Beautiful AVI, MPEG-2 awful burns

[daddy-o]

First post, do I need to add info to my profile to help?

Through ATI TV 9.2 I can capture consistently from satellite TV, 702x480 native. MPG and AVI files play back very well on the PC on a variety of players. When I try to burn them without any editing they come out pixelated (amount varies), choppy and with flashback or deja-vu. Until I can burn unedited footage consistently I don't see much reason to spend time editing.

By flashback and deja-vu I mean that the action moves smoothy, even without pixellation, and then jumps back a few second but then carries through for a while beyond the error point and then jumps back similarly again, that's deja-vu, like two steps forward and one step back. A flashback is a break in the action that shows less than a second from earlier in the clip like deja-vu, only the action jumps back to where it left off rather than just continuing from the jump back.

I try to keep my scratch disks clean to avoid fragmentation. The system reboots fast enough that I will often reboot when I switch from one video task to another (capture to burn in this case.) When I work on video the system is dedicated to the single task. The only thing hardware wise that may help would be another physical disk or two, for swap and temp. Right now I use two, as noted in my profile. TIA

[edDV]

explain your DVD authoring process

[daddy-o]

I've used the Ulead v.6 that came with the video card and Adobe Premier Elements. All of my software is up to date, afaik. The following is from memory so the exact wording is probably off a little.

This is very basic authoring. Open either program, create a new authoring session. In Ulead I use the "settings from a clip" option, that's where I get my "704x480" setting. Save. In either program I then add media and then go straight to Finalize or DVD depending on program. At that point I create a DVD without menus. Recently I've started to preview the DVD or render the timeline. At that point the video may not play properly. I'll burn it any way just to see and it will usually be poor, but in a different way from the preview. The quality is inconsistent, the errors are usually different.

These days I'm working through the codecs I can use in the capture phase. One thing frustrating is when I use Microsoft MPEG-4 V2, for example, it creates a full sized AVI. The size is no problem, I have plenty of disk space, but when I bring it into Premier only the audio comes through to the timeline. That's why I want to use MPEG-2.

NOTES: I'm a sysadmin so I do research on the codecs to avoid wasting time. I'm also very methodical and discount poor results when I'm not meticulous. Huffyuv was very disappointing. I've turned down the accellerations on my video card, that helped a little.

Thanks for the quick reply.

[edDV]

some initial thoughts,

I'm not quite sure what a ATI TV 9.2 is but I'll assume it is the TV Wonder. That model has no hardware acceleration.

You say it captures MPeg2 or AVI at 704x480 OK.
What software encoder for MPeg2?
What encoder settings for MPeg2? bitrate, etc.
What capture settings for AVI?

Your VS6 is very old and probably doesn't cap MPeg2 very well. Later versions are much improved. VS9 is current. I would recommend updating VS6 to VS9.

MPeg4 should be avoided for DVD.

I don't have Premier Elements. I understand it's DV format centered. It does not do MPeg2 on the timeline. You will probably do best capping to uncompressed AVI and setting elements timeline ("Project Format") to uncompressed AVI if it will allow you to.

[daddy-o]

I'm on the box now. It's funny, after transcribing the following I can't find the video encoder. I can only assume it is a modern ATI brand software codec. Several of them are loaded on the system.

If you have any suggestions after looking at these settings I'll return the results.

Dialog box settings "in quotes" - See notes at end.

Capture: ATI TV card with analog tuner, streams flawlessly, coax from a PVR box.

Capture settings: via a wizard
--Format "MPEG2-DVD"
--Standard "NTSC 525"
--Resolution "704x480"
--Deinterlacing Properties "De-Interlace"
(check box not checked- Inverse 3:2 Pulldown
(check box not checked- Record Cropped Video
Audio Stream Properties "48.000KHz, 16 Bit, Stereo
(Next >)
Current Frame Sequence Settings
Number of P Frames in Group "59"
Number of B Frames in Group "0"
(check box) not checked- Closed Group Of Pictures (GOP)
[push button: I Frames Only] [push button: Default] both un-pushed
(Next >)
Video Encoding Parameters
(two choice radio buttons, noted selection)
{ }Constant Bit Rate
{x}Variable Bit Rate
(slider bars)
Max Bit Rate 1 to 15 MBit/second range- set at "4.00"
Target Bit Rate 1-15 again,- set at "1.00"
Motion Estimation Quality 0-100,- set at "70"
Audio Encoding Parameters
Bit Rate slider range 64KB to 384 KB,- set at "128 KB/Sec"
(Next >)
Select Video Soap Type "Light"
(Next >)
Video Soap Properties
...many properties, I just use the default
(Next >)
Max File Size "Windows Limit"
(Finish)

NOTES:
Frankly, I don't feel like transcribing the AVI settings because the only time I get an AVI file output from capture is when I use an MPEG-4 setting for the capture. In Adobe recently I exported the MPEG-2 capture to AVI and burned it to disk. It came out looking better than the original's final product. The original MPEG2 was 17.5MB, the rendered AVI was 224.5MB. The clip is of the first minute of the car chase in the 1969 movie Bullitt, it has both motion and static images on the screen as the scene plays. The sound is right on too, 1969 Mustang and Plymouth Road Runner!

[Stormin Norman]

What ya mean by capturing Mpeg2 to avi? If you have mpeg2 and audio...just burn it after editing/authoring. Avi has nothing to do with what your doing if capping at DVD specs. DVD is far superior than avi specs, depending your source is good.

[edDV]

...

Capture: ATI TV card with analog tuner, streams flawlessly, coax from a PVR box.

Capture settings: via a wizard
--Format "MPEG2-DVD"
--Standard "NTSC 525"
--Resolution "704x480"
--Deinterlacing Properties "De-Interlace"

Is there a setting for interlaced?
Interlaced is what you want for DVD to TV playback.

Video Encoding Parameters
(two choice radio buttons, noted selection)
{ }Constant Bit Rate
{x}Variable Bit Rate
(slider bars)
Max Bit Rate 1 to 15 MBit/second range- set at "4.00"
Target Bit Rate 1-15 again,- set at "1.00"
Motion Estimation Quality 0-100,- set at "70"

For max quality (60min/DVD) use 8Mb/s CBR
For medium quality (~90min/DVD) use 6-7Mb/s target, 8Mb/s Max VBR
For low quality (120min/DVD) use 4Mb/s target, 7Mb/s Max VBR

For awful quality, keep your current settings.

The encoder may or may not struggle with the above settings in real time. Use Ctl-Alt-Del Task Manager performanc tab to monitor CPU activity.

[edDV]

As for AVI we first need to know what Adobe Premiere Elements will accept as a Project format.

Most universal would be:
UYVY, 704x480, 48KHz 16bit PCM audio

To save disk space you could try huffyuv

[daddy-o]

Latest findings.

I haven't implemented your suggestions yet. I'll definitely switch the de-interlace setting next go-around and report. It will probably be a day or two.

What I did today was to load, update and use the Nero software.

Recently published software seems to help. You are right about Adobe Premier's DV preference. It does not recognize the tuner as a capture device. BTW, the actual card is an ATI AIW 7500. The ATI MMC (multimedia center) is ATI's Capture, Play and Library suite.

I was able to create a very watchable DVD of a 14 minute clip (Bullitt, see above.) There were two short flashes of pixellation that may have been due to a screensaver. I've switched the SS to (none) and turned them off in the power settings.

Upon success I attempted to create another disk of a 1.5 hour movie. The capture and create settings were the same as the 14 minute clip.

Upon reboot I went directly to burn the DVD, a dedicated session.

The movie was unwatchable due to pixellation and espceially from starts and stops. The Panasonic DVD player clock will read, for instance, 1:21, 1:22, 1:23, 1:22, 1:23, 1:22. There is some serious confusion going on here!

FYI, in the Nero product if I don't create even the most basic menu the DVD is un-readable in the Panasonic DVD. That is confirmed at least twice.

[Sulik]

You have another problem with P and B frames settings.

59 P-frames and 0 B-frames will create a too long GOP for DVD authoring.
Keeps the settings to the default of 4P and 2B, which will create a standard IBBP GOP structure (or 14P 0B if you don't want B-frames).

[lordsmurf]

You need to do this:
http://www.digitalfaq.com/dvdguides/capture/atimpeg/atimpeg.htm
http://www.digitalfaq.com/dvdguides/capture/atiavi/atiavi.htm

Why are you using AVI?
What does DV have to do with anything?
What is the source?
What is the desired level of editing? Remove bits/piece/commercials?
What is the desired output? DVD?

What are you authoring with?
That free software that came with the ATI card is useless (well, everything EXCEPT ATI's own ATI MMC software). Ulead, et al.

Your issue is very simple. Bad capture technique, bad authoring technique. You should look into using TDA for your authoring, being a newbie. If you use Win2000 or XP, it can also burn your discs for you.

[daddy-o]

Answers for everyone:

Stormin Normin: On a lark I converted an MPEG-2 to an AVI, and noted the results, that's all. What software do you use?

Sulik: Thanks for the P&B frames suggestion, I'll report the results.

Lord Smurf:
LINKS: Thanks for the links. I have read and printed several of the guides, I'll check those out too. Did you write them? Very helpful.
WHY AVI: Well, 90% of my captures were MPEG-2 and I'm happy with the results. I agree, AVI was not useful.
WHAT DOES DV HAVE TO DO WITH...: That was only a reference to how Adobe Premier Elements captures.
WHAT IS THE SOURCE: That's pretty well outlined above, ATI AIW 7500, analog COAX, TV wonder software, settings above.
DESIRED LEVEL OF RECORDING: Right now I want to get a 1:30:00 PVR educational show burned to disk for later consumption. No commercials, eventually slice off the PVR menu navigation at the start and finish that is simply part of the source stream. Eventually after that, menus for the critical points.
DESIRED OUTPUT: DVD, I have good media!
WHAT AUTHORING TOOLS: As noted above, (1)Ulead-6 OEM (actually got some good results but editing attempts were difficult enough to make me not want to buy the full version), (2)Adobe Prem Elem, edits well, menus worked but DVD output poor, (3) Nero, most recent updates, notes above, interesting all-in-one tool, many facets (too many for reliability?)In Nero I got a great burn for 14minutes, the 1:30:00 was disappointing though.

I'll look into TDA, thx. The XP tools left me cold, but I'll certainly try again. Are the MS codecs valuable?

[daddy-o]

Answer for EdV:
Those settings are right on for what I put in Prem Elem.
I'll try Huffyuv again too.