What software/hardware needed for lossless capture?

[payton34]

Hey all,

I have read many posts by edDV and perused the Digitalfaq website on the subject of capturing analog sources i.e. VHS and Hi8 in the highest quality possible to ultimatlely output to MPEG2 DVD.


METHOD 1:
Going from an analog signal thru a converter such as the Canopus 110, which is a hardware DV25 format solution, with a 4:1:1 color sampling, and then go thru another color conversion with a software encoding solution to MPEG2 which has a 4:2:0.

If no editing is required except the usual cuts and authoring the above method would not seem to produce as good results as maybe the following:

METHOD 2:
Take the analog source and covert to MPEG2 on the fly with a high quality hardware solution, thus avoiding the unneccessary color and format conversions.

My only concern with the above "METHOD 2" is the fact that the MPEG2 encoding will have to be performed in real time, athough it could be done with a very high quality MPEG 2 card like the Canopus MVRd2200 corners still might have to be cut.

On the digitalfaq. site he talks about capturing in a lossess format wrapped in an AVI file such as "MJPEG, YUYV or HUFFYUV. Would the following be yet still a better solution?

METHOD 3:
Capture the analog source in one of the lossless or less lossy formats wrapped in an AVI container. Then at this point use a high quality encoding software to take all the time it needs to encode this large lossless AVI file to MPEG2 where you can then do your basic cuts and authoring for output to DVD.

Would "METHOD 3" offer a quality advantage in terms of picture over "METHOD 2"? If so what harware/software is needed to do this?

I would prefer "METHOD 2" as this seems more straight forward.
On the other hand in terms of archiving for the future and flexibility, "METHOD 3" might be better.

These scenarios are all based with the PC platform in mind. Lets assume I have the neccesary harware, i.e. hard drive configured properly to raid 0 etc.

Thanks,

[slacker]

edDV and ls definitely have a boatload of expertise in this area! While I don't agree with ALL of their opinions, I value their experience and pure objectivity (when given) to the nth degree. This input has been priceless to me.

I have read LOTS of opinions regarding how to do this properly. There are definitely tidbits of info that run true through this entire site. However, I find that the final solution has as much to do with the vision of the individual as the actual source.

Because I wanted my vhs and Hi-8 tapes transferred to a highly supported, reliable, editable, and compatible media for archive purposes, I chose Digital Master DVCAM tape as my long term storage format. Tapes are quite expensive (not the MOST expensive) but my video is priceless to me and well worth the outlay. These are stored in safe deposit boxes down at the bank. In my case, I use a high quality VCR and a high quality camcorder. (I did not try the DV capture card route because I needed a superior quality camcorder anyway. I shoot approximately 10 hours of video per week.) JVC also produces vhs to miniDV decks for this purpose, but I did not go this route. Professional video companies provides these services as well.

At the same time, I am using the analog/digital pass thru feature to capture DV to my PC for the purposes of editing, authoring and burning to DVD (MPEG2). This requires a quality editor and a dvd authoring package. It's all coming out quite nicely!

It has been an educational experience. I started out using the MPEG2 hardware capture card route (ATI AIW and Emuzed Bali), tried the dvd recorder route (JVC and Panasonic), and, FOR NOW, have settled on the DV camcorder route. It gives me a superior quality archive copy for the future, a DVD viewing copy for today, and the best video quality so far.

I am very pleased.

[edDV]

Hey all,

I have read many posts by edDV and perused the Digitalfaq website on the subject of capturing analog sources i.e. VHS and Hi8 in the highest quality possible to ultimatlely output to MPEG2 DVD.


METHOD 1:
Going from an analog signal thru a converter such as the Canopus 110, which is a hardware DV25 format solution, with a 4:1:1 color sampling, and then go thru another color conversion with a software encoding solution to MPEG2 which has a 4:2:0.

If no editing is required except the usual cuts and authoring the above method would not seem to produce as good results as maybe the following:

This method is good for medium-high level editing and effects using software like Adobe Premiere and Vegas but we must consider the source is VHS. Low resolution sources must be treated with respect.

METHOD 2:
Take the analog source and covert to MPEG2 on the fly with a high quality hardware solution, thus avoiding the unneccessary color and format conversions.

My only concern with the above "METHOD 2" is the fact that the MPEG2 encoding will have to be performed in real time, athough it could be done with a very high quality MPEG 2 card like the Canopus MVRd2200 corners still might have to be cut.

On the digitalfaq. site he talks about capturing in a lossess format wrapped in an AVI file such as "MJPEG, YUYV or HUFFYUV. Would the following be yet still a better solution?

This method highly compresses during capture so editing/filtering options are limited. MPeg2 can be edited but never matches what you can do in your methods 3 (best) and 1 (next best).

I don't see the issue with 4:1:1 to 4:2:0 especially for VHS. VHS only has 600KHz analog resolution in the chroma components. That means color changes (UV not Y) during capture only have approx 50 changes over a horizontal line while luminance at 3MHz (the 4) changes around 240-352 times. 4:1:1 vs 4:2:0 and conversion back an forth happen in the chroma ooze and make no difference big picture IMO.

METHOD 3:
Capture the analog source in one of the lossless or less lossy formats wrapped in an AVI container. Then at this point use a high quality encoding software to take all the time it needs to encode this large lossless AVI file to MPEG2 where you can then do your basic cuts and authoring for output to DVD.

No. no. Edit before you carefully encode to Mpeg2. Uncompressed editing and filtering produce the best results. Do it before you encode if you can.

Would "METHOD 3" offer a quality advantage in terms of picture over "METHOD 2"? If so what harware/software is needed to do this?

Yes. Any cheap capture card can do uncompressed capture. The HDD system needs to be able to keep up with 8-40MByte/s sustained transfers. The lower end of that would require moderate CPU activity for compression to a lossless format like huffyuv. Totally uncompressed capture at 4:2:2 requires a fast single drive or a RAID zero.

I would prefer "METHOD 2" as this seems more straight forward.
On the other hand in terms of archiving for the future and flexibility, "METHOD 3" might be better.

Use method 2 to get a MPeg2 DVD fast. This is fine for cuts editing and quick DVD authoring.

For heavy editing/filtering use Method 3 or 1.

To archive with the idea of using a superior "future codec" then save the archive as uncompressed, huffyuv or DV formats. Also be sure to author a DVD for current viewing.


PS: Tomorrow I leave for a two week vacation. I'll comment on responses if I can before I leave.

[edDV]

edDV and ls definitely have a boatload of expertise in this area! While I don't agree with ALL of their opinions, I value their experience and pure objectivity (when given) to the nth degree.

FWIW: My experience is mostly with higher end formats. The reason I am here is to help solve the problem of VHS capture/editing/authoring, learn from others and help test possible solutions.

I have an extensive collection of VHS material (mostly news/documentary clips) that I want to archive.

[payton34]

Hi edDV,

Hopefully I can figure this out before you go on vacation. Hope your vacation is a great one!

It sounds as if "METHOD 3" will offer the best quality. I want to give you some info on my work flow. As much as possible I plan on doing my filtering and restoration on the analog side with a Signvideo proc amp and detailer.

Most of the time I would only be doing cuts and chapters with Premiere PRO and Adobe Encore.

I talked with a few manufactures, Black magic and blue fish about there PC cards, but their opionion was that VHS was such poor quality that capturing it un compressed was not going to ultimately make a better picture, therefore not worth the effort. My gut feeling was that VHS being of poor quality was the precise reason why I would want to go through the trouble of capturing un compressed so as to get as much of the analog video signal as possible on my hard drive before any conversions take place down the line.

These cards were big bucks, in the two to three thousand dollar range. According to Adobe's web site the Blue Fish card was the only one offically authorized to work with Premiere Pro.

I feel like I am missing something in the equation.

Are there cheaper alternatives to capturing un compressed in a format that will work with Premeire Pro?

Can you specifically suggest a capture card and software that will do this?

Lastly, I need a manufacture of a product that I can get current support for.

Thanks,

[slacker]

edDV,

Your straightforward instructional narrative in so so many posts has been instrumental in finalizing my own process for archiving my personal video libraries. And my understanding of video has grown proportionately.

Appreciate it immensely!

And NOW, I must go buy some SF Giants tickets.

[edDV]

These cards were big bucks, in the two to three thousand dollar range. According to Adobe's web site the Blue Fish card was the only one offically authorized to work with Premiere Pro.

I feel like I am missing something in the equation.

Are there cheaper alternatives to capturing un compressed in a format that will work with Premeire Pro?

Can you specifically suggest a capture card and software that will do this?

Lastly, I need a manufacture of a product that I can get current support for.

Thanks,

The high end cards are designed for capturing high end component analog like Betacam SP and analog pro cameras.

Any cheap sub $100 capture-tuner card (brooktree consumer chips) will do uncompressed capture, as will the ATI All-in-Wonder cards. These are adequate for VHS. See Lordsmurf's writeups on ATI AIW uncompressed capture. http://digitalfaq.com/dvdguides/capture/atiavi/atiavi.htm

If you are only doing cuts, a realtime hardware MPeg2 capture card will save you time.