HELP- I HATE THIS-

[SAFEDISKKILLER21]

NOT A RIPPING QUESTION

ok here is my problem. I ripped my dvd and used Sefy's dvd2avi newbie method. but when i use tmpegenc (new version) and encode a vcd file/files it works. good. However if i create a mpeg2 file (dvd/svcd) the playback is very very jerky. iM USING WINXP pro corp edition. In fact the only dvd playback prog (original movie) that works non-jerky is powerdvd, interactual and windows media player, lay the ripped vobs and all mpeg2 files very jerky. Nothing plays mpeg2 files that i make without jerkiness (i cant open files with powerdvd) I want svcd or dvd quality and it ends up being bad. sorry 4 bad spelling. please help. thanx.

[sommersby]

probubly already checked this, but is your cdrom or dvd, whatever your playing them back on set to DMA mode?

[SAFEDISKKILLER21]

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On 2001-12-03 20:18:33, sommersby wrote:
probubly already checked this, but is your cdrom or dvd, whatever your playing them back on set to DMA mode?
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the mpeg2 files are on my hdd, and obviously i play dvd's on my dvd drive.
and how do i check dma again. i forgot.

[Sefy]

I don't think DMA has anything to do with this, it may increase speed of drive, but not how it plays it, it could be a field order encoding problem, it's very problematic with SVCD, i'd suggest you encode a small portion of the movie in one field order and see how it plays, and then encode in the other field order and see if you can find any diffrence.

The best way is to check this on a TV since it's more sensative

[VidGuy]

If Forced Film was used (it normally should be for most DVDs), then this will occur if you did not tell CCE or TMPGEnc that it was non-interlaced....

For CCE = just check the Progressive box (and run pulldown.exe later to put in the 3:2 pulldown bits), and for TMPGEnc you can just use the 3:2 pulldown on playback menu in the "Encode mode:" field on the Video tab (not the 3:2 mode checkbox on the Advanced tab)

[Sefy]

VidGuy, don't know what to tell you, but, I never, not even ONCE have used Force Film, and all my VCD's come out wonderful!
can you explain it to me ?

[bewley]

I will agree that it sounds very much like a field order issue.

SAFEDISKKILLER21:
In TMPGEnc click the Setting button, change to the Advanced tabe, and then swap the field order dropdown box (if it's set to Bottom Field First, try going with Top Field First).

Sefy:
I am curious... Do you often convert NTSC Film DVD's? I never understood if I *HAD* to choose the Force Film option in DVD2AVI to properly make 23.976 fps MPEG's and I am interested in knowing if it is required. (Of course, once this is done, one can pretty much avoid the field order issue that SAFEDISKKILLER21 may be having.)

Thanks,

- bewley

[Sefy]

bewley, alot of my DVD's are NTSC Film, like VidGuy said, most DVD's are in Film format, it's the DVD Player who makes them into NTSC.

And yet, I have not used NTSC Film even once, and I don't have any sync problems, and I never had encoding problems, but you gotta remember, I encode to VideoCD, I believe most problems that everyone is having are with SuperVCD, which is another one of the reasons I don't like putting the time and effort into it

[Shabubu]

You only need to use Forced Film in DVD2AVI if the film amount is less than 95% (according to Doom9). This is shown in the preview of DVD2AVI. Not too sure exactly where cause I've never had a disc like that. Just press F5 when you load your vobs.

[bewley]

Sefy,
I was unsure if you used NTSC or if you used PAL... This is why I asked. I always keep Forced Film turned on -- except on those rare ocassions when I do DVD's that are Interlaced (adult/wrestling/homemade/etc) or mixed (some Disney movies).

I want to make sure I have this straight:

When you DO NOT choose the Force Film option, does it create the resulting project file using 29.97 fps? Is this more (or less) desirable than having a 23.976 fps project file? I always believed that the lower the frame rate, the more bits that are allocated to each frame -- therefore better quality per frame..?

Anyway, I don't think converting a Film stream to 29.97 fps would cause sync problems -- as the audio is not fps dependent. Right?

Shabubu,
I think that you have it backwards. Force Film should be on unless the NTSC amount is > 5% (Film 95% and below). Then you will need to deal with it as an interlaced source or you will have scenes that have the "combing" effect.

Thanks guys!

- bewley

[Sefy]

bewley, I only have one or two movies which are PAL, and for that I don't need to worry about Film, as that goes only for the NTSC.

And as for your question, yes, it creats the resulting project file using 29.97fps, and personaly, I believe that having more frames, means better quality, and the less frames you have, the quality starts to get... skippy... in Cartoons you may not notice this very much, but I think in action movies you would.

Of course, this is my personal view on the subject, and i'm sure there are others which a much wider experience which can tell me i'm doing it the wrong way, but as i've got about 75 movies in VCD/SxVCD format, and all my friends and family say they look great, I don't need more then that.

[SAFEDISKKILLER21]

I am converting an NTSCFILM DVD and i did use the force film option in DVD2AVI, although i do not think this is a problem. I have WinDVD, PowerDVD, Windows Media Player (WinXp), and Interactual Player so I think that eliminates the software player problem.Forget DMA, this all happens on my HDD, and none of my drives. What happens is that if i make an SVCD or DVD (not VCD) in Tmpegenc (partial or full), and try to open it, Windows Media Player shows the following messages: Opening movie, Locating Codec Server, Error Downloading Codec. then it plays the movie using its own codec (DirectShow)and it plays very jerky.I also tryed cliking on the open with thing and selected WinDVD. Sure it has no error message but the movie is still very jerky. To simplify my question: What setting, Codec, or VFApi plugin do i need to change in TmpegEnc, or DVD2AVI to stop this jerkiness and hacking. Ignore the first post question about the ripped DVD files. They play fine now that I have installed WinDVD. help. Thanx
btw- i just selected the SVCD template-did not change any settings

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: SAFEDISKKILLER21 on 2001-12-04 23:27:43 ]</font>

[Sefy]

The downloading codec message can only occour with SVCD since MPEG2 isn't included in Windows, i've not even once seen it happen with VCD.

As for crappy playback quality, i'll agree with SVCD, it's a big problem to encode it correctly, which is why I don't use it
however, once you do it right (according to those who make it) it has a much higher quality.

[bewley]

Sefy,
Thank you for your response! I agree with you -- the only thing that matters is the personal tastes of the creator and viewers. I will have to play with converting Film to 29.97 fps and see if it improves the smoothness of the video. Since VCD doesn't support pulldown -- although 23.976 is a standard setting -- I very much see your point in doing so.

SAFEDISKKILLER21,
When you encoded using TMPEGENC, did you set the source as Interlaced or as Non-Interlaced (progressive)? If you are Forcing Film, you need to make sure that you have selected Non-Interlaced (progressive) as the Video Source Type (click the Setting button and change on the Advanced Tab). Again, this would go back to it being a field order issue.

Good Luck,

- bewley

[Sefy]

bewley, my pleasure, I can't really say anything regarding the technicality, but all I said is from my experience, i've seen the result of 23.976 and 29.976 on the same movie which DVD2AVI reported was a Film, and I prefered the NTSC version of it, and the file size was the same by the way.

[bewley]

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On 2001-12-05 12:24:16, Sefy wrote:
bewley, my pleasure, I can't really say anything regarding the technicality, but all I said is from my experience, i've seen the result of 23.976 and 29.976 on the same movie which DVD2AVI reported was a Film, and I prefered the NTSC version of it, and the file size was the same by the way.

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Yes, the files are the same size as a second of video is a second of video -- no matter how many frames it takes to get there!

Anyway, I look forward trying some tests and seeing which one I prefer. Thanks again!

- bewley

[Sefy]

My pleasure and also thank you
and Good Luck with your tests! let us all know what you think!

[SAFEDISKKILLER21]

ok im gonna try and keep this as simple as possible: the video playback is jerky in SVCD and DVD files. Not in SVCD. IS there any codec that can help me fic this. I've tried the top line and bottom line progressive and interlace but there is always the error downloading codec message. Help, I need a good Codec.

[Sefy]

Ok, what i'm gonna tell you may sound drastic, but believe me, it works on 99% of all cases, first, UNINSTALL ANY program you have which comes with an MPEG2 codec, it may be a capture program, or a ripping program, or a playback program, just make sure you remove ALL of them! once you are 100% sure you did it, install only ONE playback program (WinDVD/PowerDVD prefered).

That should fix that message you are having with MPEG2 files, and it may even fix your playback problem itself.

[SAFEDISKKILLER21]

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On 2001-12-05 23:52:19, Sefy wrote:
Ok, what i'm gonna tell you may sound drastic, but believe me, it works on 99% of all cases, first, UNINSTALL ANY program you have which comes with an MPEG2 codec, it may be a capture program, or a ripping program, or a playback program, just make sure you remove ALL of them! once you are 100% sure you did it, install only ONE playback program (WinDVD/PowerDVD prefered).
That should fix that message you are having with MPEG2 files, and it may even fix your playback problem itself.

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but i can't remove windows media player. I would however hate to have to play my dvds there instead of WinDVD. Can i do that and install Windvd and have wINDOWS mEDIA pLAYER?
thanx

[kinneera]

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And as for your question, yes, it creats the resulting project file using 29.97fps, and personaly, I believe that having more frames, means better quality, and the less frames you have, the quality starts to get... skippy... in Cartoons you may not notice this very much, but I think in action movies you would.
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I'm somewhat surprised that you still believe this! As has been discussed in a number of other threads on this forum, movies are filmed at 24 fps, 23.976 in NTSC. Thus, force film (or better but slower inverse telecine) is actually restoring the movie to its original form.

Even more importantly, more frames do not mean better quality - in fact its precisely the opposite. First, if the frames didn't exist in the first place - which is the result of telecining - then they aren't improving the quality of the movie. Second, if you have to encode more frames per the same length of movie time, that means you have fewer bits per frame. Encoding at the original film framerate will yield better image quality.

In the case of SVCD, you can apply the 3:2 pulldown on playback flag, and it will do the exact same thing with the 23.976 video as it does when it plays a DVD: telecine it on the fly. The only reason it does this is to be compatible with your NTSC television. Not having to do this is why progressive scan DVD players and progessive display TVs are considered such high quality. In the case of VCD, you can just encode it at 23.976 fps (after force film in DVD2AVI or with IVTC in TMPGEnc) and hope it plays. Some DVD players are happy with it, others aren't, and in the case of mind, it plays the video fine but can't maintain audio sync. (Which is why I switched over to SVCD, which really isn't terribly hard to make).

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: kinneera on 2001-12-08 00:10:21 ]</font>

[Sefy]

SAFEDISKKILLER21, You don't have to remove Media Player completly, you can always put it back on, actually do put it back on before you install anything else, it contains alot of required codecs for the system.

kinneera, you are forgeting that even movies that ARE originaly created with 23.976 are STILL being played back at 29.976, that means there is a reason to it, you don't have 3:2 Pulldown for nothing, you have it, so it can play at 29.97 frames and not as 23.97 frames.

And I have said that from MY experience, i've tried the same movie which was reported as FILM all the way in DVD2AVI, so I tried this theory of everyone, and I found the playback very skippy, sure you can always blame me for bad encoding, but the fact remains, that doing the same movie in NTSC and NTSC Template, it wasn't skippy, so lets leave all theories behind and cna you explain why using Force Film and Film Template it was skippy and the movie originaly was FILM, and why doing it at NTSC and NTSC Template it worked smoothly ?

Oh and SVCD maybe not so terrible to make, but it's useless for me, cause I don't plan on having a library of hundreds of CD's for just a couple of good movies, and no, I don't plan on starting to encode using 2 pass or 3 pass or 5 pass, I like VCD, and I plan on sticking with it, so you can skip that debate for another topic

[kinneera]

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kinneera, you are forgeting that even movies that ARE originaly created with 23.976 are STILL being played back at 29.976, that means there is a reason to it, you don't have 3:2 Pulldown for nothing, you have it, so it can play at 29.97 frames and not as 23.97 frames.
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The whole point is that 3:2 pulldown is artificially generating extra frames. You can't hurt the quality by removing frames that didn't exist to begin with. I don't know how to state it any simpler. In reality, the 3:2 pulldown is actually making the movie stutter more than in its natural form.

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And I have said that from MY experience, i've tried the same movie which was reported as FILM all the way in DVD2AVI, so I tried this theory of everyone, and I found the playback very skippy, sure you can always blame me for bad encoding, but the fact remains, that doing the same movie in NTSC and NTSC Template, it wasn't skippy, so lets leave all theories behind and cna you explain why using Force Film and Film Template it was skippy and the movie originaly was FILM, and why doing it at NTSC and NTSC Template it worked smoothly ?
</BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></TD></TR><TR><TD><HR size=1 color=black></TD></TR></TABLE>

I'm inclined to agree with your assessment that the encoding was done incorrectly. If you use forcefilm, you have to use the NTSC film template in TMPGEnc, not the regular NTSC template!!! Otherwise, TMPGEnc just takes the 23.976 and turns it right back into 29.97, except it does so by interpolating copies of frames, rather than doing a proper 3:2 pulldown to create hybrid interlaced frames. This of course would explain your stuttering on playback!

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Oh and SVCD maybe not so terrible to make, but it's useless for me, cause I don't plan on having a library of hundreds of CD's for just a couple of good movies, and no, I don't plan on starting to encode using 2 pass or 3 pass or 5 pass, I like VCD, and I plan on sticking with it, so you can skip that debate for another topic
</BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></TD></TR><TR><TD><HR size=1 color=black></TD></TR></TABLE>

Fair enough...my TV is 20", so I'm happy with the quality I get from SVCD when I fit it on 2 discs (encoding only 23.976 fps with 3:2 pulldown on playback).

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: kinneera on 2001-12-08 22:55:08 ]</font>

[Sefy]

kinneera, I ment NTSC Film Template when I tried the Force Film, just a mistake in typing the message, so there goes your theory about my bad encoding

And come on, I know what I said, you just made your message 3 times longer by quoting me

[kinneera]

OK, maybe the quoting was a little much...

I'm really pretty curious what movies you've had this problem with. I've created quite a few XVCDs and SVCDs using the force film option without any problems.

[Sefy]

hmm... since my last NTSC Film was so long ago, it's sorta hard to remember, I think some were Disney Classics, from the old ones (shoot me, i'm a cartoon person!).

But I can't tell you exactly which one it was right now, cause it was way too long ago.

[SAFEDISKKILLER21]

GOOD NEWS!
I'VE TRIED UPPING THE CQ TO 85 OR SWITCHING TO ANOTHER MODE AND THERE IS NO MORE JERKING. 1 THING THOUGH. THE FILE IS OVER 1.3 GIG'S. THATS JUST HALF THE MOVIE. IS 85 TOO HIGH OR SHOULD I TRY ANOTHER MODE (I.E.-CBR). OR IS SVCD ONLY SUPPOSED TO FIT ABOUT 35 MINS ON 1 CD (TOO LITTLE FOR A 2 HR DVD RIP). AND SEFY I D/LOADED YOUR TEMPLATES. SxVCD SEEMS GOOD BUT THERE IS NO PICTURE ONCE ENCODED.

[Sefy]

SVCD only fits around 35 to 45min of movie, unless of course you tweak and spend alot of time on the Bitrate, you might manage to put more, although I doubt it will be so high quality.

In your SxVCD Template, change the Encoding to Non-Interlaced on both the Video and Advanced, and then save the Template, i've found that MPEG2 works better that way.

[kinneera]

??? The setting under the advanced tab should correspond to the type of video you're encoding...if it is interlaced, leave that setting interlaced (and if you want the ouput to be progressive, set a de-interlace filter).

If it is progressive, then change it to non-interlaced.

Just blindly changing it could cause problems.

[ric1234]

I am myself a bit confused with these interlaced / non-interlaced things... Ok I do understand what "interlaced" means but then, I still have several questions unanswered.
Context is : my decoding is done using Flask Mpeg or DVDx, frame serving via Avisynth, encoding with TMPGenc.
VOB file is analysed with Teco's BitrateViewer and it says Interlaced TopField first. Ok my source is interlaced.
First, let's talk about the frames sent to TMPG :
When using, Flask, good point because it says its output is progressive frames (although I did not use deinterlace filter ??) so I figure I shouldn't use the deinterlace filter in TMPG nor set source as interlaced... Am I right ?
But what about DVDx, how can I know if the decoded frames are interlaced or not ?
And what about Avisynth, does it change anything while serving to TMPG ?

At the end of the day, here is my real question : In which case do I have an interlaced source in TMPG, since apparently field structure can be changed by Flask or DVDx ?
I didn't use DVD2AVI much, maybe it makes thing easier, I don't know.

And also the worst : I don't see much differences in the result when I change the interlace settings in TMPG...

Last, quick question about the output :
For PAL VCD or SVCD, is it mandatory to output interlaced frames ? or can I just keep them progressive (my pioneer DV444 seems to play them both well...)

Ok, maybe what I wrote contains a lot of mistakes (I told you, I'm confused)... Any help to clarify all this would be greatly appreciated !

Thanks in advance and sorry for the long text !