Trying to Author an "All-Formats" CD!

[berry_lthird]

Hello, all! I am new here.

I am trying to author an "all formats" CD. The idea is:

--Place the CD into an audio CD player, and it plays audio
--Place the CD into a standalone DVD player, and it plays SVCD
--Place the CD into a computer, and it plays data

I have had some marginal success at this. So far, I am able to get a disc that plays audio in audio CD players, but, unfortunately, play as audio CD in standalone DVD players as well (i.e., no video). However, the data track works fine in a computer, and is able to play back the SVCD video using Macromedia Director/Flash executable.

Data works fine in a mode 2 XA session, but the problem is--while audio CD players won't see the XA session--if I put video there, standard DVD players won't see it, either!

Isn't there a way to put time code data (PQ data?) into an "audio" track that only audio CD players can read? The theory is to "mask" the SVCD video track by making an audio CD player skip the first track.

Again, the problem might be that a standalone DVD player might read the disc as an audio CD as well, ignoring the SVCD video track.

Has anyone here ever seen (or made) a disc that works like this?

[jimmalenko]

I am interested in doing something like this as well. AFAIK it is all to do with burning two sessions - I can't remember exactly which way around it is, but Audio CD players can only read either the first session or the last session on CDs, so you need to burn it to fit this.

If it is first session:
burn your audio tracks as one session (but leave the disc open), then burn the SVCD folders as well as your data folder as another session (and close the disc).

If it is last session:
burn the SVCD folders as well as your data folder as one session (but leave the disc open), then burn your audio tracks as another session (and close the disc).

Hopefully someone can shed further light on this, although for the price of two CDRs, it is probably just as easy for you to try it yourself. Of course, some DVD players may not be happy with other stuff on the disc.

[p_l]

Best I've managed so far is to use Nero's Mixed Mode CD setting. The audio plays in audio CD players, and the videos (MPEG-1 files) can be played on computers and on stand-alone DVD players that can play raw (unauthored) MPEG files, for example my Norcent DP 300. The videos don't play on most other DVD players, though.

[berry_lthird]

I am interested in doing something like this as well. AFAIK it is all to do with burning two sessions - I can't remember exactly which way around it is, but Audio CD players can only read either the first session or the last session on CDs, so you need to burn it to fit this.

If it is first session:
burn your audio tracks as one session (but leave the disc open), then burn the SVCD folders as well as your data folder as another session (and close the disc).

If it is last session:
burn the SVCD folders as well as your data folder as one session (but leave the disc open), then burn your audio tracks as another session (and close the disc).

Hopefully someone can shed further light on this, although for the price of two CDRs, it is probably just as easy for you to try it yourself. Of course, some DVD players may not be happy with other stuff on the disc.

That is similar to what I was thinking, but I have had no luck leaving open sessions after burning an audio session. What program are you using? And what is the procedure?

Best I've managed so far is to use Nero's Mixed Mode CD setting. The audio plays in audio CD players, and the videos (MPEG-1 files) can be play on computers and on stand-alone DVD players that can play raw (unauthored) MPEG files, for example my Norcent DP-300. The
videos don't play on most other DVD players, though.

Great! I'll try that next!

Thank you very much to BOTH of you!

8)

[jimmalenko]

That is similar to what I was thinking, but I have had no luck leaving open sessions after burning an audio session. What program are you using? And what is the procedure?

I use Nero. TO leave an audio CD open, I think you have to burn Track-At_once and not Disc-At-Once.

I must say that p_l's method sounds a lot more user-friendly though - IIRC, it sets up two frames - one for data and one for audio. You compile your material as I have outlined above (SVCD and data to the data frame, audio to the audio) and it looks after the sessions and all that for you. Probably the automated way of doing what I was doing manually I think


The key is to burn the folders that make up the VCD/SVCD, not just the MPEG file if you want it to play on settop DVD players.

[bloo]

are you trying to do something like this:

http://www.cs2cd.com/

posted this earlier this year, watch your infringement

peace

bloo

[berry_lthird]

are you trying to do something like this:

http://www.cs2cd.com/

posted this earlier this year, watch your infringement

peace

bloo

Sorry! Not trying to step on any toes, here!



But why shouldn't anyone know how to create such a disc themselves--especially if there are several commercial tools available that will allow them to?

Besides, you can't patent an idea--just a procedure (way of doing something) or an individual work (i.e., some kind of unique hardware or software).

Anyway, after visiting that website, the technique is just as I figured: The first "audio" track is used to hold the video and the data. There must be some "dummy" PQ data (audio "subcode" data?) in the first track to fool audio CD players.

I think maybe CDRWin by GoldenHawk might have the ability to edit PQ/audio subcode data.

Will continue to investigate and post my results as I find them.

[jimmalenko]

Sorry! Not trying to step on any toes, here!



But why shouldn't anyone know how to create such a disc themselves--especially if there are several commercial tools available that will allow them to?

I wouldn't worry too much, and I don't even know what the hell bloo is referring to with "infringement".

After all, you're burning a video of your grandma's birthday party (SVCD), her speech to the masses (audio) and her life statistics (Word file), aren't you ?

[p_l]

I'm not satisfied with my process. The video doesn't play on most stand-alones.

A few thoughts:

Perhaps Nero's CD-Extra is the way to go.

Baldrick has a guide.

The key does seem to be doing it as two sessions.

[jimmalenko]

I'll give the CD-Extra a go in a couple of hours. I successfully burnt one of these about 5 years ago and haven't since, so I'm a little scratchy trying to remember how I did it.

[berry_lthird]

Just CD Extra alone is pretty easy! In Nero (6+) there is a CD Extra compilation setting. The left pane has two areas: One for data, and one for music. You can do disc-at-once burns as well as CD text (if your burner supports it).

The best product for this is Roxio, IMHO. Very easy, right out of the box (since version 5 I think), with no setup whatsoever. Just drag and drop! Roxio also supports CD text without having to tell it to.

So far, no success with the SVCD route. Anybody know of a program that will do SVCD to a project folder instead of a disc image? Otherwise, I'm going to have to copy the SVCD files from a disc or disc image.

[vitualis]

How quickly we forget...

A standard VCD and SVCD can do this. No special burning modes required.

A VCD and SVCD can have additional audio tracks after all the video tracks. A VCD and SVCD also has a standard ISO filesystem.

Put a VCD in a DVD player, and it will play video. Put it in a CD-ROM drive, you will read it as a CD-ROM. The only problematic area is the audio. Depending on the intellegence of your CD player, it may skip all the non-audio tracks and play the first audio tracks, or it may play the non-audio tracks as silence, or it may play the non-audio tracks as digital noise and kill your speakers.

Baldrick has a guide on how to create a S/VCD with audio tracks. The ISO filesystem is innately in every S/VCD and all good authoring programs allow you to put additional files in the filesystem.

BTW, multisession discs or CD Extra will never work for the S/VCD video component as S/VCD works by having specific data on specific predetermined sectors on the disc. The "files" on the S/VCD are simply markers in the filesystem that allow for direct access to this data.

For this reason, a simple "file copy" of a S/VCD will not produce a functioning S/VCD. An authoring program that can actually produce the physical layout of the disc is absolutely necessary.

Unfortunately, the VCDImager website has long dropped off the net. The manual om VCDImager describes quite a lot of this in detail.

But three important points:

1. Multisession / CD Extra S/VCDs will not work and frankly, cannot even be made
2. You cannot create a functioning S/VCD by doing a file copy onto a CD-ROM. S/VCDs are not CD-ROMs.
3. You can put CD-DA, S/VCD video, and user file data in a CD filesystem on a S/VCD without any "hacks" to the S/VCD standard.

Regards.

[berry_lthird]

How quickly we forget...

A standard VCD and SVCD can do this. No special burning modes required.

A VCD and SVCD can have additional audio tracks after all the video tracks. A VCD and SVCD also has a standard ISO filesystem.

Put a VCD in a DVD player, and it will play video. Put it in a CD-ROM drive, you will read it as a CD-ROM. The only problematic area is the audio. Depending on the intellegence of your CD player, it may skip all the non-audio tracks and play the first audio tracks, or it may play the non-audio tracks as silence, or it may play the non-audio tracks as digital noise and kill your speakers.

Baldrick has a guide on how to create a S/VCD with audio tracks. The ISO filesystem is innately in every S/VCD and all good authoring programs allow you to put additional files in the filesystem.

BTW, multisession discs or CD Extra will never work for the S/VCD video component as S/VCD works by having specific data on specific predetermined sectors on the disc. The "files" on the S/VCD are simply markers in the filesystem that allow for direct access to this data.

For this reason, a simple "file copy" of a S/VCD will not produce a functioning S/VCD. An authoring program that can actually produce the physical layout of the disc is absolutely necessary.

Unfortunately, the VCDImager website has long dropped off the net. The manual om VCDImager describes quite a lot of this in detail.

But three important points:

1. Multisession / CD Extra S/VCDs will not work and frankly, cannot even be made
2. You cannot create a functioning S/VCD by doing a file copy onto a CD-ROM. S/VCDs are not CD-ROMs.
3. You can put CD-DA, S/VCD video, and user file data in a CD filesystem on a S/VCD without any "hacks" to the S/VCD standard.

Regards.

DOH!!!

*slaps forehead*

https://www.videohelp.com/forum/userguides/113432.php

:P

[DereX888]

LOL
if you want sample Seinfeld VCD containing last Seinfeld's episodes, CDDA song and a CD-ROM data with shockwave/flash files (all Seinfeld-related) that i made in 98 or 99 (forgot when this show ended) then LMK, i'll send you a copy VCD is fully chaptered and has nice menus, took me more than a week to create it all on a 233MHz machine LOL
As vitualis wrote earlier - VCD and its subset SVCD standard allows for extra CDDA content and data content. All you need to do is author it with right software and burn in TAO (where one track(s) is/are audio tracks, and separate track contain VCD and ROM data).
Philips VCD Toolkit was my tool of choice back then, but I remember using early Adaptec's VCD Creator as well. Early Nero didn't create standard-compliant VCDs for some reason AFAIR, they didn't play on standalone vcd players at all.

[berry_lthird]

LOL
if you want sample Seinfeld VCD containing last Seinfeld's episodes, CDDA song and a CD-ROM data with shockwave/flash files (all Seinfeld-related) that i made in 98 or 99 (forgot when this show ended) then LMK, i'll send you a copy VCD is fully chaptered and has nice menus, took me more than a week to create it all on a 233MHz machine LOL
As vitualis wrote earlier - VCD and its subset SVCD standard allows for extra CDDA content and data content. All you need to do is author it with right software and burn in TAO (where one track(s) is/are audio tracks, and separate track contain VCD and ROM data).
Philips VCD Toolkit was my tool of choice back then, but I remember using early Adaptec's VCD Creator as well. Early Nero didn't create standard-compliant VCDs for some reason AFAIR, they didn't play on standalone vcd players at all.

Well, instead of just gloating about it, damn it, post some details!!!

*lol* j/k

So far, I have had no luck getting the VCDEasy and FireBurner method to work according to Baldrick's guide. The guide needs updating, as there are newer versions of the tools than those in the guide. I will install an earlier version of the tools if I get desperate enough.

You should post an online guide for us newbies! I think I may have access to a legit copy of the Philips VCD Toolkit (one of my clients is a video professional with a healthy software library ). In the meantime, I may contact Baldrick and ask if there are any updates to the guide mentioned above.

How big would your example disc image be? I can give you FTP access to my server if you are willing to upload.

[berry_lthird]

AHHHHHHHYAAAAAHHHHHH!!!!


Finally.........SUCCESS!!!

I used the procedure outlined by Baldirck:

https://www.videohelp.com/forum/userguides/113432.php

The problem came with FireBurner. I was making coasters with this damn thing! But, I finally figured out the settings:

--First, go to "Options" from the file menu
--Then, under the "Device Options" tab, choose "Track-at-Once" (thanks vitualis!)

Leave everything else as-is! Now BURN BABY BURN!!!

I cannot guarantee your success, but I am using the LG GSA-4081B all-formats burner, in case anyone here is interested.

Next, I'm going to try to use the Philips VCD ToolKit method. I was able to find the application for free download HERE:

https://www.videohelp.com/VCD2TK_Intro.htm

Good hunting!

[berry_lthird]

New gaols:

--Use VCD(A) method described by Baldrick above to create an S/VCD using higher-quality MPEG-2 video (worked fine before with just MPEG-1)
--Enable CD text for audio tracks (if FireBurner supports it -??-)

I don't think my burner (LG GSA-4081B) supports the writing of CD Text, though.

I'll keep everyone appraised on my progress!

Wish me luck!

[p_l]

Good luck! I'm following your progress with interest. So your CD plays as a VCD in a DVD player and as an audio CD in an audio CD player?

[Cornucopia]

Vitualis knows what he's talking about and you should listen to him. Couple points of correction, however...

1. SVCD doesn't support CDDA audio tracks as part of the spec (although, it might be possible to create a non-compliant SVCD with audio tracks). VCD does support CDDA.

2. It's possible to create multi-session VCD's, etc. I have done so. However, it's not a good idea at all, cuz it greatly messes with the TOC. Specifically, CDDA, VCD & SVCD all require and expect single (first) session only (Enhanced Audio CD notwithstanding).

3. The VCDImager website is still there, just not updated. It can be reached by clicking through the "I.P. protest" info on the 1st page(unless it's changed again in the last 2 months).

For my part, I would recommend that you use Philips VCDToolkit, in particular, to create the VCD with CDDA. It is by far the most compliant in that area.
I've tried this a number of times in the past, and have had mixed success. It is possible to create a valid, on spec disc like you want; the problem is that not all players will interpret it the way you expect them to. This can't be overcome.

Look at some of my past posts for more on techniques.

Scott

[berry_lthird]

Good luck! I'm following your progress with interest. So your CD plays as a VCD in a DVD player and as an audio CD in an audio CD player?

Why yes, yes it does!

It also has an Autorun.inf file that displays a custom icon and launches a Macromedia Director exeutable when insterted into a computer. The Windows Media Player treats it like a regular audio CD, however!

I forgot to list as one of my goals to add a simple VCD menu OR have the VCD portion play automatically. As it stands, I have to manually press "Play" for the VCD to play in a set-top DVD player.

Thank you for your encouragement!

Vitualis knows what he's talking about and you should listen to him.

Oh, there was never once a doubt!

However, my original supposition of creating a "dummy" (first) audio track has been confirmed @ http://www.cs2cd.com

Don't know what tools they are using, but I'll stick with Baldrick's method, as it starts CD audio from track 1.

Couple points of correction, however...

1. SVCD doesn't support CDDA audio tracks as part of the spec (although, it might be possible to create a non-compliant SVCD with audio tracks). VCD does support CDDA.

2. It's possible to create multi-session VCD's, etc. I have done so. However, it's not a good idea at all, cuz it greatly messes with the TOC. Specifically, CDDA, VCD & SVCD all require and expect single (first) session only (Enhanced Audio CD notwithstanding).

3. The VCDImager website is still there, just not updated. It can be reached by clicking through the "I.P. protest" info on the 1st page(unless it's changed again in the last 2 months).

For my part, I would recommend that you use Philips VCDToolkit, in particular, to create the VCD with CDDA. It is by far the most compliant in that area.
I've tried this a number of times in the past, and have had mixed success. It is possible to create a valid, on spec disc like you want; the problem is that not all players will interpret it the way you expect them to. This can't be overcome.

Look at some of my past posts for more on techniques.

Scott

The VCDToolkit approach does not look pretty, and I must admit that, as a newbie, I find the procedure a bit intimidating!

I realize that there are caveats to these disc chimera. I couldn't get the audio to play in an older CD player, for example (but then, I wouldn't be surprised if it didn't play any audio CD-R as old as it is).

Is there any way to make a non-compliant VCD using higher-quality video (i.e., MPEG-2)?

Also: Have you tried the VCDEasy approach as outlined by Baldrick? And if so, were you able to create a menu? That is my next task.

Thanks for all the positive feedback, comrades!

8)

[berry_lthird]

My homework for building VCD menus using VCDEasy:

https://www.videohelp.com/author#3;27

[vitualis]

I forgot to list as one of my goals to add a simple VCD menu OR have the VCD portion play automatically. As it stands, I have to manually press "Play" for the VCD to play in a set-top DVD player.

This is a consequence of your DVD player. Many DVD players do not autorun a VCD. This behaviour cannot be changed by anything you author on the VCD unfortunately.

1. SVCD doesn't support CDDA audio tracks as part of the spec (although, it might be possible to create a non-compliant SVCD with audio tracks). VCD does support CDDA.

Yep, this is correct. But a minor issue. If you use something like the Philips VCD Toolkit, then the VCD with reference the CD-DA tracks in the PBC and they will show up in the ISO filesystem. However, functionally there is almost no difference. Technically speaking, the Fireburner method is a hack but it works just the same. You can use the Fireburner method for both VCDs and SVCDs.

2. It's possible to create multi-session VCD's, etc. I have done so. However, it's not a good idea at all, cuz it greatly messes with the TOC. Specifically, CDDA, VCD & SVCD all require and expect single (first) session only (Enhanced Audio CD notwithstanding).

I stand by my previous statement. You could probably make anything you want, but changes are you're going to produce a non-working VCDs.

There are probably ways such that you could create a VCD/CDDA disc such that all audio players will ignore the non-audio data. For example, by authoring the VCD such that all content is kept in the first track (i.e., everything is in "segment files" rather than "sequence files" and then setting a large audio ?pre-gap. I know of no tools that can do this but hypothetically, it should work.

Regards.

[DereX888]

Well, instead of just gloating about it, damn it, post some details!!!

*lol* j/k

So far, I have had no luck getting the VCDEasy and FireBurner method to work according to Baldrick's guide. The guide needs updating, as there are newer versions of the tools than those in the guide. I will install an earlier version of the tools if I get desperate enough.
[...]
You should post an online guide for us newbies!

Well, as your later posts show youve finally made it
I have never been fan of FireBurner, so I won't comment.
As for guides - this thing is so old that there must be 100s of guides available, anyone can use google and search for cd-extra, vcd with audio tracks, mixed-mode cd etc etc...

[Branroyal]

I use a little program on linux called vcd-ru from china that adds cdda to vcd's.

[Cornucopia]

If it's not against copyright restrictions, etc, can you post a link? I'd be interested in checking it out..

Scott