TMPGEnc: Should I select 3:2 pulldown for a 23.976 source?

[p_l]

Just checking...

I have an XviD that VirtualDub indentifies as being 23.976 fps.



When I import it into TMPGEnc Plus 2.58.44.152 to convert it to DVD-compliant MPEG-2, the Content of Video section reads Video Movie, and on the Video tab it indicates a framerate of 29.97. But if I change the Content of Video to Film Movie, on the Video tab it says the framerate is 23.976 fps (internally 29.97fps), and the Encode Mode now reads 3:2 pulldown when playback.





First question: I should do this with a 23.976 source, right? I mean manually change the Content of Video to Film Movie?



Second question: If I do that, in the Advanced tab Inverse Telecine is now checked. Should I leave it checked or not? And should I check the 3:2 pulldown box or not?

[bazooka]

If the source is 23 fps then leave it 23 fps.

[p_l]

When you say "leave it at 23 fps," you mean change the Content of Video from Video Movie to Film Movie, as I describe above, so it will be read and encoded by TMPGEnc at 23fps?

I ask because if you use TMPGEnc Xpress, it automatically applies a 3:2 pulldown flag when encoding a 23.976 fps source, right?

[adam]

If the source is 23.976fps then you want to set output framerate to 23.976fps (29.97fps internal) and you want to enable the 3:2 pulldown when playback. This is all on the video tab.

For such a source you should not enable the 3:2 pulldown or IVTC filters on the advanced tab. IVTC is for a 29.97fps that you want to convert to 23.976fps, and the 3:2 pulldown filter is for converting 23.976fps sources to 29.97fps.

TMPGenc thinks you have a 29.97fps source. When you tell it you want to output to 23.976fps it assumes you want to convert to this, meaning it must be inverse telecined, so that's why it enables that filter. Since your source is already 23.976fps there is no reason for this. This is why you should not trust TMPGenc's source analysis function. Honestly, I think you'd be much better off if you just disable the silly wizard altogether.

[p_l]

If the source is 23.976fps then you want to set output framerate to 23.976fps (29.97fps internal) and you want to enable the 3:2 pulldown when playback. This is all on the video tab.

But those options are only there if the Video Content is changed to Film Movie. Otherwise it's grayed out at 29.97fps.

OK, so I do have to change the Video content to Film Movie (so I get 23.976fps (29.97fps internal) and 3:2 pulldown when playback on the Video tab), then I UNcheck IVTC on the Advanced tab, right?

Thanks for the clarification. I guess TMPGEnc isn't recognizing my 23.976 source correctly, then. I've got to do it myself.

[FulciLives]

If the source is 23.976fps then you want to set output framerate to 23.976fps (29.97fps internal) and you want to enable the 3:2 pulldown when playback. This is all on the video tab.

For such a source you should not enable the 3:2 pulldown or IVTC filters on the advanced tab. IVTC is for a 29.97fps that you want to convert to 23.976fps, and the 3:2 pulldown filter is for converting 23.976fps sources to 29.97fps.

Adam,

I of course agree with you there and I do bow down to your supreme knowledge when it comes to video stuff so don't take this the wrong way ... just trying to clarify things ...

Wouldn't he also have to set the VIDEO TYPE from interlaced to non-interlaced OR does that happen automatically when you select FILM MOVIE for the CONTENT OF VIDEO option?

Been a while since I used TMPGEnc Plus as I've "moved on" to CCE

Also one thing that might be worth mentioning ... I tried using DVD-Lab several versions ago (so maybe this is not an issue anymore) but I had A/V sync problem with DVD-Lab and I narrowed it down to the fact that it does not like the way TMPGEnc Plus does a "soft pulldown" so while I think this is much more a DVD-Lab issue than a TMPGEnc Plus issue it might be wise to just encode at 23.976fps without pulldown then apply a "hard pulldown" after the fact by using PULLDOWN.EXE ... at least for people who intend to use DVD-Lab as their DVD Authoring application.

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[adam]

p_l its going to lock certain settings that would be required for the source it detects. If you know your source is FILM then just set it as such.

Yes FulciLives he will have to otherwise set his source info correctly, so it should be set to non-interlaced on the advanced tab.

I've heard of compatibility problems with TMPGEnc's setting of the pulldown flags, which seems strange to me since its just changing flags. I don't understand how that can be screwed up, but that may be what is happening. I prefer pulldown.exe too.

[FulciLives]

I've heard of compatibility problems with TMPGEnc's setting of the pulldown flags, which seems strange to me since its just changing flags. I don't understand how that can be screwed up, but that may be what is happening. I prefer pulldown.exe too.

I used TMPGEnc Plus a lot back in the day and back then I either used SpruceUP or sometimes (rarely) Ulead MF2 (with the DO NOT CONVERT COMPLAINT FILES option checkmared) and I never had problems with TMPGEnc Plus encoded files using the built-in 3-2 pulldown option.

It was only when I tried to use DVD-Lab that I had that problem (lack of A/V sync). However, the same M2V and PCM WAV (it was a short 75 minute program so I used PCM WAV which I rarely do) authored witout sync issues in SpruceUP as well as in TMPGEnc DVD Author (which was somewhat new then and it was my first time using it).

Rather than re-encode this particular project to work with DVD-Lab I just used TMPGEnc DVD Author which I eventually registered and use all the time now.

I decided to kick DVD-Lab to the curb (thankfully I was still in the trail period and had not spent money on it).

Now I almost exclusively use CCE so when I have a 23.976fps source I use PULLDOWN.EXE but I have never tried DVD-Lab again even though I have since wiped out my HDD and installed everything fresh opening me up again to the possibility of the trail period.

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[p_l]

p_l its going to lock certain settings that would be required for the source it detects. If you know your source is FILM then just set it as such.

Yes FulciLives he will have to otherwise set his source info correctly, so it should be set to non-interlaced on the advanced tab.

...because 23.976fps is progressive, not interlaced like 29.97fps is, correct?

So, you say to set it to non-interlaced on the Advanced tab. I also noticed that if I set it to Non-interlace on Expert Setting for Source | Video Type, it then shows up as Non-interlace (progressive) on the Advanced tab as well.

[adam]

23.976fps and 29.97fps can both be either progressive or interlaced. But a 23.976fps source will typically be progressive, and if it originated from a DVD then it will almost surely be progressive.

Yes, changing the source settings in the wizard apply those settings to the normal settings windows in TMPGEnc. Its just a front end. In my opinion it just makes things more complicated.

[p_l]

How about an XviD made from an HDTV broadcast, will that typically be progressive or interlaced? Offhand, I would guess progressive (i.e., non-interlaced), but is there a quick way of checking whether an XviD is progressive or interlaced? Something quick and easy, like GSpot? Unfortunately, GSpot doesn't indicate progressive or interlaced...



...and neither does Vdub.

[Skynet107]

I know you don't want to hear this p_l, but I have talked to many people trying to convert HD TV releases to DVD with TMPGEnc and had nothing but problems. I have yet to talk to someone that actually converted the HDTV rips to DVD using TMPGEnc without having problems. They either had sync issues, incorrect "motion" and other wierd problems.

I tried to convert an episode of "LOST" a few weeks ago using TMPGEnc. The conversion worked but I had sync issues, and I am POSITIVE I had everything set correctly. I went back to CCE and have converted around 20 HD releases including LOST and Smallville with perfect results.

If you really insist on using TMPGEnc then I would check "do not frame rate conversion" and make sure your framerate is 23.976. Basically you need to set TMPGEnc to do NOTHING to the framerate, no pulldown (add it later) no nothing just a plain 23.976 encode. And your source is most certainly progressive, the original broadcast is 23.976 progressive. (or it could be converted from an interlaced source, some of the HD rips are done from 1080i material) All the Xvid releases are progressive. If they are not, they get "nuked"

oh ya and make sure you do 16:9 the original is 16:9, if you do 4:3 encodes you will sacrafice quality. And USE AVIsynth to resize, it will look 5 times better, the lanczos re-size is MUCH higher quality than what TMPGEnc does. I did comparisons and could not believe the difference.

[p_l]

They either had sync issues, incorrect "motion" and other wierd problems.

Yup, you're right, and it's happened again. That's why I had switched to TMPGEnc XPress a while back, and problem solved. But just recently I've had a file that XPress choked on, so I thought I'd go back to TMPGEnc Plus. The same sync issues, incorrect "motion" and other weird problems again. I guess, despite paying really close attention to trying to get all the settings right, TMPGEnc Plus just doesn't like those HDTV XviD files.

Thanks to your advice on that other thread, I've succeeded in getting TMPGEnc XPress to load and encode (using the demuxed video only), so I'm abandoning TMPGEnc Plus for good for those types of files from now on.

[p_l]

If the source is 23.976fps then you want to set output framerate to 23.976fps (29.97fps internal) and you want to enable the 3:2 pulldown when playback. This is all on the video tab.

For such a source you should not enable the 3:2 pulldown or IVTC filters on the advanced tab. IVTC is for a 29.97fps that you want to convert to 23.976fps, and the 3:2 pulldown filter is for converting 23.976fps sources to 29.97fps.

TMPGenc thinks you have a 29.97fps source. When you tell it you want to output to 23.976fps it assumes you want to convert to this, meaning it must be inverse telecined, so that's why it enables that filter. Since your source is already 23.976fps there is no reason for this. This is why you should not trust TMPGenc's source analysis function. Honestly, I think you'd be much better off if you just disable the silly wizard altogether.

A follow-up:
UNchecking Inverse telecine, as you suggest, produced a horribly jumpy and out-of-sync MPEG-2 file. I encoded again, this time leaving it checked, as it is by default, and the result was a good encode.



So, manually choosing Film movie for Content of video, then leaving all the defaults, except for Full Screen (keep aspect ratio) of course, produce the correct results in my case.

[adam]

A 23.976fps source cannot, and should not, be inverse telecined. I cannot speak for what TMPGenc is doing but since it is incorrectly detecting your source to begin with, I think its naturally possible that is it treating your source incorrectly. Once again, the best suggestion I can give you is to just disable the wizard.