mode
2.) In the SP or 2 Hour Mode
3.) In the MN15 Mode which is the 3 Hour Mode
4.) In the LP or 4 Hour Mode
5.) In the EP or 6 Hour Mode

The first 3 modes all recorded at Full D1 resolution (720x480) whereas the LP mode recorded at Half D1 resolution (352x480) and finally the EP mode recorded at a resolution of 352x240 which is what the VCD format uses.

In fact the one weak point of the Pioneer DVD recorders are that they use Full D1 (720x480) at the MN15/3 Hour Mode instead of using Half D1 (352x480). To the best of my knowledge only (some of the more newer models) of Panasonics mimic the Pioneers in this way whereas most other makes are "smart" and use Half D1 (352x480) at the 3 Hour Mode.

Anyways ...

In order to best illustrate the differences I made a composite DVD using TMPGEnc DVD Author. The DVD has the original segment from the original DVD (in 16x9 WS) and then the same sequence again, as recorded, in the 5 different modes. This way someone can pop this "test" DVD into their DVD player and see for themselves what each of the different modes will look like. The only trick is that since the original is 16x9 WS and the recordings are standard 4:3 WS then one doing the testing should set the DVD player for the "4:3 TV LETTERBOXED" mode even if one has a 16x9 WS TV so that the original clip appears in the same way as the 5 copies. This way all clips will be widescreen in a 4:3 window.

The DVD is in a standard DVD Video ISO IMAGE file. Unfortunately it is rather large at approximately 1.28 GB in size.

Therefore I am at a bit of a loss on how to share it with the on-line community and I am open to suggestions ... the only idea I have so far is to make a torrent file OR use WinRAR to cut the single ISO IMAGE file into smaller chunks for website posting but that would probably require posting it across MANY "free" websites.

What to do?!?!?

In the mean time I may go through the footage and post some screen shots but it can't compare to actually watching the clips yourself on a TV.

So is anyone interested in this? ... and if so I again please ask that people suggest the best way for me to distribute this on-line without having to purhcase costly website space etc.

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[FulciLives]

Well I made the ISO IMAGE file into a torrent but since I would be the only seeder it will probably take a LONG time (although I do have a fast cable modem internet connection).

This will have to do for now ...

The torrent file is called RHPS_TEST.ISO.torrent and the ISO IMAGE file is called RHPS_TEST.ISO

Click the torrent file to download it ---> RHPS_TEST.ISO.torrent

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[redwudz]

I'm DLing it right now. I'll leave it running and seed it for as long as possible. If a few more do the same, it should pick up some DL speed in a while. It's about 2K presently.

I'm interested to see the comparison. I haven't used my Pioneer 633-H in a week or two and still haven't comprehended the owners manual completely.

[FulciLives]

I'm loading the VOB files directly into VEGAS 6 in order to take some screen shots and I've noticed a big difference in the brightness/contrast of the original DVD vs the Pioneer recordings.

I had the Pioneer set for a 7.5 IRE BLACK source but I have a feeling now that the Sony PS2 that I was using as my source DVD player might have been outputting 0.0 IRE BLACK instead of 7.5 IRE BLACK ... I say this since the recordings look different than the source.

However the Sony PS2 was used for each of the 5 playings and the recording settings were all the same (other than the time mode which adjusts only the bitrate and frame size used) were the same on each recording ... SO ... it still makes sense to compare the XP mode to the EP mode etc.

But why they don't match the original source better I don't know other than what I said about the IRE levels.

I might try to set the recorder to a 0.0 IRE BLACK source and try again one time just to see if the match is better between the source and recording in terms of brightness/contrast. However I don't plan on doing it all over again ... as I said the test is still valid as it is.

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[FulciLives]

OK ... here are some screen grabs:

Original DVD Pic 01 (16x9 WS)


Original DVD Pic 02 (16x9 WS)



Pioneer XP - 1 Hour Mode Pic 01


Pioneer XP - 1 Hour Mode Pic 02



Pioneer SP - 2 Hour Mode Pic 01


Pioneer SP - 2 Hour Mode Pic 02



Pioneer MN15 - 3 Hour Mode Pic 01


Pioneer MN15 - 3 Hour Mode Pic 02



Pioneer LP - 4 Hour Mode Pic 01


Pioneer LP - 4 Hour Mode Pic 02



Pioneer EP - 6 Hour Mode Pic 01


Pioneer EP - 6 Hour Mode Pic 02

[Kalos Geros]

Recordings over composite will always look less sharp than original - using S-video would have produced better samples, I believe...also, by using 4:3 letterbox for recording and not true 16:9 anamorphic you practically upped the bitrate used for picture encoding since black bars top and bottom compress perfectly using up maybe just a few bits, so more bandwidth is available for the actual movie picture, making it look somewhat better than it would normaly be in most situations. I belive staying with original 16:9 anamorphic aspect would be closer to real world recording environment because the whole frame would be moving and wold be liable to be included in the bandwidth...nice effort though...congrats...

[FulciLives]

Recordings over composite will always look less sharp than original - using S-video would have produced better samples, I believe...also, by using 4:3 letterbox for recording and not true 16:9 anamorphic you practically upped the bitrate used for picture encoding since black bars top and bottom compress perfectly using up maybe just a few bits, so more bandwidth is available for the actual movie picture, making it look somewhat better than it would normaly be in most situations. I belive staying with original 16:9 anamorphic aspect would be closer to real world recording environment because the whole frame would be moving and wold be liable to be included in the bandwidth...nice effort though...congrats...

My PS2 came with composite video and I bought component video cables but had no S-Video. So I had to use the composite. The PS2 is the only DVD player I have now besides the recorder (normally I don't use the PS2 for DVD Video playback). You know you can't just plug in a regular S-Video for the PS2 and I wasn't going to buy the special PS2 S-Video cable just for this test.

Also I didn't record anamorphic because when do you use a stand alone DVD recorder to do anamorphic?

Hardly any cable or satellite boxes can output anamorphic to a stand alone DVD recorder.

I think my test is very valid.

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[cyflyer]

Difficult to compare the 4 hr and 6 hr screen shots cos they're squished to half the size of the others.
Because I'm just doing some vhs to dvd captures with a Sony GX210 lets talk in laymans terms. Do we assume that 1hr mode equates to normal dvd quality ?, 2hr mode equates to normal vhs quality etc ? If I'm capturing some old b&w movies from vhs to dvd and setting the 2hr mode, and its within 2hrs I'll have the same quality as my videotape, and if its 2 1/2 hours which I record at the 2hr mode (on two rw's)and later compress on the computer to a dvd, am I getting less than my vhs quality ?

[The_Doman]

Also I didn't record anamorphic because when do you use a stand alone DVD recorder to do anamorphic?

Hardly any cable or satellite boxes can output anamorphic to a stand alone DVD recorder.

Why would this be a problem?
You could record it as normal 4:3 source and adjust your manually for the 16:9 format (Or better reauthor with the 16:9 flag)
It works even with that Hauppauge PVR card...
Hauppauge UK forum: pvr150 and s-video from sky.

Also some testing with a true interlaced source (action/sports) would be nice too.
Much more difficult to capture compared to a movie dvd source.

[gshelley61]

I had the Pioneer set for a 7.5 IRE BLACK source but I have a feeling now that the Sony PS2 that I was using as my source DVD player might have been outputting 0.0 IRE BLACK instead of 7.5 IRE BLACK ... I say this since the recordings look different than the source.
- John "FulciLives" Coleman

Yes, that appears to be the case... the blacks are crushed in your caps. It is highly likely that the PS2 does not add 7.5 IRE of setup on it's video output (sends a 0-100 IRE gray scale signal instead of 7.5-100 IRE), so you would want to record with the Pioneer set to 0 IRE input video black level in this case. Same goes for recording from a digital camcorder using it's analog video output. The consumer MiniDV and Digital8 camcorders sold in North America don't add any black level setup to their analog outs, either.

[FulciLives]

Difficult to compare the 4 hr and 6 hr screen shots cos they're squished to half the size of the others.
Because I'm just doing some vhs to dvd captures with a Sony GX210 lets talk in laymans terms. Do we assume that 1hr mode equates to normal dvd quality ?, 2hr mode equates to normal vhs quality etc ? If I'm capturing some old b&w movies from vhs to dvd and setting the 2hr mode, and its within 2hrs I'll have the same quality as my videotape, and if its 2 1/2 hours which I record at the 2hr mode (on two rw's)and later compress on the computer to a dvd, am I getting less than my vhs quality ?

Well that is why I made the test DVD ISO IMAGE FILE so people could download it ... burn it ... then watch it themselves.

When using your own model of DVD recorder you need to be aware of two things. One is the recording modes. For instance some DVD recorders only have a few fixed modes like 1 Hour, 2 Hour, 3 Hour, 4 Hour etc. whereas some have some sort of "flexible" recording time where you can pick exactly "X" number of minutes and have the bitrate match that running time.

The 2nd big thing is to know when the DVD recorder switches from using Full D1 resolution to Half D1 resolution. Some do this around the 2 1/2 hour mark while others do not do it until much later (I think my Pioneer doesn't switch to Half D1 until roughly 220 minutes or 3 Hours and 40 minutes).

Why is it important to know all this?

Let's say your VHS is 2 1/2 hours long. Let's say your DVD recorder doesn't switch to Half D1 until 2 hours and 40 minutes. You can either record at 2 1/2 hours and just fit it on the DVD disc at Full D1 or you can use the 2 hour 40 minute mark and "waste" 10 minutes of bitrate BUT at Half D1 that may be the better choice.

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[FulciLives]

Also I didn't record anamorphic because when do you use a stand alone DVD recorder to do anamorphic?

Hardly any cable or satellite boxes can output anamorphic to a stand alone DVD recorder.

Why would this be a problem?
You could record it as normal 4:3 source and adjust your manually for the 16:9 format (Or better reauthor with the 16:9 flag)
It works even with that Hauppauge PVR card...
Hauppauge UK forum: pvr150 and s-video from sky.

Also some testing with a true interlaced source (action/sports) would be nice too.
Much more difficult to capture compared to a movie dvd source.

I had wanted to use a Full Screen DVD to avoid the whole 16x9 issue but the only DVD movies I have at Full Screen are older movies that don't look as good as a lot of the other movies I have that are 16x9 WS just due to the nature of the age of the films.

The reason why I played the movie back at 4:3 WS instead of 16x9 WS is that ... as I thought I made clear ... very few people use their DVD recorder for 16x9 recordings. This is because VHS and LD are not 16x9 formats and most cable/satellite boxes DO NOT output 16x9 WS on anything but component video output.

That's why I didn't play back at 16x9 WS.

It's not a limitation of the Pioneer as you seem to suggest but of the source material. Just is not much 16x9 anamorphic source material out there for stand alone DVD recorders UNLESS you record from DVD player to DVD recorder but I only did that to get a nice clean source and we all know that most DVD back-ups are of course done on a computer.

I used a DVD as my source so that I had a nice clean source to begin with ... I think starting with a clean source better shows the differences in recording modes.

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[FulciLives]

I had the Pioneer set for a 7.5 IRE BLACK source but I have a feeling now that the Sony PS2 that I was using as my source DVD player might have been outputting 0.0 IRE BLACK instead of 7.5 IRE BLACK ... I say this since the recordings look different than the source.
- John "FulciLives" Coleman

Yes, that appears to be the case... the blacks are crushed in your caps. It is highly likely that the PS2 does not add 7.5 IRE of setup on it's video output (sends a 0-100 IRE gray scale signal instead of 7.5-100 IRE), so you would want to record with the Pioneer set to 0 IRE input video black level in this case. Same goes for recording from a digital camcorder using it's analog video output. The consumer MiniDV and Digital8 camcorders sold in North America don't add any black level setup to their analog outs, either.

Well I am of the understanding that most DVD players made for the US market do output standard 7.5 IRE BLACK and since my Sony PS2 is made by a major company and is a very recent model to boot (I just bought it new as of March 2006) I just assumed it would output 7.5 IRE BLACK.

However it does appear to output 0.0 IRE BLACK.

Had I know before hand I would of set the Pioneer IRE BLACK INPUT LEVEL accordingly so the recordings match the source.

However I think the test is still valid to compare the quality of the recording speeds vs each other.

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[vhelp]

I think that the way you have been going - 4:3 letterbox - is fine, for these
tests of yours. I don't see any problems for their intended purposes.

Regarding the test..

I think that the results posted were to be expected.. in terms of this units
capabilities.

Also, I don't think we will ever get the issue with IRE levels straighten out.
It's a hit-or-miss scenerio at best. Ok.. a test and see, if you can afford
it.

Heck, even the DVD Original seemed slightely off.. based on the pic posted,
and the method I used to analize.

What I'm more concirned with, in terms of "image quality" is the single most
important, since this vcdhelp site begin (or I did, with it) and that is..
obtaining least amount of pixelaion/macroblocking in finished video MPEG.
This has always been my major concirn. And I have strived at finding ways
to perfect this area, using the tools affordable to me.

I don't care as much about IRE levels than I do about pixelation or macro-
blocks, and not to forget, detail, unless vhs, and more specialized work has
to be performed w/ comprimises. Anyways. As I noted once before in another
thread topic, and I'll mention it again here..

..fwiw

There are two things that make a good finished video presentation:

** greatest detail reproduction, and
** as little-to-no pixelation (or macroblocks)

Together, these make a very good starting point in describing as perfect a video
presentation. Master these two, and everything else (with minor tweaking/adjusting)
will (or should) fall into place, quality-wise.

As I was saying..

However, I think that DVD test scenarios (they are ok) could serve in other
areas of tests. What I'd like to see is (which is so infrequent these days)
some test scenerios, using Analog Cable. I ask, because that is my video
source these days. I do have HDTV, but IMHO, there is no cause for testing w/
DVD Recorder units, though testing from Component wires would be interesting
at a later topic. Anyways.. as I was saying..

I have Analog Cable, and using my Devices in-between have proven noisy and
problmatic. And, as such, I am considering (and playing with) an old practice
of mine.. filter-chaining, to reduce the noise, and enhance the final and
finished MPEG's.

After all, this source type is what the majority of us members here record,
be it through Capturing, or DVD recorders. And, as such, our testing on these
units would benefit more (I think) in Analog Cable as the majorities video source.

It would be interesting to see how DVD Recorders handle such noisy video
sources, (mine, at least) and review the images, (and units) then.

-vhelp 3919

[rhegedus]

Comparison with the Pioneer-5100HS......

https://forum.videohelp.com/viewtopic.php?p=862386#862386

[FulciLives]

I'm DLing it right now. I'll leave it running and seed it for as long as possible. If a few more do the same, it should pick up some DL speed in a while. It's about 2K presently.

I'm interested to see the comparison. I haven't used my Pioneer 633-H in a week or two and still haven't comprehended the owners manual completely.

I see someone has finally downloaded the entire DVD ISO IMAGE FILE as my bitorrent software says there are now 2 seeders (me and someone else).

I assume that is you? ... I am curious what you think of it.

Also just a reminder to other people to get the torrent ... probably won't be able to keep it running for much more than another week or so and it takes a long time to download.

So if you are interested in the test download it ASAP.

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[energy80s]

Interesting screen caps, although you should re-size them all up to 720x576 as this will give a better comparison of image quality. I assume that the "no cable/satellite box outputs composite anamorphic" must be a US thing, as all boxes do over here (they have to for feeding 16:9 TV's) and at least we don't have to worry about black levels. One other thing, have you noticed the way the Pioneers seem to introduce filtering for low bitrates, to avoid picture macroblocking. Even on very low bitrates my Pioneer won't macroblock, the pictures may look shite, but they aren't blocky!!

[FulciLives]

Interesting screen caps, although you should re-size them all up to 720x576 as this will give a better comparison of image quality. I assume that the "no cable/satellite box outputs composite anamorphic" must be a US thing, as all boxes do over here (they have to for feeding 16:9 TV's) and at least we don't have to worry about black levels. One other thing, have you noticed the way the Pioneers seem to introduce filtering for low bitrates, to avoid picture macroblocking. Even on very low bitrates my Pioneer won't macroblock, the pictures may look shite, but they aren't blocky!!

Well I captured the images as they were recorded. If someone wants to download them and compare them then the proper resize would be 720x480 as this is NTSC.

In the US it seems that most cable and satellite boxes ONLY do 16x9 when in HDTV mode and only do this over component or DVI or HDMI etc. and there is no way to record that with a DVD recorder. Our boxes will downsample such material to normal non HDTV resolution but also ends up making it 4:3 WS instead of 16:9 WS. Very annoying!

To be honest I rarely record over the SP speed although I have sometimes recorded "long" movies but the longest so far was maybe 2 1/2 hours which is not that much beyond the SP mode.

I'm not a fan of the 4 Hour Mode myself

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[FulciLives]

The torrent is still up for download.

I try to keep my torrent software running as much as possible so if it says there are 0 seeders that just means I'm not running the torrent software.

I've been leaving it on at least 50% or more of the time though.

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[mike1061]

Thanks for the post.
Mike

[oldfart13]

Too bad you didn't upload the file to Usenet. Easynews and Giganews currently have a 70+ day retention with 100% completetion. I still prefer to use Usenet over Torrents because of that and very fast download speeds....

[FulciLives]

Too bad you didn't upload the file to Usenet. Easynews and Giganews currently have a 70+ day retention with 100% completetion. I still prefer to use Usenet over Torrents because of that and very fast download speeds....

I have no idea on how to do any of what you just said.

The torrent is still running but only over night and during the day. In the early to late evening time I am home and I turn it off otherwise my internet speed is very slow.

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[oldfart13]

My way for uploads is to find an appropriate Usenet newsgroup, make an ISO of the DVD, break it into smaller chunks with WinRAR, produce a set of Parity files for error correction with QuickPar, open up Yenc Powerpost and load the files up and select that appropriate group. Hit "Post". Takes a couple hours to upload to the news server. That's it...

[FulciLives]

My way for uploads is to find an appropriate Usenet newsgroup, make an ISO of the DVD, break it into smaller chunks with WinRAR, produce a set of Parity files for error correction with QuickPar, open up Yenc Powerpost and load the files up and select that appropriate group. Hit "Post". Takes a couple hours to upload to the news server. That's it...

You might as well be talking Greek to me man I don't have a clue about any of that other than the WinRar part.

I'm working on a new test that will be overall small enough I hope to have it posted on a website with any luck.

No idea when it will be ready other than maybe this upcomming weekend. Maybe.

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[strongbad]

Who cares about recording from a DVD? Of course it's gonna look good no matter what recorder you use using DVD as a source. What are DVD recorders for? Recording TV content.

Here are XP screens from digital comcast cable compressed using 633 to JPG as this site won't take BMP. Boxing is perfect for showing what an encoding chip can do because the action is fast and you can see how the Pioneer reproduces and masks the mosquito noises and macroblocking.