Sony Vegas - Is frameserving to CCE really worth it???

[tarrickb]

I just wanted to get some opions on whether framserving from Vegas to bypass MainConcepts encoder to use CCE is worth the trouble.
Does CCE really offer that much beneift over mainconcept?

I primarily enode DV files, captured from a satellite reciever (usually music vids) and i've always used Mainconcept. I do have the CCE encoder, but have not really had much time to experiment with it.
Please let me know what you think.

[canadateck]

Read Through this,Might give you an idea.

https://forum.videohelp.com/viewtopic.php?t=235665&start=0&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=sony

[tarrickb]

thx for that link! it is a great post.

Well what i gathered from that is in that instant, MainConcept did the worst job HOWEVER Sony's implemenation of it looked better than CCE to me!
I really don't like the noise CCE seems to introduce on the videos.
Looks like i'll be sticking with Vegas all the way through.
Thanks.

[canadateck]

Yeah seems Sony did tweak the encoder,I really am happy with it,I really dont use anything else.

[guns1inger]

Sony's implementation of MainConcept isn't as soft as Mainconcepts, and does a pretty good job. It is still softer than CCE, which can be an issue. I have also found that the 'noise' from CCE is dependent to a degree on the source material, and sometimes works in my favour. CCE is also still faster in many instances, even when frameserving. I mostly frameserve, but that is what suits me.

[InXess]

Well what i gathered from that is in that instant, MainConcept did the worst job HOWEVER Sony's implemenation of it looked better than CCE to me!

Worst job? based on what? 1 frame?

Do you have any details on Sony's" implementation" of MC?
Last time I looked at it was still MC product licensed to Sony not the other way around.

[guns1inger]

A number of vendors license the Mainconcept encoding engine - Sony and Adobe are but two of them. Both have tuned the engine for their own use, in both cases the results are superior to the standalone engine sold by Mainconcept. This is easily verifiable by anyone who has used the standalone engine, and either Sony or Adobe's version of it. The license isn't simply for a blackbox piece of code that parameters are passed to. It is for the source for modification and compilation. The outcome is still licensed as the Mainconcept product, but it is not identical to the engine that Mainconcept sells to consumers.

[InXess]

Are you just speculating or you have something more to support that (beside subjective point of view?).

Many are saying that but that's just it...words without substance. So how was it modified? Any particulars? How can you be sure that this goes beyond what is offered in standard MC Enc?

Keep in mind that MC Enc can be tweaked heavily as well (advanced settings). What makes you believe that same results cannot be accomplished in standalone MC just by expert knowledge of settings?

There is no Sony or Adobe version of it. All encoders are MC Enc licensed to them. Are you saying that they know MC better then MC? So why do they still license MC instead of making it their own? Just too much nonsense for me...

[edDV]

Are you just speculating or you have something more to support that (beside subjective point of view?).

Many are saying that but that's just it...words without substance. So how was it modified? Any particulars? How can you be sure that this goes beyond what is offered in standard MC Enc?

Keep in mind that MC Enc can be tweaked heavily as well (advanced settings). What makes you believe that same results cannot be accomplished in standalone MC just by expert knowledge of settings?

There is no Sony or Adobe version of it. All encoders are MC Enc licensed to them. Are you saying that they know MC better then MC? So why do they still license MC instead of making it their own? Just too much nonsense for me...

MC provides a SDK to the OEMs like Adobe, Sony, ULead et.al. and variable license agreements. Mainconcept has a separate site for developers.
http://www.mainconcept.com/company.shtml
http://developer.mainconcept.com/index_flash.html
http://www.mainconcept.com/press/sonic_foundry.html
http://www.mainconcept.com/press/adobe.html
http://www.mainconcept.com/press/adobe-new.html

Sony describes the encoder in this 2003 white paper.
http://download.sonymediasoftware.com/whitepapers/mpeg_overview.pdf

Adobe's Encoder
http://www.mainconcept.com/adobemedia/adobe_media_faq.html

[InXess]

Provided links make me believe even stronger that no such thing as a better "engine" for other product lines exists.

All MC's saying is to give "access to all possible encoder settings" in their SDK. This does not encompass rewriting the engine itself like some seem to suggest (see Guns1inger post).

I'm simply tired reading about it without a slightest shred of proof.

[edDV]

The SDK offers modules that can be tweaked for many kinds of MPeg applications from DVD encoding to satellite/fiber transmission to SD/HDV/HDTV editing to broadcast transmission.

Each developer company works a separate deal for modules and license terms. For instance, ULead licences the realtime MPeg2 encoding module for Video Studio that is lacking in Premiere Pro and Vegas.

Sony claims to have done special optimizations using Sony technology but I can't find the link.

[InXess]

I have hard time believing that. Wouldn't they proudly announce JOINT development of such encoder?

Sorry, but that "special encoder" business makes no sense.
https://forum.videohelp.com/viewtopic.php?p=1492900#1492900

As to encoder quality: different users different opinions, like here;
https://forum.videohelp.com/viewtopic.php?p=1367483#1367483

I bet no one would tell sitting in the chair 10 feet from the TV what particular encoder was used to make the movie, all of them have their pros and cons.

For instance, ULead licences the realtime MPeg2 encoding module for Video Studio that is lacking in Premiere Pro and Vegas.

smart encoding (like videoredo, womble etc.) as well although available as an add-on from MC, what a bummer.

As an add-on to the MPEG SDK we offer a requantization wrapper which enables dynamic bitrate changes to MPEG streams without a need to recompress. This allows for fast conversions which do not affect the quality of the original stream (for example, going from MICROMV to DVD-compliant MPEG-2 without re-encoding). As the requantizer also allows dynamically restarting recompression it is the perfect solution for high-end MPEG editing.

[edDV]

For instance, ULead licences the realtime MPeg2 encoding module for Video Studio that is lacking in Premiere Pro and Vegas.

smart encoding (like videoredo, womble etc.) as well although available as an add-on from MC, what a bummer.

Yes Video Studio's "smart encoding" seems missing too.
Premiere Pro and Vegas always want to reprocess the the entire timeline. Maybe I haven't found the setting.

[InXess]

Yes Video Studio's "smart encoding" seems missing too.
Premiere Pro and Vegas always want to reprocess the the entire timeline. Maybe I haven't found the setting.

...you need to pay-up for access to it I guess... they are too cheap, that sucks. Womble seems to get it.

[edDV]

Yes Video Studio's "smart encoding" seems missing too.
Premiere Pro and Vegas always want to reprocess the the entire timeline. Maybe I haven't found the setting.

...you need to pay-up for access to it I guess... they are too cheap, that sucks. Womble seems to get it.

I wonder if Premiere Elements or Sony Movie studio include these features. As it stands I capture and edit most MPeg2 in ULead's Video Studio.

[InXess]

I have Ulead VS 7 and 8 and as I recall one of them has smart encoding. But seems that whole encoder was from a different developer then, I may be wrong.
I use Womble MPEG Video Wizard for ready MPEG-2 projects (also sync correction etc.) and there seems to be no alternative to it. You would imagine that by spending some substantial money for Vegas you would get this BASIC feature...
Never tested Womble MPEG-2 encoder quality against leading stuff (it's a bit slow but otherwise have no opinion on encoding quality, seems to be very good though...) but its ability to frame accurate edit MPEG-2 is unbeatable, just edit, "glue" together in the timeline, output is ready in seconds (including AC-3 tracks!).

Smart encoding seems to be a rare quality now and I just don't understand it. Why reencode 1 hr clip if you want to remove 2 secs from it. I use Vegas but I'm stunned about missing scene detection (without splitting, ala Pinnacle Studio) and smart rendering. Basic features that make some simple edits a breeze.

[edDV]

I have Ulead VS 7 and 8 and as I recall one of them has smart encoding. But seems that whole encoder was from a different developer then, I may be wrong.
I use Womble MPEG Video Wizard for ready MPEG-2 projects (also sync correction etc.) and there seems to be no alternative to it. You would imagine that by spending some substantial money for Vegas you would get this BASIC feature...
Never tested Womble MPEG-2 encoder quality against leading stuff (it's a bit slow but otherwise have no opinion on encoding quality, seems to be very good though...) but its ability to frame accurate edit MPEG-2 is unbeatable, just edit, "glue" together in the timeline, output is ready in seconds (including AC-3 tracks!).

Smart encoding seems to be a rare quality now and I just don't understand it. Why reencode 1 hr clip if you want to remove 2 secs from it. I use Vegas but I'm stunned about missing scene detection (without splitting, ala Pinnacle Studio) and smart rendering. Basic features that make some simple edits a breeze.

I agree.

ULead has been using the Mainconcept SDK since Video Studio 6 and v1.4 features since VS 8. Also used in DVD Workshop and DVD Factory.

Original was named "Ulead MPEG.now" with this press release
http://www.allbusiness.com/periodicals/article/107162-1.html
http://developer.mainconcept.com/press-releases/ulead.html

[InXess]

Mainconcept MPEG PRO for Premiere does smart rendering from ver. 1.0.5 , perhaps earlier too. Don't know if compatible with Premiere Elements...

[edDV]

Mainconcept MPEG PRO for Premiere does smart rendering from ver. 1.0.5 , perhaps earlier too. Don't know if compatible with Premiere Elements...

Good to know, I'll try it.