Retailers Hate Us

[kirpen]

I was over at hardocp and saw a link to this disturbing story.
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/news/archive/2004/07/05/national1332EDT0564.DTL

07-05) 16:36 PDT MINNEAPOLIS (AP) --

So much for the customer always being right.

Some retailers are deciding that the customer can be very, very wrong -- as in unprofitable. And some, including Best Buy Co. Inc., are discriminating between profitable customers and shoppers they lose money on.

Like a customer who ties up a salesworker but never buys anything, or who buys only during big sales. Or one who files for a rebate, then returns the item.

"That would be directly equivalent to somebody going to an ATM and getting money out without putting any in," Brad Anderson, Best Buy's chief executive, said in a recent interview. "Those customers, they're smart, and they're costing us money."

Anderson said Best Buy was tightening its rebate policies in the case of customers who abuse the privilege, but declined to say what else his company was doing to discourage its most costly customers.

"What we're trying to do is not eliminate those customers, but just diminish the number of offers we make to them," Anderson said.

Larry Selden calls them "demon customers."

Selden, a consultant who works for Best Buy, co-wrote "Angel Customers & Demon Customers." In his book, he said that while retailers "probably can't hire a bouncer to stand at the door and identify the value destroyer," they're not powerless.

Selden, a business professor emeritus at Columbia University, said an investment firm found that one customer with a portfolio of $500,000 was tying up three financial advisers almost full-time with requests for help and information. "Eventually, reluctantly, and very politely, in this one case the company asked him to go elsewhere," Selden said.

Selden worked as a consultant for Royal Bank of Canada, which at one time traced checks faster for its most profitable customers, while other customers waited up to five days, he wrote. While that's a bit out of date, the bank now has other ways of prioritizing customers.

Laura Gainey, vice president of client segment strategies, said the bank's phone system sends certain customers to the front of the line, where they get the most experienced customer service representatives, depending on criteria that includes their account size.

"I don't really believe that any customer at Royal Bank is a demon customer," she said, "but there's no doubt that there are different ways of approaching different customers, which will allow us to better serve their needs, and allow us to serve the bank and our shareholder's needs."

Sometimes it's the retailer's fault that a customer is unprofitable, Selden said. He cited an upscale retailer in New York that lost sales because its changing rooms were dirty and in bad repair. Women who had probably taken up a salesperson's time were declining to change in those rooms, and declining to buy, he said.

"Then there are those customers that are just evil customers ... fundamentally they're out to cheat us," Selden said in a telephone interview. "It's not a large number of customers, but they can have a material impact on a business."

Once in a while, stores need to "fire" their worst customers, Selden said. Filene's banned two sisters from all 21 of its stores last year after the clothing chain's corporate parent decided they had returned too many items and complained too often about service.

The sisters claimed they had been loyal customers for years.

Best Buy executive vice president Philip Schoonover said the idea of "firing" some customers is one place where Best Buy disagrees with Selden. The company will try to find ways to make money-losing customers profitable, he said.

Retail consultant Karl Bjornson of Kurt Salmon Associates said the idea of discouraging bad customers can work if a company is careful about it. He said it generally works better to, say, offer fewer sales rather than discouraging individual customers who shop aggressively on price.

Every store has customers it doesn't like, he said.

"The question is, how public do you go with it, and how big a deal do you make out of it? There are ways of discouraging people from shopping in your store without point-blank telling them you don't want them in your store."

Best Buy customer Steve McCuskey pondered the company's efforts with a set of computer speakers in his hand. McCuskey, an industrial chemical salesman, said he shares Best Buy's frustration with "extreme price shoppers" who are so low-cost oriented that it's tough to make money off of them. He said he recently paid extra to buy a better portable compact disc player for his son after the first one lasted just four months.

"I'm definitely looking for the best price, but I'm also tired of cheap stuff that's going to break right away," he said."

How do you return an item you sent in for rebate? How often do you even get the rebate as promised.

[disturbed1]

"Then there are those customers that are just evil customers ... fundamentally they're out to cheat us," Selden said in a telephone interview. "It's not a large number of customers, but they can have a material impact on a business."

Then there are those businesses that are just evil, fundamentally they're out to cheat us.

It's not a large number of businesses, but they can have a material impact on a customer

Seems like they switched business and customer around in the above quote

[lenti_75]

who cares...i almost never buy from them, unless the on-line price is close
:P

[Suntan]

The last time I bought anything from Best Buy it was a 160 gig 7200rpm 8mb cache WD HD for $99 when the same was going for $150 on Newegg. I knew it was one of those sales designed to get people into the store. They offered it, promoted it in their weekly, and yet I am the one who is evil because I only bought what was a good deal?

At the same time, when I am in BB I overhear everyone of their highschool employees flat out lieing to un-informed customers to get them to buy expensive and worthless maintanence plans, but I am the evil one.

-Suntan

[DVD_Ripper]

This was not a high tech return but the other day I returned a pair of leather sandals (fathers day present)...

Well it denoted $49.95 less 15% = 42.46 or something like that on the receipt...

The dude took 'em back, I signed not looking at the cc receipt and I noticed it was at 49.95 credit (no tax on clothing type items in PA) ....

Now when he punched in 49.95 credit plus my receipt ID it should have flagged him regarding the amount. That and the fact it denoted it on the receipt.

Fact is their computers have to get better at tracking these items against receipts, etc.

[stiltman]

I'm an evil customer

I made around 20K last year by buying and returning stuff with rebates...joking

[DVD_Ripper]

I'm an evil customer

I made around 20K last year by buying and returning stuff with rebates...joking

Dude... at a point it becomes larceny does it not?

[CloudBurst]

Damn, I bought my last hard drive on a sale they were running, I guess that makes me a son of satan, evil, and all that is corrupt consumer. I guess I should have forwent buying the hard drive until the sale was over (then bought it) and, instead, bought the items that they increased the price on by 15% so I could line thier pockets and be a good *cough* baaaaa *cough* consumer.

[lordsmurf]

Most Best Buy employees are dumb as shit anyway. They spend more time with "duh" and drool coming out than actually helping people.

What do they expect with low prices? Nobody to buy?

[hudsonf]

I don't know how all you evil buyers can sleep at night. To think a person could buy something on sale and only pay the sale price makes me mad. All of you should go back to Best Buy and give them the difference.

[ViRaL1]

I've worked in retail and I believe that there are not necessarily 'GOOD' and 'EVIL' customers; but that some customers are profitable and some customers are not. What separates a good business from a bad one as well as what separates a good salesman and a bad one is learning how to tell the difference. Not every customer is going to buy. Some come with the intent to buy and are disuaded possibly by price, customer service or product quality. One thing I've learned is that you should never judge a book by it's cover. Some people will even go sa far as to dress down and try to look poor so as to seem less eager to spend money when the reality is that not only can they afford it, but they're so easily talked up to a better product, faking poor is their only defense. Some customers look like they're loaded and end up being a total waste of time. Some use a salesperson as their own personal tutor with no intent of purchasing anything. Businesses have and always will find ways to discriminate whom they give their time to; they just try to make it less obvious because it's easy to get sued if you're not careful HOW you choose to discriminate. As far as returning products you got a rebate for, I'd equate it with stealing. Of course, this is part of the reason it takes so long to GET rebates. Businesses are trying to make sure that they're keeping the money you paid before they send you back part of it (that and they'd like to earn as much interest as possible on it before you get it back). I'll admit I'm a low price / rebate shopper myself, and I'll even go as far as to take full advantage of a store's price match guarantee if it gets me the lowest possible price. Those who DON'T shop around will more than make up the company's money saved by my hard work and reasearch (and sometimes a lot of driving). Retailers count on two things (well 3 if you count believing that most of their salespeople know the difference between an Athlon XP and Windows XP)...first being that low price items will get you in the store so they can talk you into buying other, higher margin items and last being that you'll sign up for an extended warranty (this is their highest margin in most cases barring the snack machine).

P.S. - I think 20k would be WELL into GRAND larceny and / or fraud, although I doubt he was being serious.

[gshelley61]

I guess I'm a bad customer, too. I price shop and inform myself online, then buy at B&M stores like Best Buy only if the price is close, or they have a good rebate, or they have an open box item for cheap, or they have something I need to get right away.

Otherwise, I shop eBay for bargains and buy from online retailers often... sometimes just to save, dare I say it, sales tax!

[Supreme2k]

How is a "rebate thief" legit?

I used to work in retail, and we wouldn't take returns if the UPC (proof of purchase) was missing. It was in our Return Policy. Plus, I'd tell them that we couldn't scan the item in to accept it, or we couldn't tell it was from our store without it

Also, I think that's why some rebates require the original reciept. Then you can't take it back (in theory).

[stiltman]

How is a "rebate thief" legit?

I used to work in retail, and we wouldn't take returns if the UPC (proof of purchase) was missing. It was in our Return Policy. Plus, I'd tell them that we couldn't scan the item in to accept it, or we couldn't tell it was from our store without it

Also, I think that's why some rebates require the original reciept. Then you can't take it back (in theory).

BB and CC just scan your receipt now...don't even need to give them your creditcard eitherjoking 8)

[The village idiot]

How could you return an item that you sent in a rebate? Almost all of the rebates require the UPC to be cut/torn from the box. On the few times I have needed to return something to BB, they always check for the UPC on the box. No UPC - No return! Simple and direct.

BTW BB cash registers run on win2000

[The village idiot]

How is a "rebate thief" legit?

I used to work in retail, and we wouldn't take returns if the UPC (proof of purchase) was missing. It was in our Return Policy. Plus, I'd tell them that we couldn't scan the item in to accept it, or we couldn't tell it was from our store without it

Also, I think that's why some rebates require the original reciept. Then you can't take it back (in theory).

Damn, beat me to it.

[jaxxboss]

I've worked in retail and I believe that there are not necessarily 'GOOD' and 'EVIL' customers; but that some customers are profitable and some customers are not. What separates a good business from a bad one as well as what separates a good salesman and a bad one is learning how to tell the difference. Not every customer is going to buy. Some come with the intent to buy and are disuaded possibly by price, customer service or product quality. One thing I've learned is that you should never judge a book by it's cover. Some people will even go sa far as to dress down and try to look poor so as to seem less eager to spend money when the reality is that not only can they afford it, but they're so easily talked up to a better product, faking poor is their only defense. Some customers look like they're loaded and end up being a total waste of time. Some use a salesperson as their own personal tutor with no intent of purchasing anything. Businesses have and always will find ways to discriminate whom they give their time to; they just try to make it less obvious because it's easy to get sued if you're not careful HOW you choose to discriminate. As far as returning products you got a rebate for, I'd equate it with stealing. Of course, this is part of the reason it takes so long to GET rebates. Businesses are trying to make sure that they're keeping the money you paid before they send you back part of it (that and they'd like to earn as much interest as possible on it before you get it back). I'll admit I'm a low price / rebate shopper myself, and I'll even go as far as to take full advantage of a store's price match guarantee if it gets me the lowest possible price. Those who DON'T shop around will more than make up the company's money saved by my hard work and reasearch (and sometimes a lot of driving). Retailers count on two things (well 3 if you count believing that most of their salespeople know the difference between an Athlon XP and Windows XP)...first being that low price items will get you in the store so they can talk you into buying other, higher margin items and last being that you'll sign up for an extended warranty (this is their highest margin in most cases barring the snack machine).

P.S. - I think 20k would be WELL into GRAND larceny and / or fraud, although I doubt he was being serious.

This is what I read:
I've worked in retail and blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah.

[ViRaL1]

Not sure about CC, but I know BB prints you out separate copies of the receipt for rebates with all the information on them. Also, some rebates will take a copy of the UPC (usually in situations where there are multiple rebates on one product). It's always nice when one chain has the best price and another has the best rebate, then you pricematch and get the best of both worlds. Sometimes, if you're lucky BB or CC will have a product on sale after rebate and the other will end up matching the after rebate price in-store and just not offering a rebate. Then you just buy it where you can get the rebate (i.e. $100 - $50MIR) and have them price match ($50 - no rebate) and Voila...for whatever tax is in your area, you got a $100 item. One thing I've found at BB and CUSA is that they'll do anything they can not to price match before the sale ('They might be cheaper at first but we have rebates') and they'll argue with you. I usually just make my purchase and go over to customer service with the competing ad, already having my receipt and my rebate forms...they never argue.

This is what I read:
I've worked in retail and blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah.

Thanks for the input.

[JohnnyCNote]

Check out BestBuySux. I'm not the least bit surprised that a Best Buy consultant would write such a book as Angel Customers & Demon Customers. After my last experience with them several years ago, I have never returned and have no plans to ever go back....

[sssax2003]

I used to go to Best Buy to buy CD-R's, and other media... but ever since "Fry's Electronics" opened up.. I give my entire business to Frys! Like this week they had a 160GB Maxtor 8mb hard drive for $69.99 !!! and also a 250GB for $129.99...Nothing but Frys for me~~ 8)

[JohnnyCNote]

This is a classic Best Buy customer story:

Customer Comments
June 2004

The Sunday paper had a special for an e-Machine at Best Buy, with monitor and printer, for $399 after rebate. That fit my budget, so I ran over to buy it. I figured, as much as they suck, how could they mess up a simple purchase?

I got there & they tried the old "bait and switch", telling me they were sold out of the sale items and I needed to consider a more expensive model. I guess the idiot thought I couldn't read: they had 3 on the shelf, and probably more in the back storage room. I pointed it out, and he said, "No, that's a different computer that what the box says." ??? I commented they still looked factory sealed. "Yes." I asked him if it was Best Buy's policy to put the wrong items in the wrong boxes. "No." I asked him if I could buy whatever is in those boxes at the same price. "No." I asked him if we could open the boxes to double-check. "No." I said, if they've never been opened, how can you be sure it's the wrong item in that box? "Uhhh...."

So he changed his story. "My boss told me I'm not allowed to sell those". Oh really - can we call your boss over here? "No". So I went to get the boss, who pulled the boxes down and went to find the monitor & printer that went with it. Then the idiot asked me if I wanted the 3 year rip-off warranty for $150. No thanks. "Are you sure? The mother boards in these things go bad after a year". Are you telling me Best Buy makes a practice of selling inferior products? "No." I have a 3-year old e-machine, and the motherboard is still fine. "No you don't". If I would have purchased the more expensive HP would you offer me the warranty on that also? "Yes." Do the mother boards on them go bad after a year also? "Yes." Then what's the point of spending double? "Uhhh..."

So he changed his story again. "Because the mother boards go bad so frequently, we're not allowed to sell them without the warranty." So you refuse to sell me this item? "Uhhh...."

So I pulled out my credit card, said charge it, and I need to be on my way. He refused. So I called the store manager. He refused also. I walked out, and gave my money instead to a locally-owned computer store who helped me build a much superior computer for nearly half the price. I also filed acomplaint with the State Attorney General's Office.

[BJ_M]

much superior computer for nearly half the price

HALF OF $399 ??? including monitor and printer ?

i smell a story here and it smells fishy .....

[ZAPPER]

What was this all about? Oh yes now I rember. Service. You pay for the service that you get. If you want your ass kissed when you shop spend a little cash. If you want the 50 pack of whatever is on sale for half price and a rebate for the other half in six months don't expect the manager to roll out the red carpet and give you free drinks. Good sales service to me is a polite smile and a point in the direction of what I am looking for. I can make my own choices. When you want technical answers asking a sales person in most cases is stupid on your part. First they are there to sell you things. That means to take as much of your money as they can. Second keep in mind that they are working in a retail store for close to minimum wages and are not engineers and don't always know what they are talking about. Just look at them. Do they even look smarter than you? Do they look like a used car salesman? I admit that sometimes I listen to a sales pitch. But usually over the shoulder of another stooge. And if I do ask for help or information I tell the sales person "Hey I am just looking right now but whats the differnce between this and that" and I think that I get a more concise less drawnout and more truthful answer. If they think that I ain't going to buy I think that they don't waste the bullshit on me and give me abrupt straight answers like I want.
If a store is going to provide sales help it is included in the price of the product. If a store feels that it is loosing money by wasting sales staff time with customers then they should fire the sales staff and go to the warehouse style store. Lower prices and higer volume. Less plush surroundings and spend less on advertising. Cut out the rebates and sale events and save on their overhead too. Make a reputation for being the lowest price in town and they will come!

[vitualis]

And some, including Best Buy Co. Inc., are discriminating between profitable customers and shoppers they lose money on.

There is something seriously wrong with the business mentality over there...

If you going to set up a system where you have rebates and "no questions asked" returns, then you have to live with the possibility of some customers abusing the system. However, it's your own fault for setting up the system in the first place.

If you don't want people abusing the rebate system, then don't offer rebates.

If you don't want people abusing the returns process, then don't offer "no questions asked" returns.

These companies get a lot of extra business by offering these services in addition to what is required by law (in terms of returns) so they are hardly in a position to complain when it gets abused.

I don't know about the US, but in Australia, discriminating between customers simply on "profitability" is against our Trade Practices Act.

Regards.

[Greg12]

I always shop on rebates and sales. I go into the store (i know the layouts of the local electronic's stores) take the item and then go right to the checkout.

I'm suprised this article failed to mention restocking fees

When I was trying to find a video card, i had to pay 30 dollars in restocking fees for trying to seperate model video cards.

[JohnnyCNote]

much superior computer for nearly half the price

HALF OF $399 ??? including monitor and printer ?

i smell a story here and it smells fishy .....

Before jumping to conclusions, consider that maybe he means half of what the computer would have cost before rebates, etc. Also, he didn't metion that he paid "half the price" for all three components. I provided a link - check out the many other submissions before dismissing them out of hand....

[JohnnyCNote]

Why "waste time" being helpful to a customer who may only purchase something with a rebate, or maybe nothing at all? The answer is REPEAT BUSINESS. That is how I consistently sold $40k/week at the old Computer City. Obviously, there were some customers who were not worth the time, but they were vastly outnumbered by those who not only eventually made large purchases, but who also sent their friends to ask for me.

Unfortunately, stores like Best Buy have forgotten this concept and instead approach each one with the attitude of "this is our one and only chance to get what we can from this guy, so we gotta make sure to get absolutely everything we can". They allow themselves to believe that there are "plenty more where they came from", or "where else can they go?", and don't worry when yet another customer finally chooses not to accept their poor service and move on....

[ZAPPER]

Hey, where is the guy that farts on these things?

[Supreme2k]

This is what I read:
I've worked in retail and blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah.

This is what I read:

I farted

:P

[presto]

I shop at Best Buy. The prices are good and there are often open box deals and rebates that are great deals.

When a rebate is offered they print out all the forms you need and bring it to your attention. Accept for two recent exceptions I always get my rebate checks (I got the same postcard others got saying there was a problem with my Fujji rebate, I called the 800 number and they straightened it out in less than a minute. I just got a postcard about a problem with my Honeymooners rebate, I'll call tomorow).

They are very generous with returns. The article that started this thread was more about Best Buy having to be stricter because of people abusing the return policy. Not about Best Buy "hateing" anyone. Yes the term Demons is inflamatory but that was used by a consultant. They could have used Robins and Sparows instead of Angels and Devils but it wouldn't have been as easy to follow.

The employees are just like emplyees at most any store. They are usually helpful but not always. They sometimes know what they are talking about and sometimes don't. Some people in general tend to give you an answer to any question you ask wether they know anything about it or not. Others are more willing to say "I have no idea".

I've never had anyone try to bait and switch me. I'm sure it happens but the cast of characters in the story above sound like they came out of bad bad movie. They wouldn't be in business very long.

When I make a purchase they always offer the "insurance". I say no, and they never say another word about it. Well, wait a a minute, I think once one of them said "you sure?" but I managed to stand firm.

That's my experience anyway.