Taiyo Yuden to introduce copy protection to DVD-R's

[louv68]

This news off of Doom9.org's website for 9/29/04

http://www.doom9.org/

[bazooka]

It will not work.

If it can be played, it can be copied.

[JohnnyCNote]

Sounds like a good reason to boycott TY....

[bazooka]

Sounds like a good reason to boycott TY....

Someone will find a way around it.

[aero]

It will not work.
If it can be played, it can be copied.

I think you miss the point. From what I understand this has to do with stand alone tivo like recorders. probably at a future date these stand alone recorder will require media that has this code (I think there is already dvd-r/w cprm media). at that point, in theory, only cprm compliant players will be able to playback the disk.

I could be wrong but perhaps the material is streamed to the box, can't be digitally ouputed to a non cprm device by the box, can be recorded but only to cprm coded disks and only played back on a crpm device.

[Cobra]

Surely an optical drive in a PC could be adapted to play this media back? Bazooka is correct - if it can be played, it can most definitely be copied.

[ViRaL1]

...and if it can only be played on a limited number of machines, no one will buy it, making it obsolete.

[aero]

Surely an optical drive in a PC could be adapted to play this media back? Bazooka is correct - if it can be played, it can most definitely be copied.

No offense but are you saying the average user can copy xbox disks on your pc? Wait you can't.

I am not saying I know much about this, but when we say "if it can be played it can be copied" we only refer to disks that can be played on everything.

from what I can tell these disks are coded only to be played on complient devices if recorded with protected data.

[Dr_Layne]

Surely an optical drive in a PC could be adapted to play this media back? Bazooka is correct - if it can be played, it can most definitely be copied.

No offense but are you saying the average user can copy xbox disks on your pc? Wait you can't.

I am not saying I know much about this, but when we say "if it can be played it can be copied" we only refer to disks that can be played on everything.

from what I can tell these disks are coded only to be played on complient devices if recorded with protected data.

Then people will not buy it if they cannot play the recorded disc on any plain jane dvd player.

Steve

[yoda313]

Hello,

Worse comes to worse there's always the analoge hole.

Kevin

[indolikaa]

This sounds like CPRM to me. Am I reading this wrong?

[aero]

Then people will not buy it if they cannot play the recorded disc on any plain jane dvd player.
Steve

buy it? do you plan on boycotting digital satcable and ota broadcasts?

in the case of the stand alone recorders, I could be wrong, but my understanding is this is in most recorders being introduced have/will have cprm.

Does dvdhelp list which stand alone recorders are not cprm? how about software like powerdvd?

One can read many people from japan discussing this as it seems to be being implimented, I don;t think they all are new to technology.

[bazooka]

Surely an optical drive in a PC could be adapted to play this media back? Bazooka is correct - if it can be played, it can most definitely be copied.

No offense but are you saying the average user can copy xbox disks on your pc? Wait you can't.

I am not saying I know much about this, but when we say "if it can be played it can be copied" we only refer to disks that can be played on everything.

from what I can tell these disks are coded only to be played on complient devices if recorded with protected data.

Technically,

Xbox discs can be copied. The computer will see the disc. Even though it does not know what is on the discs. You can still copy it.

I can copy playstation discs.

What is your point Aero?

Once again I must disagree with you.

[sammie]

CPRM, exactly. One of the hang ups that studios have over picking next HD format is CPRM. They want it required and embedded in all devices PCs or set top. Haven't heard anything lately, but a couple of years ago they were insisting on something at the monitor level even.

Of course the local WalMart had an entire wall section of all sorts of great!! old movies for $1 a piece. Not sure on the quality obviously, but I love older movies and might just have to satisfy my movie watching with that if they go too far. Seriously, now that the kids are out of the Disney stage, about the only movies we have purchased are the LOTR series. We've rented a few recent hits only to be mostly disappointed. I'd say 90% of my efforts the last couple of years has been in backing up my Vid Tape collection before they all become a sticky useless mess..... after that? Well I don't really want to see T-IV the 50 something Gubernator's return. In short, if it goes too far I have no problem boycotting.....um, in fact you might say I am already. 8)

[aero]

Xbox discs can be copied. The computer will see the disc. Even though it does not know what is on the discs. You can still copy it.

LOL. you are saying you rip xbox disks on your computer's reader. lol, that is news to all the xbox modders out there (I'm one). I have all my xbox games on a 250 gig hd and I know exactly what is invovled. can you ftp from the average broadcast pvr dvd recorder? can you install a new bios easily?

Since you don't have the facts why are you saying this?

[bazooka]

I am not saying I copy the discs. I do not even have an XBOX.

I grew up and quit messing with consoles.

I was stating that even if the computer does not know what is on the disc, it can still be copied.

Now if you want the Xbox to recognize it, that is a different story, but it can be copied.

Every copy protection to date has been broken.

[yoda313]

Hello,

Every copy protection to date has been broken.

Apparently the new dvd audio hasn't. Some hear have said they can't do a rip to get the 5.1 off the disc. It may have been since I've read that but don't know. I'm sure it's possible to break it but it seems not to have been yet.

Kevin

[bazooka]

Dvdaudio is still in it's infancy stage.

Once more people mess with it, it will be broken.

[adam]

Divx (the Circuit City one) was never broken.

[sammie]

Divx (the Circuit City one) was never broken.

Well.............I'd argue it was broken (as in logic) before it started. But seriously the product was so DOA, how hard or long did anyone try?

[bazooka]

Divx (the Circuit City one) was never broken.

The people were not buying the product. That is why it went out of business.

[aero]

I was stating that even if the computer does not know what is on the disc, it can still be copied.
Now if you want the Xbox to recognize it, that is a different story, but it can be copied.

I don't wish to venture to guess what you are trying to prove by saying without a modified xbox you you can produce a non working non usable copy of an xbox game your computer. I don't think you understand the point you have to modify the hardware and bios.

I also don't think you understasnd the basics of the cprm as it applies to broadcast and the cprm recorders.

for example are you under the impression that HDTivo isn't cprm. do you think set top hd prvs will be?

Indeed there will always be analog holes, but this existed with macrovision hack for dvd to chs before widely used decss and not many took advantage if that.

I think you are underestimating the convergence of Induce and the flag.

[adam]

Divx was indeed dead on arrival but it still sold millions of units and there was indeed a large community trying to crack it, and it continued for a number of years until the format finally became defunct. The fact that it was never broken had less to do with its unpopularity as it did with a VERY controlled protection. It was the same principle as CSS keys but the keys were located on a remote server. You couldn't access the keys, to do anything other then play it, without hacking their server in some way. That's simply good protection, in the sense that it works, not in the sense that its welcome.

[aero]

not a question of a protection's ultimate breakability. It is a question of ease and cost.

there are plenty of protection schemes that are "broken" yet work most or 99.9% of the time.

eg satelite. how are they making billions a year when everyone can get it for free. hmm?

that is why I mentinned xbox. xbox title purchases have kept up. you can not rip xbox titles on your pc's drive but you can modify the hardware ont he xbox. still the great majority haven't. it is a sufficient complexity barrier for the average consumer

ultimate breakability of copy protection deos not equal no utility. if it did you wouldn't have css on anything since 2002, right?

[adam]

Exactly. Copy protection is not aimed at people who post on forums like this. Even with DVD burners well established on the market, most people are still amazed when they hear that its possible to copy a commercial DVD.

[Webster]

I was stating that even if the computer does not know what is on the disc, it can still be copied.

This statement is wrong in regarding to Xbox.
You can not copy the disk without FTP to a modded Xbox. So you can forget the statement "if you can play it, you can copy it" in this case.

[MOVIEGEEK]

How I understand CPRM is if a recorder uses it then it still can be copied on an older(non CPRM) drive/recorder because the CPRM discs have to be backward compatible.
As of now only standalone recorders are using CPRM(mainly in Japan):
www.osta.org/technology/dvdqa/dvdqa7.htm

[aero]

I was stating that even if the computer does not know what is on the disc, it can still be copied.

This statement is wrong in regarding to Xbox.
You can not copy the disk without FTP to a modded Xbox. So you can forget the statement "if you can play it, you can copy it" in this case.

thank you. I don't think the guy understood he was proving my point about hardware.

How I understand CPRM is if a recorder uses it then it still can be copied on an older(non CPRM) drive/recorder because the CPRM discs have to be backward compatible.
As of now only standalone recorders are using CPRM(mainly in Japan):
www.osta.org/technology/dvdqa/dvdqa7.htm

Indeed. this is why I think you are going to see the impact is in hd pvr for ota, cable and sat. Does dvdhelp even indicate which stand alones are cprm?

[DereX888]

that is why I mentinned xbox. xbox title purchases have kept up. you can not rip xbox titles on your pc's drive but you can modify the hardware ont he xbox. still the great majority haven't. it is a sufficient complexity barrier for the average consumer

ultimate breakability of copy protection deos not equal no utility. if it did you wouldn't have css on anything since 2002, right?

xbox, playstation, any other consoles - it is a WRONG example.
You should realise that average console consumer is probably about 13 year old, how can you expect such average consumer to do anything else but playing on it?
And by the time he gets the knowledge and interest in 'cracking' it up for his own use - he will outgrew it (example - my bro; he rather chase skirts nowday than use his already sufficient knowledge for modding his xbox; I doubt he even turn it on more than once in a blue moon since he was 20y.o.)

Movies, on any media format is different story. Simply market for movies is much much bigger than anything else, thus real 'pirates' - organized gangs and such, not the average Joe Schmos - they will always keep an eye on any new copy protection or format, and without a doubt they will break it; and it will 'leak' out to the general public sooner or later.

Everything can be cracked, question is how much is it worth to do so.
And lets not forget geek factor - some another bored teenage geek will do it just because he can

[Capmaster]

example - my bro; he rather chase skirts nowday than use his already sufficient knowledge for modding his xbox; I doubt he even turn it on more than once in a blue moon since he was 20y.o.

Atta boy! There's hope for the lad

Good post DereX. Hits the nail on the head