Taiyo Yuden to introduce copy protection to DVD-R's

[lordsmurf]

You should realise that average console consumer is probably about 13 year old

Where did this number come from? I'm calling BS on it.

Anyway, PS2 is simple. Copy disc-to-disc with Prassi. Swap top about $35, with switch load discs. Easy.

XBOX. Another easy one. Clip in modchip. Hardest part is finding a hex screwdriver. Load software on XBOX. Load freeware on PC. FTP in just like any FTP. Copy stuff to PC. Burn XISO images made with PC freeware. This takes less than 10 minutes to figure out.

If we're going to be so hellbent on "who can copy DVDs" most people are just now hearing about DVD-R/+R media, but many, as forum posts show, are still clueless on how to copy movies. Most of us know DVD Decrypter (ISO read, ISO write) and then DVD Shrink if its DVD9.

With all the documentation out there, this stuff can be learned in one evening by anybody that is not afraid of a computer, and mildly determined to make it work out.

Most "copy protection" is simpler than people want to realize. It's more like a speed bump, not a great wall of China.

This post no way encourages piracy.

Until products come with lifetime warranties, guarantees to NEVER be discontinued, and are indestructible, consumers should have full rights to do whatever is scientifically possible to protect their property (tangible goods, not fluffy "intellectual" intangibles like companies want to "protect").

[MikieV]

Anyway, PS2 is simple. ...

XBOX. Another easy one....

Most "copy protection" is simpler than people want to realize. It's more like a speed bump, not a great wall of China.

This post no way encourages piracy.

What concerns me is that "they" have learned these lessons, as well.

Standalone players have failed as secure devices, and so I expect the next generation to use the near-universal availability of internet access to require units that "phone home" - which ups the ante, considerably.

People talk about breaking copy-protection of games and DVDs, but you don't hear anyone talking about breaking the protection on Home-banking or online purchases (or Circuit City Divx, Adam?). I would be very surprised if that is not the level of protection that "they" dream about - and are working to implement. i.e. What happens to the "analog hole" when they stop putting those connections on the players - and move to DVI that "handshakes" with the display (ala some HDTV discussions)?

Divx-protected DVDs only failed because it was early in the DVD's introduction, and the studios were experimenting with Divx and CSS formats - with both in circulation, at the same time. We voted with our wallets - but they must realise their error was in giving us a vote at all. Which is why I am curious to see how the Blu-ray vs HD-DVD format "war" unfolds. Will they repeat their earlier mistake of allowing us to vote for the "lesser of two evils"?

CSS-encrypted DVDs were/are popular because most people couldn't care less that they are copy-protected. They are similar to the majority of people who didn't care about Macrovision on VHS.

If the studios are smart, they will use the same methods to introduce a new, more-secure, format that they used when introducing DVDs - to replace VHS. They will "draw a line in the sand" with regard to new releases - with all the extra features and footage only released on the new format, and only "plain vanilla" DVD releases.

"We" will shun a secure, non-backward-compatible format - while "they" laugh all the way to the bank, with the money from the people - lots of them - who couldn't care less.

Mike

[lordsmurf]

but you don't hear anyone talking about breaking the protection on Home-banking or online purchases

You do if you're in the right place. There's meeting places for all kinds of this stuff, and I read about it happening in those free business magazines I get all the time (bunch of stuff I signed up for one time).

All that stuff you conclude ... never gonna happen. Consumers still control the marketplace, not the companies.

[aero]

xbox, playstation, any other consoles - it is a WRONG example.
You should realise that average console consumer is probably about 13 year old, how can you expect such average consumer to do anything else but playing on it?

Wow, you have it backwords

If you are disputing my use of the xbox example, I think you have it exactly opposite. the xbox, both in its organic customer base, as well as the base after mod possibilites were found, attracts THE most technically adept demographic out there.

to suggest otherwise is simple ignorance of the facts or technophile culture.

I would say xbox owners are certainly a higher demographic in technical knowledge than stand alone dvd recorder owners.

[glockjs]

yeah just like the current dvd protection one once "unbreakable". and ps2 was "unbreakable" too. somebody on here said before if there's a man who can make it, there's a man who can break it. the only way its gonna be slowed down is to start hooking everything up to the internet, but even then the "unbreakable" will be broken. and so the cycle goes on.

[MikieV]

All that stuff you conclude ... never gonna happen. Consumers still control the marketplace, not the companies.

I hope you are right, but I don't think the current "ease" of copying will exist - a couple years from now.

The studios believed that CSS was un-breakable - or else they never would have accepted it as a standard for distribution. With all their noise about losses to "piracy", are they going to accept one of the new standards if it doesn't significantly improve on the current encryption-model? Especially when they can refuse to issue their "content" on a new format - without any loss of income? Hasn't the lack of pre-recorded content been the "kiss-of-death" to formats?

Equipment manufacturers will be vying for the studios approval, so they can have enough content to make their formats viable. Studios can hold-out, because there will be nothing to record/play copies of their HD material (EDIT - oops!, forgot about HD-Tivo. so much for this argument!)- and they can milk the pay-per-view cash cow, with no threat of people paying once, and recording for repeat viewing. A studio idea of heaven, no doubt. Once an acceptable format is found, they can release their material to a pent-up demand. win - win

In a different market, I remember discussions about Microsoft's plans to shift customers to a subscrition model for software, vice the current purchase model. When the loss of customers was brought up, the answer was Microsoft could afford to drive-away a significant percentage of their current customers (15%, 20%??) - because the steady revenue from the remaining customers would smooth-out their current boom/bust cycle of income from upgrade cycles, and make their financial forecasts more stable.

I tend to believe the studios are thinking along similar lines. That they can introduce a new, secure, format - and wait for people to slowly adopt it. The more people who adopted the new format, the less their "percieved" losses to copying, and they would still have the income from the people who hadn't switched to the new format. The studios wouldn't lose any income, but the equipment manufacturers would not be thrilled about such a slow ROI.

An (admittedly) farther reach is using George Lucas as an example of how consumers don't control a marketplace. In interviews, he states he released the 1st series of (special-edition) Star Wars movies on DVD now - a few years earlier than planned - because he felt the piracy of DVDs years from now would have meant no profit (at their originally-planned release date). He also has no intention - for artistic reasons - of releasing the original versions of those movies on DVD. If people want them, he says, they can buy them on VHS.

So, Lucas is worried about losses to DVD-piracy increasing, over the next few years - and has decided against releasing content people would be willing to pay for. Are others in Hollywood using his ideas as food for thought?

Sheesh, any minute now, I expect to find myself typing "The sky is falling, the sky is falling..."

Enough raining on everyone's parade!

Mike

[MikieV]

...the only way its gonna be slowed down is to start hooking everything up to the internet, but even then the "unbreakable" will be broken. and so the cycle goes on.

Yes,

And at what point do diminishing returns kick-in? When does it stop becoming "easy" to make a copy? When does it become "not worth the effort"?

Mike

[yoda313]

Hello,

Well I for one would not want to HAVE to go online to watch a professionally encoded movie I have already purchased. Since I'm still on dialup it would be timeconsuming and counterproductive to watch a media format that requires activation/verification for every viewing. Just the thought of that gives me chills. It would make the most sense for hollywood to enforce this kind of encryption but consumers for the most part wouldn't want to be inconvinienced by this kind of requirement (like the circuit city divx format).

Hopefully there will be a newer way to allow standalone viewing of media discs while protecting its contents.

Kevin

[DereX888]

xbox, playstation, any other consoles - it is a WRONG example.
You should realise that average console consumer is probably about 13 year old, how can you expect such average consumer to do anything else but playing on it?

Wow, you have it backwords

If you are disputing my use of the xbox example, I think you have it exactly opposite. the xbox, both in its organic customer base, as well as the base after mod possibilites were found, attracts THE most technically adept demographic out there.

to suggest otherwise is simple ignorance of the facts or technophile culture.

I would say xbox owners are certainly a higher demographic in technical knowledge than stand alone dvd recorder owners.

You should realise that average console consumer is probably about 13 year old

Where did this number come from? I'm calling BS on it.
.

I dont have any statistical data to prove it, however caling BS on it is rather harsh, smurfie!
I spent one summer working as a salesperson in one of the largest canadian retail chains.
Majority of the console buyers were young teens with their parent(s). If it were adults buying them, you knew right away they were buying it as a gift for some kid. I can only recall perhaps 1 or 2 young adult nerds who bought xbox or ps2 for themselves. Im not going to argue about who owns them or not, forum full of nerds (like this one) is a wrong place to do so, but no one is gonna tell me Im wrong on this one

[andkiich]

No offense but are you saying the average user can copy xbox disks on your pc? Wait you can't.

WRONG!!

[lordsmurf]

DereX888, I know it's not 13. It's been a while since I saw the demographics, but the console makers and companies publish these findings pretty often. Quarterly, in fact. You cannot go solely off what you saw in one store.

[DereX888]

DereX888, I know it's not 13. It's been a while since I saw the demographics, but the console makers and companies publish these findings pretty often. Quarterly, in fact. You cannot go solely off what you saw in one store.

Well, I didnt say exactly 13, I wrote "probably about 13" meaning that most of console consumers are kids or teens without any advanced computer knowledge, thats all. And regardless of what "I saw" or what the makers of consoles state, Im rather sure Im right about that, since person with any advanced computer knowledge will rather 'customize' his computer than any limited device like consoles. Thats all what I meant.

[lordsmurf]

Age doesn't really mean anything either. I watched something on a news show (48 hours?) where a 15-y/o was using his dial-up net connection to pilfer millions in stolen ID theft transactions. I think it said he was 14 when he started.

But I see where you were going with it.

Most people don't know anything tech-wise. For those that do, little can stop them from breaking it.

[aero]

No offense but are you saying the average user can copy xbox disks on your pc? Wait you can't.

WRONG!!

you can not without a modified xbox. if you read trhe thread you would understand that is my point. It is not wrong.

[aero]

DereX888, I know it's not 13. It's been a while since I saw the demographics, but the console makers and companies publish these findings pretty often. Quarterly, in fact. You cannot go solely off what you saw in one store.

smurf you have it exactly correct. I learned about both hacking my xbox, changing the bios, etc from a 16 year old next door. he also explained to me how to copy dvd's-- something the average 30 year old with a phd in the sciences has no idea how to do.

[BJ_M]

average 30 year old with a phd in the sciences has no idea how to do

i don't know quite how you figure this -- and i dare say they either could figure it out pretty quickly or already know ..

at least most of them can read and write well - which i can't say for many of the high school kids i lecture to (some are excellent though) and ask questions here ..

[DereX888]

DereX888, I know it's not 13. It's been a while since I saw the demographics, but the console makers and companies publish these findings pretty often. Quarterly, in fact. You cannot go solely off what you saw in one store.

smurf you have it exactly correct. I learned about both hacking my xbox, changing the bios, etc from a 16 year old next door. he also explained to me how to copy dvd's-- something the average 30 year old with a phd in the sciences has no idea how to do.

This could only prove how lame educations is... that 30y.o. phd dude didn't learn how to read yet or what?

On the other hand I too know some respectable ppl with high education who haven't ever figured out how to setup their VCRs... VCR+ only made it more complicated for them... but hey, one of my uncles finally learned how programming of his digital cable PVR works (its point'n'click type hehe

Yet it still proves nothing. Average kid dont know shit, as well as your average 30y.o. phd dude. Nerds and geeks come in all sizes, races, and ages, and they are still minority.

[BJ_M]

oh yea -- programming a vcr is different ... much much more difficult than copying dvd's or even making them ..

i think it is the one time ive actually cracked open a manual ..

[DereX888]

oh yea -- programming a vcr is different ... much much more difficult than copying dvd's or even making them ..

i think it is the one time ive actually cracked open a manual ..

I admit it too

[lordsmurf]

Try setting the clock on your car stereo. I'm constantly pulling out the book when it has to be reset.

[Cornucopia]

RE: CLOCKs, VCR's--That's because the user interface is crap and not uniform!

RE: UNBREAKABLES--GameCube has never been cracked, DVD-Audio and SACD have been around for ~3+ years now, with no crack in sight.

RE: THE CONSUMER--IMHO, physical consumables will always be preferred over transient/intangible consumables, using the same analogy as why a cup, spoon are the shape they are--it's the most efficient and natural integration with the human organism.
Consumers, even technophobes, will not put up with a "standalone" machine that has to be situated to phone home--how would you do that with an In-Car player without Wi-Fi security problems or some stupid-ass umbilical that you have to plug in monthly? Even Joe Schmoe doesn't like "Big Brother".
Similarly, I believe a pre-recorded medium that is incompatible with a similar recordable medium will not ever make anywhere near the amount of money/market penetration that (current) media do. Probably won't ever even hit critical mass.

Scott

[lordsmurf]

Gamecube was cracked. Not easy, but it works.

[Cornucopia]

Gamecube was cracked. Not easy, but it works.

Ga-ga-ga-Going!! hmm...

[DereX888]

RE: CLOCKs, VCR's--That's because the user interface is crap and not uniform!

RE: UNBREAKABLES--GameCube has never been cracked, DVD-Audio and SACD have been around for ~3+ years now, with no crack in sight.

Scott

Clocks, VCRs - not crappy, just lack of any UI

GameCube has been broke long ago; or so I read about;

DVD-A - you can copy it in a very simple way: make iso image and burn iso image

SACD - hmm, you mean DTS tracks on a CD? Whats so difficult about copying *any* CD?

Correct meif Im wrong anywhere.

Consumers - yeah, I have very same opinion and agree with all what you've said.


edit: DVD-A and SACD are slightly longer around than 3 years! I had some Czech-released classical music SACD dated 1999, and IIRC my first DVD-A was some Japanese rock disc release-dated 98 which I received from my japanese friend in 99 as well. Me thinks

[Cornucopia]

If you have any info about how to BACK UP GameCubes correctly (and have them be playable) let me know as I have twins who are rough and sloppy with the discs, and I can't handle re-buying a new release at full retail (~$50US).

Some DVD-A's don't have encryption, yes those should be a simple Disc-to-Disc copy. What I was talking about was for those that are encrypted. If there isn't a crack for decrypting it, when you copy the disc (which it'll let you do), the resulting disc WILL be UNPLAYABLE.

Same goes for SACD. And I'm not talking about the std.-Rez "CD" layer here, I'm talking about the Hi-Rez SACD layer. Does it even show up as a file system in Windows (insert any other OS here)? AFAIK, ALL SACDs are encrypted at the SACD layer. Even being able to copy the files from the User Data area, doesn't mean it can copy the Encryption Keys (not in UD area).
Just to clarify--SACD=Sony/Philips SuperAudioCD, using DirectStreamDigital signal (SigmaDelta, not PCM) at ~2MHz sample rate, on DVD-type media (different file/directory structure though).

Timeline--SACD was out in Japan ~1999, DVD-A in 2000, but they didn't come out in any numbers in US until ~mid2001.

Scott

[DereX888]

I won't argue about technical infos, but youre right about SACD.

However the dates you gotta have wrong.

I know my first DVD-A (first bought in North America) was Stone Temple Pilots "Core" which I found at HMV store in Toronto just by some freaky luck (as I didnt expect to find any DVD-As in North America at all back then).
I have a good habit of keeping most of the receipts inside the cases, thus I had no problem to look up the date of purchase: 2/5/00, that means either February 5th or May 2nd of the year 2000.
And I remind you - I had japanese DVD-A long before that, at least for a year before I got this STP album.


edit: on the back cover of this DVD-A theres a line saying "Remixed for DVD-Audio by Nick DiDia, January 2000". Well, I think the purchase must have been made in May not February. Anyway it doesnt matter which month, because its still a year before you claim DVD-As entered US market.
So Im sorry, but I must disagree with you.

[ps2daddy]

If you have any info about how to BACK UP GameCubes correctly (and have them be playable) let me know as I have twins who are rough and sloppy with the discs, and I can't handle re-buying a new release at full retail (~$50US).

Look at PS2ownz.com you have to get a netowrk adaptor and you save the images to your pc and then play them from your pc via gamecube connected by ethernet. Cant put them on minidvdrs yet though.
Infinty-mods.com is working on a chip.

There are gamecube isos on P2P that people trade