CDRW reliability problem

[bevills1]

CDRW media I've used formats fine and is okay for a few days to a few weeks but eventually give errors, and properties show disc has no free sapce even though it has very little stored on it which requires reformatting to ifx. Then the disc is fine for a few days to a few weeks again, etc. I've used Ritek 4X CDRW and TDK 8X CDRW, and TDK seem a little better but still has same problem eventually. Are there any fixes for this problem, or are there some CDRWs more relaible? Do DVDRWs have same problem, or are DVDRWs the better way to go?

[Krispy Kritter]

What kind of errors are you seeing?

When you say they have no free space, are you checking them on the pc that created them? What app are you using?

In order to reuse free space on a disc you need to be using an app that supports multiple writes to a disc and then not close the session. In order to view/check free space available on the disc, you need to do from the application used to create.
Any other application (windows explorer for instance), will report the disc as full.

[bevills1]

These CDRWs were formatted using Nero 6 and should be able to read and write to and from just like floppy discs. From your reply it appears you may be talking about CDR not CDRW discs. Windows Explorer reports these CDRWs full even when there's less than 100 MB on them, and reformatting fixes the problem but only for a few days to a few weeks after which problem recurs.

[bevills1]

Does anyone else here use CDRW media to backup data, and has anyone else had this problem? Does anyone here use DVDRW media to backup data, and has anyone had this type problem with DVDRW media? I feel like the lonesome stranger with this problem.

[bevills1]

Finally found reasonable explanation for CDRW reliable problems at http://it.mnsfld.edu/policies/using_cd-r_media.cfm near bottom of that page. Now does anyone here know whether DVDRW is more reliable since I've thus far been unable to locate any source for DVDRW reliability?

[Skith]

DVDRW and CDRW use the same type of technology, phasechange technology, which uses a crystaline like structure as the recording base instead of dye. The write laser alters the physical properties of these crystals to change their reflectivity, unlike dye which can only only be written to once. Over time and multiple writes, these crystals become more unstable, and begin to lose their form more easily, thus resulting in data loss, errors, unusable discs, etc.

RW discs are not ment for long term storage (archive), but rather for short term storage and transport of working files. If long term storage is needed, or excessive read/writes and stability is a primary concern, DVD-RAM is a viable option. DVD-RAM is much slower because it includes extra error checking, correction, and verification, but the end result is a much more reliable medium. The down side is compatability, few DVD drives will read, let alone write to DVD-RAM discs.

I can not say how well DVD-RAM would work for archival purposes, as it also uses phase change technology, it should however prove superior to any of the RW formats.

[edit:] As far as reliablity, I remember seeing Verbatim RW media recommended often (both CD and DVD) when I last researched the subject a few months ago.

[fritzi93]

These CDRWs were formatted using Nero 6 and should be able to read and write to and from just like floppy discs. From your reply it appears you may be talking about CDR not CDRW discs. Windows Explorer reports these CDRWs full even when there's less than 100 MB on them, and reformatting fixes the problem but only for a few days to a few weeks after which problem recurs.

If you're really talking about using CDRWs like floppies, you're talking packet writing, which is inherently less reliable than multisession writing. So I presume you're using Nero's InCD?

If my assumption is correct, consider:

1) Although it is claimed that rewritables can be written to /erased a thousand times, experience shows a hundred times may be more realistic. And that's for good media.

2) Having more than one packet-writing app on your computer is guaranteed to cause problems.

3) InCD has in the past had conflicts with the burning plugins for MediaPlayer, RealPlayer, lots of other apps, blah, blah. Roxio's DirectCD is known for problems also. It's been reported that even silly things such as turning off autorun, or only using the app to eject- not the writer's button itself, can make a difference in the reliability of packet-writing.

Here's a troubleshooter for InCD on Windows2000, the essential points will apply to XP as well. Yeah, it's a little dated, but some things to look at:

http://www.cdrlabs.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=9997

[piano632]

I use both CD-RW and DVD+/-RW with InCD and have never had any serious problems with either. I don't know if DVD is more reliable, but it does have the advantage of being able to use the whole 4.7GB of space whereas a CD used for packet writing needs a lot of overhead space and thus limits your usable file space to 572MB on a 700MB disc.

[fritzi93]

I use both CD-RW and DVD+/-RW with InCD and have never had any serious problems with either. I don't know if DVD is more reliable, but it does have the advantage of being able to use the whole 4.7GB of space whereas a CD used for packet writing needs a lot of overhead space and thus limits your usable file space to 572MB on a 700MB disc.

Yeah, didn't mean to overstate the case. YMMV, of course. Nevertheless, packet writing is less reliable than multisession. And hmm, well... *some?/many?* people experience problems/conflicts. By no means all do.

[hech54]

If you're really talking about using CDRWs like floppies, you're talking packet writing, which is inherently less reliable than multisession writing. So I presume you're using Nero's InCD?

That is exactly what I told the OP in the duplicate thread he started alongside this thread....packet writing sucks.

[bevills1]

Do you, piano632, share CDRW between systems? That seems to cause more problems according to the http://it.mnsfld.edu/policies/using_cd-r_media.cfm link info. I'm using InCD, and I know about problems with other packet writing from direct experience having had the burner actually damage a disc when both Roxio's DirectCD and InCD were on the same system. My original post was 2/2/06, and I posted queery in computer forum hoping to find answer there because no useful info to my original posted question was found for many days, and no useful info was learned until 2/11/06. Now I have much useful info, and I thank all who were able to finally provide some useful info. I'm sorry if the other post caused any problems. Does anyone know whether DVDRW writing uses InCD or other packet writing technique? If DVDRW also uses packet writing, I think it'd have similar reliability problems, but it may be better if it uses other writing technique.

[piano632]

You definitely don't want to have DirectCD and InCD on the same system, they will cause conflicts. But I've been able to take a CD-RW from one computer to another using InCD and read/write them with both drives. I don't see why so many people have trouble with it, it's always worked for me (even months/years later). I've been using the same discs for years now (not excessively, of course). The only discs I can say to definitely avoid are Princo brand. They die out after only about 10 rewrites. InCD does have options to verify the formatting and what's written on the disc, but of course it takes twice as long to do it that way.

[bevills1]

Were the discs used for months or years with no problems formatted with the InCD verify option? I see no InCD verify option on what's written when data is written to disc with copy and paste in Windows. The format time is unimportant I think because I can start it and do other things until complete. Problems I experienced are the data on disc is seen, but no more data can be written to disc nor can any copy or paste to and from disc can be done since error message is given "Disc may be full or you don't have access" making reformat the only option to make disc usable until the problem recurs. I'll try the verify format option to see if it makes any difference. By some searches I learned DVDRW technology is similar to CDRW technology making it unlikely that would be more reliable, but the only way to know for sure is to try it to see which I'll try if the verify format option still results in CDRW failures.

[piano632]

After you have written to the disc, if you click on Properties for the drive, does it say there is free space available?

I assume you are using a newer version of InCD software. From My Computer, if you right-click on the drive where the disc is and select "InCD Format", in the box that pops up you should see a checkbox under the label name that says "Verify". If you check that then your formatting will be verified.

To verify all data written to the disc after it is formatted, from My Computer right-click the drive and select Properties, click the InCD tab and near the bottom is a checkbox that says "Write with verify". If you check that box and Apply, then all data written to that drive in the future with InCD will be verified and also take twice as long.

DVD uses the same format for packet writing (UDF 1.50) but reads/writes faster and doesn't eat up ~120MB of disc space for the file system like CD-RW does.

[bevills1]

Nero 6 with latest update used on one system, but another system at a business location has original Nero 6 with no updates since that system isn't connected to internet for security reasons. Do you know whether original Nero 6 has these verify capabilities, or is there a way to download Nero updates to a CD, DVD or external HDD and then install on another system? I'd consider getting a DVDRW drive for the business located system if DVDRW would solve the problem but don't want to spend time, money and effort if DVDRW discs have same reliability issues.

[fritzi93]

If you're really talking about using CDRWs like floppies, you're talking packet writing, which is inherently less reliable than multisession writing. So I presume you're using Nero's InCD?

That is exactly what I told the OP in the duplicate thread he started alongside this thread....packet writing sucks.

LOL :P Right you are.

[piano632]

As long as you have Nero 6 installed with a serial number, you can download all kinds of updates here:

http://ww2.nero.com/nero6/enu/nero-up.php

You need Update-Package 3, though you may want to update the other packages too while you're at it. I believe the InCD software has changed some since the early editions of Nero 6, so updating it may help.

[bevills1]

Today I encountered exact same problem while backing up pictures' folders with DVDRW as I did with CDRW even though using verify format and verify writing in InCD. The first folder backed up with no problems, but copying second folder stopped after 46 MB and gave same error message given with CDRW backup failures. This seems to indicate hech54 and fritzi93 are likely correct that packet writing sucks. Finally I tried creating data DVD using Nero which burned both pictures' folders backups and then anoter 1 GB folder with no problem, and I can probably continue burning using Nero until the disc is full based on these results. I only wish I'd known to do it that way before, and I hope my tests and results may help others.

[bevills1]

A very good review on the unreliability of packet writing I found at http://users.forthnet.gr/ath/axatis/FAQs/CDR/Basics/packet.htm which supports posts by others here. My problems were solved by switching from packet writing to making data CDs and data DVDs instead, and hopefully this additional info from this link will help others having similar problems.

[hech54]

If you are looking to backup data to CD or DVD...I'd strongly suggest forgetting about the RW factor myself.....especially with CD's and give Prassi Ones a try for creating data CD's/DVD's.

DVDRW's to me are extremely useful especially when creating a video DVD....but I have never found CDRW of much value for storing data....whether that data be crucial(like family photos) or not-so crucial like MP3's and stuff like that.
Sure I have a stack of finalized CD-R's...quite a few having the same exact data as the previous one...but at least I have it and it's readable....that is what is most important.
I own two DVD burners in this computer....have stacks of DVD+RW's and DVD-+R's....but all of my vital info(family photos) are on CD-R....my wife's huge MP3 collection is on DVD-R.
To me CD-R's are just more reliable to my little brain...don't know why.
Good luck to ya'....
Hech54

[bevills1]

I totally agree with using CD/DVD for long term storage. I use RW media only for transferring data between PCs and do use CD/DVD for any cirtical or unreplaceable data. To see some reasons why RW isn't reliable for long term storage go to http://www.leppphoto.com/learn/articles/cdrw.htm.

[jman98]

For what it's worth, I have found DVD+RW to be much more reliable than CD-RW, but I only have cheapo Office Depot brand CD-RWs and I do NOT recommend them. Neither format is good for long term storage and not recommended for that, no matter who makes it.

[bevills1]

Check http://www.bitburners.com/Reviews/Hardware/VSO_DVD_recorder_and_media_reliability_report/
for test results that shows DVD+RW is more reliable than DVD-RW and interestingly DVD-R is more reliable than DVD+R. You need to make sure of player compatibility though. I have an older Toshiba player that plays all DVD-R tried but plays no DVD+R tried indicating that player is DVD-R compatible only.

[Nelson37]

To Emphasize - Packet Writing Sucks. Packet Writing Software Sucks. Do not load the software. Do not use the software, unless reliability and compatability are secondary to idiot-proofing.

[hech54]

Even one of the first "pushers" of packet writing....Roxio.....has made it a point to REMOVE packet writing from their previous versions via updates.

[piano632]

I've never had any serious problems with packet writing on either CD-RW or DVD-/+RW in the 5 years I've been using it. I've written the discs on 3 different drives and read them on 5 different drives. (The only exception was when I used Princo media which is lousy to begin with and starts to fail after only a few rewrites). You don't mention what burner you are using, but I suppose the quality of the burner would make a difference. I just like being able to add/replace/delete files on a disc without having to rewrite the whole thing, that's why I use it. I think I must have about 50 discs formatted with InCD. No failures or corrupted data yet, except for the Princo discs. Guess I must be blessed.

[bevills1]

I've seen at least one other post where the user does packet writing daily with no problems for years too. It's quite strange that it works for some but not for many others. Hey, use if it works for you, but IMO it likely won't be reliable for most as indicated in link from my 2-13-06 post here. Also suggest you check link in my 2-14-06 post here about unreliability of RW medai if you haven't already.

[piano632]

I think packet writing is more of a system problem than a format problem. Why don't you just use a flash drive or an external HDD if you need to take data from one computer to another?

[JSB1]

I use RW media only for transferring data between PCs ...

Get a USB flash drive...



JSB

[bevills1]

I have an external hard drive for transferring large amounts of data between PCs, but I just find it more convenient to use CD/DVD for transferring 50 MB or less which is done frequently to transfer Peachtree Accounting files. Using Nero to burn whole files doesn't take very long when files are that small. A friend told me he had unreliability issues with USB drives which is why I've not tried them.