Overwhelmed! Multiple VOBs on multiple DVDs, get to 2 DVDs

[kosarx]

OK, I've been trying for the past two weeks to get this right, but I am having MAJOR problems!! Please help! Let me give an overview of what I am doing:

This is what I start with:

First, I am transferring football games from either my VCR or Tivo and recording them with my stand alone DVD recorder on best quality. I am averaging about 3 DVD's per game, sometimes 4. I end up with multiple .vob files on each DVD.

This is what I want.
I want one half of a game per DVD, so a total of 2 DVD's per game. Obviously, best quality I can, filling up the entire DVD. I figured out menuing in Adobe Encore, using Adobe Illustrator files for images in my menus, so I'd like to use Encore to burn, but I'm open to anything.

In the example I'm using, the first DVD I made with my standalone has everything but the final 2 minutes of the first half on one DVD. The second DVD has the final 2 minutes of the first half and most of the second half. The third DVD has the rest of the second half.

I rip the DVD's on my computer using DVD Decryptor. I rip each DVD so that I get one .vob file per DVD.

Next, I am currently using MPEGTOVCR to remove the commercials and join the .vob files. I've been able to get a complete first half of a game, with no commercials. I think this problem reencodes the mpeg, and it looks fine on my PC. However, I'm not sure. The final filesize of this particular MPEG is over 5 GIG, so Encore or TMPGEnc Author won't burn it. (any freeware that will do this?)

I'm pretty sure I need to reencode the MPEG so that it will fit onto a DVD. Is this correct? What's the best way? I tried numerous tools like TMPGEnc, but I had the audio problems. Then I tried to use DVD2AVI and saved the audio to WAV, that started to work, but I wasn't sure on the encoding settings in TMPGEnc. I've also tried to use Premiere Pro, Virtualdub, etc. I'm getting really frustated!

The guides here are great, and I've tried to read through as many of those and posts here as I could, but I guess I am as newbie as it gets.

Any help would be GREATLY appreciated, and thank you very much!

Thanks again!!

Axl

[reboot]

Take your 5 gig mpeg, and author it, don't burn it.
Take the authored files and run them through DVDShrink.

[kosarx]

Take your 5 gig mpeg, and author it, don't burn it.
Take the authored files and run them through DVDShrink.

Thanks for the reply!

OK, I'm slow with this, so bear with me. By re-author, you mean what exactly? And what tools?

Also, what exactly does DVD Shrink do, other than the obvious of shrinking to fit into the DVD? Does it reencode to an optimal bitrate to fill the entire DVD?

Thanks again!

Axl

[edsmith77]

kosarx,
Authoring is to take your 5Gb MPEG file and turn it into a structure that can be burned onto a DVD (and hopefully will play).
TmpGenC DVD Author is a good and inexpensive tool for authoring. I think there may even be free authoring tools. Other responders will let you and me know. Or you can search in the tools section on the left panel.
After it is authored, pass this suite of files (IFO's, BUP's and VOB's all usually located in a VIDEO_TS folder) to DVDShrink. THis program will then shrink the files (aka movie) so that they (or it) will now fit onto 1 (one) DVD. If not mistaken DVDShrink is a transcoder vice a reencoder. There will be some quality loss but in my experience for this level of compression, you would be hard pressed to see the difference. I have on several occasions shrunk 8GB files to fit on 1 DVD and I could barely see the any quality loss. Certainly, the best buy on the market today for the job it does. !! The output from DVDShrink will be another VIDEO_TS folder. It is this folder that you want to write to disc with your favorite DVD burning tool.

Hope that helps clarify the process and steps.

[kosarx]

kosarx,
Authoring is to take your 5Gb MPEG file and turn it into a structure that can be burned onto a DVD (and hopefully will play).
TmpGenC DVD Author is a good and inexpensive tool for authoring. I think there may even be free authoring tools. Other responders will let you and me know. Or you can search in the tools section on the left panel.
After it is authored, pass this suite of files (IFO's, BUP's and VOB's all usually located in a VIDEO_TS folder) to DVDShrink. THis program will then shrink the files (aka movie) so that they (or it) will now fit onto 1 (one) DVD. The output from DVDShrink will be another VIDEO_TS folder. It is this folder that you want to write to disc with your favorite DVD burning tool.

Hope that helps clarify the process and steps.

Thanks!

How does DVDShrink affect quality?

[edsmith77]

kosarx,
due to my editing in between posts, I had overlooked that question in my original response and went back and put in a few comments regarding quality.

Sorry for the overlap, but just reread my response again.

Ed

[kosarx]

kosarx,
due to my editing in between posts, I had overlooked that question in my original response and went back and put in a few comments regarding quality.

Sorry for the overlap, but just reread my response again.

Ed

Thank you very much, Ed. Yet another process I can try! Do you know if MPEGTOVCR alters quality from when I input .vob files to when I edit the commercials out to when I create the one MPEG file?

Thanks!

Axl

[edsmith77]

kosarx,
Many apologies, I do not use MPEGTOVCR utility. Hopefully, others who are familiar with that utility can help you along.
I only responded to help provide some laymans insight into the two tools most likely to be of benefit to you in your project. DVDShrink is IMHO one fine tool!
TmpGenC DVD Author (TDA) can be used to cut commercials. Now whoa there folks, let me finish. It does a fair job even if it is a bit tedious. Is it accurate down to the frame level? No. But then we are dealing with MPEG files and not AVI files. In my experience with cutting commercials from captured video with TDA, it gets close enough.

Ed.

[kosarx]

Thanks again, Ed.

What tool do you use for editing video files?

Axl

[edsmith77]

kosarc,
I use TDA for editing out commercials from captured tv programs. For more delicate work i use virtualdub.

[reboot]

Womble works good, cuttermaran is also good for editing mpegs.
Virtualdub for editing avi's.
For the other stuff, edsmith has you covered.
Shrink will literally shrink the whole video structure so it optimally fits on one dvdr. It does a very good job of it, and quality is kept as good as possible.

[kosarx]

Great stuff here guys, thanks.

What is TDA?

Thanks!

Axl

[reboot]

TDA=Tmpgenc DVD Author

[kosarx]

TDA=Tmpgenc DVD Author

Gotcha.

Thanks!

Axl

[kosarx]

Cuttmaran looks interesting, since it is free and is supposed to do what MPEGTOVCR does. Anyone have experience with it? It looks like the posts under its download link are promising.

Thanks!

Axl

[reboot]

I like it, but have since switched to tmpgenc mpeg editor, seeing as how I paid for it a long time ago (before I knew about cuttermaran).
I still do 99% of my editing in virtualdub. It's just easier to get the output I want, then frameserve. If my source video is mpeg, I use virtualdub-mod/mpeg.

[kosarx]

Does virtualdub-mod/mpeg re-encode?

Thanks!

Axl

[reboot]

It will ENcode to avi, but I skip that step, and frameserve to my encoder.

[kosarx]

Well guys, I tried your suggestions, and they work perfectly!!!

1. I rip my DVD Recorder DVDs to .vob files, one .vob per DVD with DVD Decryptor.
2. MPEG2VCR to create an MPEG (will try Cuttermaran soon)
3. Import to Encore, author, create Video and Audio TS folders
4. DVD Shrink to get one .ISO image file (Deep analysis and Sharp setting)
5. DVD Decryptor to burn file

So far, I've been able to get 90 minutes on one DVD with no quality loss and no pixelation.

Thanks so much for your generous help!!!

[reboot]

Cuttermaran won't rip or create an mpeg from .vob's. It's for simple editing of m2v and mpa elementary streams.

[kosarx]

Womble works good, cuttermaran is also good for editing mpegs.
Virtualdub for editing avi's.
For the other stuff, edsmith has you covered.
Shrink will literally shrink the whole video structure so it optimally fits on one dvdr. It does a very good job of it, and quality is kept as good as possible.

Oh, Ok. I was going by what you said in the quote.

[Nelson37]

Kosarx, I'm guessing you're a Browns fan?

What type audio files are you using on the final product? AC3 or Mpeg? Some authoring products will convert to LPCM audio, essentially a WAV file, which is very large and forces a smaller video file.

You might try lowering the quality on the original copy to the DVD recorder, compare that to the re-encoded file. Might be just as good or even better, saving some steps. Starting with the VCR definitely sacrifices some quality.

For cutting commercials, I use VDUB-MPG to determine time values, then enter these into TMPGENC encoder, in the Merge and Cut section. I record the game into 4 seperate quarters, this makes it easier to spot commercials when scanning in VDUB.

I put one game per disk, quality equivalent to original satellite broadcast.

[kosarx]

Kosarx, I'm guessing you're a Browns fan?

What type audio files are you using on the final product? AC3 or Mpeg? Some authoring products will convert to LPCM audio, essentially a WAV file, which is very large and forces a smaller video file.

You might try lowering the quality on the original copy to the DVD recorder, compare that to the re-encoded file. Might be just as good or even better, saving some steps. Starting with the VCR definitely sacrifices some quality.

For cutting commercials, I use VDUB-MPG to determine time values, then enter these into TMPGENC encoder, in the Merge and Cut section. I record the game into 4 seperate quarters, this makes it easier to spot commercials when scanning in VDUB.

I put one game per disk, quality equivalent to original satellite broadcast.

Nelson, can you elaborate a little more on your process? It seems like a whole game on one DVD would have huge quality loss. That would be an average of like 180 minutes of video.

I believe the audio file is ac3, at least, that's what DVD Shrink says. It's like 200 MB, I believe.

Thanks!

[Nelson37]

I cap real-time with an ATI card, AVG bitrate around 4.5 - that is specified, not actual. Audio set to 128. Been doing Browns games for 4 years now, this was one of my original goals.

Total size before cutting commercials is a little over 5 gig. After edit, size right on about 4 gig. Haven't checked actual playtime, which would be somewhat variable, but it is much closer to 2 hours than 3.

By starting with VHS, you are loosing a lot of quality right there. Going thru the DVD recorder, and then Shrink or other, you are doing several encodes and conversions. Each one looses a little PQ. That's why I suggest capping at a bitrate which fits the first time. If you get close but slightly over, use Shrink to make it fit.

[TBoneit]

kosarx,
due to my editing in between posts, I had overlooked that question in my original response and went back and put in a few comments regarding quality.

Sorry for the overlap, but just reread my response again.

Ed

Thank you very much, Ed. Yet another process I can try! Do you know if MPEGTOVCR alters quality from when I input .vob files to when I edit the commercials out to when I create the one MPEG file?

Thanks!

Axl

As I understand it both MpegToVcr and Videoredo only re-encode the Gops that are affected by the cuts.

To explain: When you cut out the commercials you have a GOP that needs to be re-built at the start of your cut and another one that needs to be re-built at the end of your cut. Those are the only ones that get touched. Neither application does encoding.

If you need ultimate quality my choice would probably be, Videoredo (MpegToVCR as alternative) to cut (it's what I use) then TMPGenc Xpress to take my clips and easily encode to fit onto 1 DVD's space, TMPGenc DVD Author to Author, Nero 5.5 to burn.

For Speed I'd Videoredo to TMPGenc DVD, to DVDShrink to make it fit the DVD And Burn.

The Reason I use TMPGenc Xpress is mainly for my PAL to NTSC conversions but the same reasons apply here, they are:

Easy not fast, Really nice quality not fast.

Easy = I add my clips tell it to encode to one big clip in your case, or Separate clips for episodic disks. Pick NTSC, It sets the bitrate, I Choose resolution depending on final bitrate. Set output folder, turn off monitor next day done.

I have it running right now doing a 3 by 50+minute episode PAL DVD I ripped to the HDD, opened as a DVD, Best quality settings. Approx 4+ hours per episode and that is on a 3.0 Ghz P4 with HT and 1 Gig DDR Dual Channel memory. I'll save the main menu as a bitmap (PowerDVD) and use it as the background in TMPGenc and use the menu editor to place the buttons and episodes where needed. It'll look really good, play in my Sony Changer so I can watch and episode from it and episode form others without having to keep changing disks. If not for that I could just play in my Apexes. This way I get my backup and it is now NTSC.

It's not fast but quality is good and Xpress handles AC3 audio in and out with it's AC3 plug-in.

So easy & fast or slow & Quality.

Cheers

[kosarx]

I cap real-time with an ATI card, AVG bitrate around 4.5 - that is specified, not actual. Audio set to 128. Been doing Browns games for 4 years now, this was one of my original goals.

Total size before cutting commercials is a little over 5 gig. After edit, size right on about 4 gig. Haven't checked actual playtime, which would be somewhat variable, but it is much closer to 2 hours than 3.

By starting with VHS, you are loosing a lot of quality right there. Going thru the DVD recorder, and then Shrink or other, you are doing several encodes and conversions. Each one looses a little PQ. That's why I suggest capping at a bitrate which fits the first time. If you get close but slightly over, use Shrink to make it fit.

But my games are on VHS, how can you avoid it?

Burning the games on my DVD recorder from VCR doesn't show any quality loss. And MPEG2VCR doesn't reencode.

I'd love to see which Browns games you have. Send me a message and we can talk!

[kosarx]

I cap real-time with an ATI card, AVG bitrate around 4.5 - that is specified, not actual. Audio set to 128. Been doing Browns games for 4 years now, this was one of my original goals.

Total size before cutting commercials is a little over 5 gig. After edit, size right on about 4 gig. Haven't checked actual playtime, which would be somewhat variable, but it is much closer to 2 hours than 3.

By starting with VHS, you are loosing a lot of quality right there. Going thru the DVD recorder, and then Shrink or other, you are doing several encodes and conversions. Each one looses a little PQ. That's why I suggest capping at a bitrate which fits the first time. If you get close but slightly over, use Shrink to make it fit.

But my games are on VHS, how can you avoid it?

Burning the games on my DVD recorder from VCR doesn't show any quality loss. And MPEG2VCR doesn't reencode.

I'd love to see which Browns games you have. Send me a message and we can talk!

[Nelson37]

Start with the DVD recorder, swap disks at the half. Move files to PC, edit commercials, author. Finding the right bitrate setting will need some trial and error. If slightly oversize after edit, use Shrink. Also, set audio bitrate to 128. This should give you better quality than starting with VHS.

Existing VHS games a challenge, the resolution is already gone and VHS often has capturing problems. You were on the right track with the WAV file and TMPGENC re-encode, probably the best method. But next year don't use VHS.

I live in Florida and just got Sunday Ticket this year, good timing, eh? Capped 14 games, just a few nationally televised games last three years. Football games a tough challenge for real-time MPG cap, doing the Browns games was a major reason I got started in this hobby.
Hopefully soon they'll be playing some games worth watching more than once!