Panasonic vs. Sony MiniDV

[smoki]

Hi,
i'm looking at 2 camcorders right now, and cannot make up my mind:

Sony DCR-HC14 or 16
--------------------------
800.000 Pixel
10x optical
nightshot
Zeiss objective

Panasonic NV-GS11
-----------------------
800.000 pixel
24x optical
stereo zoom mic
nightshot

They're both European versions, i don't know which are the US equivalents, thus it's very hard to find reviews... they're both entry level from Panasonic/Sony basically.

Panasonic has supposedy bad lowlight performance (grainy), but a good sharp image during the day. 24x optical zoom is way better than Sony's 10x also....Panasonic about 200g lighter...basically is there anything that justifies €50+ price difference other than the "brand"? Is Panasonic better than Sony or vice-versa?

Can anyone please help me choosing between the two?
Thanks in advance!

[broadway]

I have the Panasonic PV-GS15. And I am very happy with it.

I decided to go with it instead of the Sony because I didn't like the touchscreen LCD of the Sonys and because of the 24x zoom.

I mainly use it to shoot outdoors so I cannot comment on the low light capability.

I hook it up to my JVC DVD recorder using iLink/firewire and transfer my video over. Very easy. The GS11 won't have the firewire.

You might want to check out the reviews at www.camcorderinfo.com

[cumi]

Hi smoki,

I had the same consideration for a week and also couldn't decide between more camcorders and finally I ordered (i will get it in few days) a Canon MV-750i. It cost me 540 Euros, it should be a bit cheaper than the Sony one. It has also a lot of features...

Take a look at that. I got many recomendations for Canon.

[smoki]

thanks for the replies...
i just saw however they have a discount for the Panasonic GS30, going for 500 euros. Will search for reviews on that too...

the Canon 750i is 511 euros from what i can see...

@broadway: i think the GS11 does have Firewire, but i'll doublecheck that.
could you please post a video sample from the GS15 somewhere? I'd like to see what it looks like...

edit:
The prices are:

JVC GR-D23E (350 euro) - 16x optical
Canon MV700 (379 euro) - 18x optical
Panasonic GS11 (399 euro) - 24x
Panasonic GS15 (449 euro) - 24x
Sony HC14 (412 euro) - 10x
Sony HC16 (449 euro) - 10x

I would say my upper limit is around 450 euro for this "adventure"...

The Sony DCR-HC14 has a 1/4" CCD while all the others have 1/6" , does this affect somehow the video quality?

I also tried both the HC14 and the GS11/15 and the autofocus on the Sony seemed to be more responsive. The spot focus (touch on the lcd to focus) is absolutely cool. Is the 24x on the Panasonic then worthed if it takes ages to focus properly past 16x compared to Sony's 10x max??

I'm really confused here

[broadway]

@broadway: i think the GS11 does have Firewire, but i'll doublecheck that.
could you please post a video sample from the GS15 somewhere? I'd like to see what it looks like...

here's an example
outdoors in bright sunshine

[kisrum]

10x optical zoom is pretty limited, however Sony might have a nicer touch on the zoom button. My consumer-grade, six year old, 18x optical, Panasonic DV910 has an exceptionally jumpy zoom button which requires great care to achieve a slow zoom (admittedly they may have improved). Also, unbelievably, it didn't have AV in jacks except for firewire. Paid $1000.00 at the time.

Sony's low light image and and image stabilization have always been better.

Canon makes some nice stuff at the prosumer level, don't know anything about their consumer stuff.

I'd be tempted to just go with the best image and whichever feels best in your hand. Can you look these over in a store?

[smoki]

@kisrum: yes i can hold them in a store, but it's kinda hard to compare image quality over there...unless they hook them up to the little monitors they got.

@broadway: is that made using any kind of zoom? Cos it is kind of blurry/noisy Do you have a sample done in lower light conditions as well? (or a short clip) Many thanks in advance!

Just found out that JVC & Canon seem to pick up tape/zoom noise while recording...not good...

Why on Earth doesn't Sony have more than 10x optical zoom????? I'd buy it in an instant, but now i have to look at Panasonic's models Shame on you Sony!

[broadway]

[quote="smoki
@broadway: is that made using any kind of zoom? Cos it is kind of blurry/noisy Do you have a sample done in lower light conditions as well? (or a short clip) Many thanks in advance!
[/quote]

Sorry, I've only used it outdoors. I was using zoom at the time.
The capture frame doesn't really do it justice; the video itself looks great to me. Remember, the capture frame is a compressed JPEG.

[DVD_Ripper]

Outside of the nightshot go with the one that has lowest Lux setting. My SONY SUCKS for indoor evening / nite shooting.. .grainy as can be. Due to a very high LUX point. My Fathers HI8 is actually better indoors.

[T ft. D]

@kisrum: yes i can hold them in a store, but it's kinda hard to compare image quality over there...unless they hook them up to the little monitors they got.

@broadway: is that made using any kind of zoom? Cos it is kind of blurry/noisy Do you have a sample done in lower light conditions as well? (or a short clip) Many thanks in advance!

Just found out that JVC & Canon seem to pick up tape/zoom noise while recording...not good...

Why on Earth doesn't Sony have more than 10x optical zoom????? I'd buy it in an instant, but now i have to look at Panasonic's models Shame on you Sony!

Actually, JVC is THE brand with the fewest tape/zoom noise. Canon makes lots of noice, and some Sony cams also do make some noise.

The difference between panasonic and sony is small, but with Sony you ALWAYS pay also for the brand name. So my advice, buy the Panasonic.

As long as you don't buy my camera (the JVC DV500 your good, cause boy oh boy, what does that camera SUCK compared for the euros I paid for it... If there was a award "worst camera in the world" this cam would deff. win it !)

[smoki]

thanks for all the replies guys!

just came back from the store where i looked at all the models this time

some points:

- panasonic's 24x zoom is really a pain after 16-18x since u need a really stable hand even with SIS (super image stabilizer) enabled!

- sony hc14 is the "older" model, the zoom knob is more sensitive than Panny's but it seems to focus faster. Also the image on the LCD looks sharper.

- sony hc16 is the "newer" series, it has another casing than the hc14, it's slimmer and has a new battery model. It's also 100euro more than the gs11 / hc14...

- the JVC GR23 & Canon 700/750i look monstrous compared to the Panny/Sony,

In conclusion Panasonic seems to have the best features (24x zoom) for the money, even if the zoom above 18x is hard to handle and the image stabilizer seems to be worse than Sony's.

Tough call: prices (in euro) are 397 for the HC14 and 399 for the GS11.

Confusion at its best

[T ft. D]

thanks for all the replies guys!

just came back from the store where i looked at all the models this time

some points:

- panasonic's 24x zoom is really a pain after 16-18x since u need a really stable hand even with SIS (super image stabilizer) enabled!

- sony hc14 is the "older" model, the zoom knob is more sensitive than Panny's but it seems to focus faster. Also the image on the LCD looks sharper.

- sony hc16 is the "newer" series, it has another casing than the hc14, it's slimmer and has a new battery model. It's also 100euro more than the gs11 / hc14...

- the JVC GR23 & Canon 700/750i look monstrous compared to the Panny/Sony,

In conclusion Panasonic seems to have the best features (24x zoom) for the money, even if the zoom above 18x is hard to handle and the image stabilizer seems to be worse than Sony's.

Tough call: prices (in euro) are 397 for the HC14 and 399 for the GS11.

Confusion at its best

WTF... Only 397 and 399 euro ? The cheapest I can find here is 550 euro for both of them... What a rip off !

[smoki]

http://shop.mediamarkt.de/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?productId=37451&cat...tegoryId=11351

and

http://www.promarkt.de/online/catalog/p_detail.asp?sid=%7B64371D25%2DFCED%2D433F%2DA68...E81E94E07E9%7D

[T ft. D]

http://shop.mediamarkt.de/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?productId=37451&catalogId=5000&lang Id=-3&storeId=5000&categoryId=11351

and

http://www.promarkt.de/online/catalog/p_detail.asp?sid=%7B64371D25%2DFCED%2D433F%2DA68...E81E94E07E9%7D

I'm SO gonna buy my next camera in Germany. It's only 50 kms away.

[smoki]

which is going to be.....?

still don't know what to go for...

@broadway: any chance to see some unzoomed shots of the GS15? Best uncompressed, just zip it and PM me the link if it's too big...or even a small video sample would do!
thanks!

[proxyx99]

As much as I would like to not take sides I have to lean towards Sony. Even though far from perfect Sony offers a combination of features that is no-BS, good quality and resonable price. Others have to follow and lower their prices to make products more appealing.
I'd take Sony 1/4 inch over 1/6th, always. 25x zoom is good only with a tripod (heavy) and who is gonna carry one with a miniDV(???), image stabilization in Sony is excellent. Low light was/is also best on Sony (5lux on HC14). Pana GS11 is also a nice (overall) cam... but I'm sold on Sony.
My take: either 3CCD Pana or Sony
I'd suggest checking epinions.com for user experiences with both cams or their slightly older siblings.

[broadway]

@broadway: any chance to see some unzoomed shots of the GS15? Best uncompressed, just zip it and PM me the link if it's too big...or even a small video sample would do!
thanks!

sorry,

all the videos I have I had to use zoom
the people were up on a stage outside and I couldn't get that close
that is what I use my camcorder for

[smoki]

@broadway: hmm ok, i guess any small sample would do

I saw different versions of the Sony cams:

HC14
HC16
HC18
HC20

On the Sony's website there are only HC14 and HC20 to be seen, does anyone have an idea what's up with the 16 and 18? I'm tending towards the HC16 actually, it's lighter than the HC14 and has a Tessar objective (supposedly bit better than the Sonnar on the HC14).

[dun4cheap]

Well I myself was looking to get a new minDV and use it along with my Panasonic DV101. Times have certainly changed since its release. I ended up going with the Canon Optura 20 for $300. This was definately a steel. It has .5 lux abilities plus nite shot, super nite and so fourth. Sony as far as nite shot I hear is the best. The canon super nite shot slows the shutter down giving a blury picture. However, this camera works well in regular mode in dark shots because of the .5 lux lens. It has a 16x optical also with 16x9 digital mode. I have also purchased a lens doubler and wide angle attachment.

Other than that, I just was not impressed by the options of the new camcorders. I was really looking for tru 16:9 and low lux decent and decent zoom. I settled for the Otpura20 which I can't complain on the price it was new and cost $300. I was also looking at the Optura 30/40 but they were pricey.

[smoki]

damn, i just saw another Panasonic, the NV-GS22, it's got only 10x zoom but looks different than the GS11/15, lighter, brighter LCD...

any comments on this series?

[smoki]

yep! i think i'm going for the GS22, i don't really need a/v in or dv-in for that matter since i have a quite good capture card.

the sonys (hc16/18/20/30) don't offer much more, actually less than the GS22, and cost more as usual.

i think the US model is the PV-GS33, and the UK one is NV-GS22B:

http://www.panasonic.co.uk/camcorders/nvgs22b/index.htm

as a last question, the only camera that could stand in its way is the HC16/18 from Sony. Should i even consider it, or just cash in on the Panasonic tomorrow?

[smoki]

got the NV-GS22...

[proxyx99]

...don't forget to post your (honest) feedback plus some shots maybe...

[smoki]

@proxy: it's hard for me to compare the quality, because it's my first DV camera

I shot a short video outside on a sunny day, the reds came out very "red", almost too much compared to other colors (green grass, blue sky, white buildings, etc...).

I would really like to see some samples of Sony cameras (HC16/20/30/40) and compare notes...i have 2 weeks time to return/exchange the camera if for whatever reason i don't like it.

I use a 19"TFT, when i use Mediaplayer to watch the DV clips in fullscreen they don't look sharp at all, i can see weird color interference even at some points..if i watch from 2-3m away it looks much better. Haven't tried watching on TV yet...

[proxyx99]

TFT is a poor source to judge the video. None of them comes even close to the CRT fidelity and clarity so I'd like to encourage you to hook it up to the decent quality TV set (like Sony). Reason for that is that Sony Trinitron has an unmatched ability to display true (or pretty damn close) skin tone. So try to judge it on a Trinitron tube (also PC monitor). This will give you the idea of what your cam is capable of and compare to your own TV (if other then Sony).
It's too early to say that your cam is a slight disappointment (as per your words). Do more testing, take your DV cassette to the store that sells Sony and get a minute or two on the same tape. If heads are aligned well you may be able to watch both (it is often the case that you won't be able to play back Sony footage on your Pana, beware, that is normal. Only analog cams can play despite distortion, digital will cease playback).

I'm not for Sony just because I like the name. It's my experience that Sony cams are closest to what you would like them to be (in my opinion). They may not have all the latest gimmicks but the essentials are solid (video quality). My DV cam - DCR PC1 (4 year old) is a great performer and I'm very satisfied with it. Some of my friends have Canons or Pana but frankly I'd never switch to another maker before I see a proof that these cams are unequivocally better. Don't take me wrong, I'm not talking about best picture in the world, but just something that you as an owner will be 100% comfortable with. There is no coincidence that Sony is so well received on the marker, they deliver consistently. Even in digital still-cameras Sony is setting standards for others to follow (just read tests and reviews, ironically I own Canon... ).

All I'm saying is look at the product and ask yourself a question, is this what I want to have and feel 100% confident about? If yes, keep it. Otherwise, have an open mind.

[smoki]

i filmed a 7min video yesterday around the house and burned it to DVD/RW. I must say the quality on the TV (an older Panasonic :P ) was much better than on the TFT screen.

Some things i noticed:
- if there is a source of brightness (clouds above while filming trees) and you have them, say 50/50 in the objective, you can barely see the trees...in automode. I couldn't find any whitebalance presets anywhere...

- the digital zoom can be used with no probles up to 20x, on the TV you can barely notice the difference in quality between 10x max optical and 20x digital on top. Camera has 3 options for dig.zoom: off, 20x, 500x

- the reds are not so "in your face" as on the TFT monitor, it's quite balanced on the TV screen.

- the nightmode is useless unless you have a tripod, if you manage to hold the camera still enough the results are amazing....you really think it's daylight. Couldn't find any grainess using the nightmode because it was kind of blurred (shaky hand) but it seems considerably less than using no nightmode.

- indoors can be a pain, video looks grainy in low light, almost gray.

- macromode worked in the store, now i can't figure it out anymore ?!? weird...

How could i make a testvideo using a camera in the store? They are running ok, but have no tapes in them obviously....what's with that head alignment, could i playback a tape recorded with Sony HC16 on the Pana GS22?

thx

[proxyx99]

i
How could i make a testvideo using a camera in the store? They are running ok, but have no tapes in them obviously....what's with that head alignment, could i playback a tape recorded with Sony HC16 on the Pana GS22?

thx

Just ask the staff to allow you to put the tape in one of the display cams and test it (make a short movie, inside or outside whatever is permissible). Playback is not guaranteed as miniDV's are digital and distortion from misaligned head will cause the cam to switch to the blue screen (no signal). Even going from cam to cam of the same brand/model may give you a headache (although, normally, it should be OK). First, try to play your tape on Sony and if OK try to record on it. Take it home and watch it on your TV/Pana.

[greenpig]

I have been looking for my first DigiCam too and I am also considering the Panasonic GS15B.

The GS22 and GS33 are slightly different models - main difference is that the GS33 has DV-in.

I have found the following prices in the uk ...
NV-GS11B - £260
NV-GS15B - £299
NV-GS22B - £315
NV-GS33B - £318
NV-GS55B - £348
(All prices are after VAT + p&p)

I cannot decide between the GS15B and the GS33B. The 15B has x24 zoom but from smoki's comment it probably isnt much good over x18. Does this mean that the 33B is ok up to x10 or does it suffer at it's top end too ?
Also, the power consumption of the 22B/33B is lower but the battery options are different giving less time anyway.
The 15B specs say minimum illumination is 2LUX and the 22/33 is 1LUX - what does this mean - can the 22/33 work in half the light that the 15 will work in ?
http://www.panasonic.co.uk/camcorders/nvgs15b/index.htm
http://www.panasonic.co.uk/camcorders/nvgs22b/index.htm
http://www.panasonic.co.uk/camcorders/nvgs33b/index.htm

I dont need a memory card because I have a 3Mpixel stills camera.
I definately dont need digital zoom - pointless on a movie and stills camera in my opinion.
I probably dont need DV-in but for the price difference between the 22 and 33 I might as well have it .
None of them come with a DV/Firewire cable - are these standard anyway, if so what sort of price (£) ?
No mention of DV transfer to a PC in the manuals (downloaded the 08/11/15 and the 22/33 manual from panasonic.co.uk).

I had previously also considered the JVC D73 but could not find any reviews, and after reading this thread, I will now check the spec on the Sony models.
I also considered looking at the Canon 700,700i,730i & 750i and I have found a number of reviews. Unfortunatelly, they all complain about the motor noise being picked up by the internal microphone so sorry Canon, you're off my list for the moment.


Since I'm completely new to this are there any recomended brands of MiniDV tapes - or brands to avoid ?

[smoki]

i bought the Sony DCR-HC16 after using the Panasonic NV-GS22 for almost a week. I will post shortly a small review, with some photos and maybe small clips.

some fast answers for greenpig:

- 24x zoom is nice, but you need a steady hand/tripod at anything above 16-18x even with image stabilization ON.
- the 10x on the GS22/33/55 series is quite good, you can use even 10x digital zoom on top of that, it doesn't look that bad. the max 500x zoom you can forget about...
- the display (LCD) on the GS22/33/55 has a better quality, and the menu structure seems neater than on the GS11/15.
- i can definately say the GS22 sucked in lowlight...video was grainy, and the nightmode was useless since u needed a tripod again. The nightmode on the Sony HC16 is amazing (uses infrared light) and it doesn't stutter or ghost at all...

From what u listed above, i would go for the GS33, test it for couple of days and return it if you don't like it. Nothing can substitute your personal tests

[Sillyname]

Panasonic is starting to sway me. The GS400 is about as much perfection a designer can fit into such a small place. You guys read about this one yet. It's MSRP is $1500 right out of the gate but that'll fall. It premiered at the beginning of this month. Very nice. Only thing it's missing HDV and XLR... It's got audio level control. Its got a ring that can be selected between zoom, focus, exposure and shutter!!! And 4MP stills and the ability to take 1MP stills while you record video!!! Which means, deep down inside, it's video circuitry handles 1Megapixel video at 29.97fps(HD quality camera, just not the ability to record it!!!)Probably could once portable HDV decks come out. SONY's making their HDV, so an HDV walkman can't be far behind.