Hauppauge WinTV PVR 250 Audio Sync Problems....

[alstatr]

Here is what I am trying to do.

I recently bought a WinTV PVR 250 to improve my cable TV captures because my ATI AIW 9700 Pro sadly has poor shielding and there is too much interference on my captures. Also using my ATI to capture old VHS tapes was a no go because of the poor shielding as well. Too bad I realized the shielding was bad after the return policy was up. But the ATI is awesome for games and I'm fine with buying other equipment to capture my VHS tapes and TV.

I can capture TV flawlessly. (with the Hauppauge card) The quality is fantastic. So after being extermely pleased with TV captures I tried to capture a VHS tape. Its a tape I made alittle over two years ago from a DV. I captured the tape at MPEG2 12 mbps (alittle overkill maybe but I wanna make sure its the best it can be from a VHS tape) and the picture quality was awesome. But the audio gets more and more out of sync as the video progresses. I am using VCR > composite video in of Hauppauge 250 and audio in on the card as well. I tried using my line on my onboard sound but the problem was still there. I am going to try using coax out on the vcr > coax in on the Hauppauge card.

I guess my question is does anyone know how to fix this? I tried using virtualdub to capture and it can't intialize the capture device, neither can virtualvcr. The one wierd thing is that when i play the file in Vegas Video 4 in the preview window the audio is in sync but when I output to MPEG2 it is out again. I know that the Hauppauge uses MP2 audio could this have an effect on the sync of the audio? If I can't get this resolved I think I will return the card.

Thanks guys!!

alstatr

[FulciLives]

Sounds like it could be getting out of sync due to frame drops.

I've read a few things about the capture card you have and many people report such audio sync issues with VHS sources.

Seems the best (and perhaps only solution) is to get a TBC device such as the DataVideo TBC-1000

Here is a very nice website you should check out:

http://www.shspvr.com/

That website is dedicated to the Hauppauge WinTV-PVR capture cards and as such includes all kinds of info like tips and tweaks for getting the most of your captures.

GOOD LUCK !!!

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

*** EDIT ***
You do realize that 8000kbps is about as high as you can go for the video bitrate and still be within the DVD MPEG-2 spec.

However I do know of a few people that do 15000kbps captures because they then later re-encode using TMPGEnc or Cinema Craft Encoder. This way they can apply filters to clean up the video and do a true multi-pass VBR encode. It is this software re-encode where they lower the video bitrate as per the DVD MPEG-2 spec.

[alstatr]

FulciLives,

I tried capturing a through the coax out on the VCR to the coax in on my Hauppauge 250. It worked great until I noticed more static lines on the screen. And then my computer started to drop frames. I know its not my computer. What I really don't understand is why people can capture a VHS tape without using a TBC. I guess if its the card I bought I will probably return it even though I love the quality it captures for TV. I'll try going the website you mentioned. Is there any way for me capture VHS without getting a TBC? The cost is alittle too high for me. Stupid college and its high costs....

Oh and about me capturing at 12 mbps, I do it so I can get the best quality and do some filtering if needed. I don't really care about re-encoding.

Thanks guys!!

alstatr

[FulciLives]

FulciLives,

I tried capturing a through the coax out on the VCR to the coax in on my Hauppauge 250. It worked great until I noticed more static lines on the screen. And then my computer started to drop frames. I know its not my computer. What I really don't understand is why people can capture a VHS tape without using a TBC. I guess if its the card I bought I will probably return it even though I love the quality it captures for TV. I'll try going the website you mentioned. Is there any way for me capture VHS without getting a TBC? The cost is alittle too high for me. Stupid college and its high costs....

The guy that puts together that website I posted in my other thread has said many times that yes the Hauppauge WinTV-PVR cards do great captures BUT they need a really high quality source else they drop frames. He has stated before that a TBC is really needed in most instances to capture from VHS with these cards.

Oh and about me capturing at 12 mbps, I do it so I can get the best quality and do some filtering if needed. I don't really care about re-encoding.

OK well that doesn't make any sense ... do you realize that?

If you are going to apply filters then that can only be done by re-encoding.

Also 12 mbps is higher than what the DVD format is capable of ... the max bitrate of a DVD (video+audio bitrate combined) cannot exceed approximately 9.8 mbps

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[alstatr]

I guess I didn't make myself clear. I was under the impression that the higher the bitrate of the file the better the quality. I edit the files and apply filters if needed before I re-encode them to fit on a DVD. I think that bitrate is about 5500 - 6500 kbps. I went to that site and I am using one of the tool everyone there suggests and if that fixes it cool but if it doesn't and since a TBC is kinda out of my league what should I do?

If I were to return the card would buying a ADVC-100 and using that to capture DV from my VHS tapes eliminate the audio sync problem? (I guess I could go back to using my ATI AIW to capture TV shows)

[FulciLives]

I guess I didn't make myself clear. I was under the impression that the higher the bitrate of the file the better the quality. I edit the files and apply filters if needed before I re-encode them to fit on a DVD. I think that bitrate is about 5500 - 6500 kbps. I went to that site and I am using one of the tool everyone there suggests and if that fixes it cool but if it doesn't and since a TBC is kinda out of my league what should I do?

If I were to return the card would buying a ADVC-100 and using that to capture DV from my VHS tapes eliminate the audio sync problem? (I guess I could go back to using my ATI AIW to capture TV shows)

Well I don't have a Canopus ADVC-100 but let me tell you this ... I sure wish I did hehehe

I've done a lot of reading here about them and it sure sounds like a fantasic piece of equipment. They do maintain A/V sync very well even if you get a few drop outs here and there. However if the tape is really really bad then you will still need a TBC but but my understanding is that it requires a very bad long drop out or many drop outs in a row to really throw off the sync with the Canopus ADVC-100

So ... it's up to you.

Bear in mind that even if you can return and get a refund on your WinTV PVR-250 that a Canopus ADVC-100 is a good $100 more but then again that is cheaper overall than buying a TBC for $300 on-top of what you already paid for the WinTV PVR-250

My guess is that you really will not need a TBC for most VHS sources using the Canopus ADVC-100 but bear it mind you may want to get one eventually especially for "stubbern" tapes.

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[SHS]

alstatr it not good idea to re-encode PVR 250/350 files that can case audio sync problem it best to pick a bitrate under 9.8 VBR that MAX for DVD spec for Home DVD Player also even if gose over the DVD size 4.7GB there away DVD Shrink you can use after Authoring to folder or harddrive.
Note: There are only two MPEG Editor that work well Womble MPEG2VCR and VideoReDo.
Audio sync problem are use cuase by number thing form VCR it self the Tape or Bad patch cable or new low cost patch cable.
If there was same bad frame on tape then the PVR 250 drop them for reson just becuase you can't see them dosen't mean there not there.
Well there away this work around for same tape problem with audio sync problem, Same poeple are using Canopus ADVC-100 + PVR 250 that way they can REALtime MPGE2 encoder without long wait of Soft re-encode but there using two system.
Another way which work for me by using REALmagic Xcard loopping S/Video back into PVR 250.

[alstatr]

If I were to buy better composite video cables and audio cables would that help? And what kind should I buy?

[Barnabas]

alstatr,

I own that same card, and it does a nice job from a decent video source, but video tapes can cause some frame drops. Boost the sharpness to 7 for better looking captures.

The first thing you need to do is the check the captured video for frame drops. Download PVAStrumento, the 2.0.30 version and have it check your caputured file for frame drops. Select "scan" and wait until it finishes.

http://members.aon.at/cinch/pvas2030.zip

If you dropped frames at anything other than the very start or end of the capture, then you are dropping some video frames due to a poor source. If that's the case, a TBC or time base corrector will help. A decent TBC will cost you about $179.00 The other option is to use VideoReDo to edit the captured files with the dropped frames. VideoReDo can deal with droppped frames, so that the edited file wil still be in sync.

Dan, the author gives GREAT support for this fine video editor. The only thing missing from this great editor is MPEG-1 editing.

http://www.drdsystems.com/VideoReDo/index.html

If your captured file does not show frame drops other than at the very start or end of the capture, try making up some DVD capture profiles using the "program" setting, rather than the default "DVD" setting. I would use VideoReDo for the editor in any event, some editors can knock the sync out on a long file when VideoReDo won't.

[SHS]

I agree it dose take soild video source in order get good cap II my have run problem even my DishNetwork Box depent on the channel I recorder from.

[alstatr]

I tried that program to see if it dropped any frames and it says it didn't. I captured using the program stream and still no luck. I put my file into videoredo and it made it worse. So unless anyone else has any more suggestions I'm sending the card back.

PS don't order from Compuplus.com they only allow you to choose 2 day air shipping but it got here in 5 days. It basically cost me $15 to get the same as 3 day business.

alstatr

[Barnabas]

alstatr,

Try a different tape and check the results. Unless you have some MAJOR problems with that tape, VideoReDo should NOT make it worse. Check the file size before and after VideoReDo. It should be shorter once edited, but if longer, you have some problems with that tape that only capping with a TBC will help.

Since your TV captures work fine, it points to a bad tape. Sending the card back will only get you more of the same with what ever new card you get. I do video conversions to DVD all the time, and can tell you that there are problem tapes that will give ANY card fits. Only a TBC will help those. It will also clean up the picture.

Capping from video tape has it's own set of problems. The quality of the playback deck is also a BIG factor.

[alstatr]

I am going to send the card back to get a refund. I tried using other tapes and even professional movies and they still gave me trouble. I tried using a different VCR and had no luck. I tried using a tape that is only 4 months old and that even dropped frames and went out of sync. When I tired using different tapes some dropped frames and some didn't. When i put the movie into video redo what do i do? I don't really understand what i am supposed to do so maybe i am just doing it wrong.

Whats a good VCR to use for capturing?

thanks

alstatr

[Barnabas]

You need to keep your card, and try to see what's is causing the frame drops. Since your TV caps are fine, this points to your tape/vcr. Getting a different card is not going to solve your problem, since it's likely due to your VCR, tapes, and settings.

JVC makes some nice VCR's that will correct the video. The s9911u has digital noise reduction, TBC, and even a stabilizer. It's pretty cheap as these things go. I picked mine up for only $279.

You cannot be impatiet when working with this stuff. If you are the impatient sort, get yourself a Panasonic DVD recorder. You will lose lots of editing options, and have to buy more costly media than you can usually use with a normal DVD burner, but they have a TBC built in and you won't end up with sync issues.

There are TONS of things that can cause sync problems, the editor, the authoring software, the drivers, the computer HD etc.

Read the helpfile on VideoReDo for how to use it. It's VERY simple.

[SHS]

why didn't you take look at Womble MPEG2VCR.
What are you using that showing that it out sycn
WMP, WinDVD, PowerDVD etc, etc?.

[alstatr]

In WMP, Power DVD the audio is out of sync. I tried womble vcr and it didn't do anything either. I am going to borrow a friends digital camcorder and try a pass through. If that doesn't work I am going to borrow another friends dazzle video converter. (I am not sure if the dazzle is a 80 or a 150) I have a AIW 9700 Pro. I have tried to capture a VHS tape before and ran into macrovision (the hacks don't work). The reason I bought the Hauppauge card for better TV quality because of interference and poor shielding on the card. I am going to try using a different capture program while using the ATI AIW. Any suggestions? When I used MMC 9.0 to capture a VHS tape before the sound was too loud and distorted even when I used the CD IN, Line IN, and the coax in on the AIW.

Thanks for all your help guys.

I am returning the Hauppauge card for a refund. I can't justify keeping it for only great TV captures. Unless I can somehow solve this problem.

alstatr

[SHS]

alstatr what about playing it back in WinTV2000? being WinTV2000 only use Custom InterVideo MPEG2 Decoder that come with card.
Which ver 4 or 5 PowerDVD.
What PVR 250 driver ver?.

[alstatr]

Power DVD 5, all hauppauge drivers are up to date. Tried playing it back and it was still out of sync. This time I captured a brand new VHS tape and no luck.

[Barnabas]

alstatr,

Reading all of your posts again on the subject, I have to ask this. Are you complaining about the sync of the reencoded file only? If so, there is NO GOOD reason to reencode the Hauppauge 250 files. The whole point of the Hauppauge PVR is to be able to do REAL-TIME mpeg encoding in hardware. It is stupid to reencode 250 captured files as you are lowering the quality. The Hauppage does filtering in real-time as well, and you can download a pre-filter tweak from the SHS website to tweak it more. You can easily setup the correct bitrate in the Hauppauge for the correct length of what you are capturing so there is NO need to reencode.

I own 3 capture cards here, an All In Wonder, The PVR-250, and a Hauppauge AVI card. If you are going to insist on reencoding your captures, you only need a cheap AVI capture card. You can use virtual dub with those, and can use the "drop frames" feature to keep things in sync. You WILL need a big hard drive, at least 50 gigs to capture an AVI file. You can then reencode the AVI file and apply filtering. The Hauppauge PVR-250 is designed to do the above in real-time, so NO need to reencode.

[masterpug]

well folks, lots of great replies, but doesn't directly address the underlying problem...why "movie size"/long captures using hauppauge wintv cards (i have the usb pvr2 box) get out of sync audio but not until way into the file AND it only shows up after you try to edit the mpg2 file! using mpegvcr (which does not re-encode) to simply cut off the end,etc produces out of sync audio even when the original capture if perfect audio sync. go figure how that could happen, but it's a hardware issue with hauppauge and has nothing to do with your system or source. i know this because i get the sync issue with a smokin' new video editing machine, capturing from an svhs jvc deck with regular and svhs brand new tapes, through highest quality monster s-video cable! perfect image transfer (can't tell the difference from source) and strumento analyzes as "0" dropped frames. still, audio sync problem when re-encode or just using mpeg video wizard, videoredo, mpegvcr to cut/trim without full re-encode. wish someone had answers for this nagging problem...

[masterpug]

oh yes, also a very important point. if you author the original source without touching it (for instance getting a 6gig "video_ts" folder) then just use dvd shrink or nero recode,etc to "fit to disk", the audio still gets out of sync in same fashion...test it out for yourself, weird. must happen during demux/remux of the elementary streams. these large hauppauge capture files are like little time bombs that if you touch them or do anything other than play them natively, they'll mess up the audio sync (is this a "macrovision-like" protection scheme or something??) need feedback/answers from hauppauge, but no help there so far on this issue.

[Barnabas]

masterpug,

I have made 3 hour captures with my Hauppauge PVR-250, edited them with VideoReDo. Not 1 dropped frame, and in PERFECT sync from start to finish! MPEGVCR would knock that same file WAY out of sync.

I capture from a S-VHS JVC S9911u deck, as well as from a GoVideo VHS deck, and also from Laserdisc player. My Hauppage PVR-250 captures all of these in PERFECT sync. There is NO hardware issue involved.

[masterpug]

just noticed my "full function" trial of videoredo was actually capped at 30min of video, so i'll order the product and hope that it works like you mentioned! well worth the money if so, and thanks for the reply!

[Barnabas]

masterpug,

Register for the trail version and Dan will send you a 30 day license.

http://www.drdsystems.com/VideoReDo/download.htm

I liked it so well, I bought it before the free trial was up.

[Barnabas]

btw,

Files edited in TMPGEnc DVD Author stay in sync too unless there are actually dropped frames involved. While some like mpegVCR, long files edited in mpegVCR are likely to have audio sync problems, where files edited in VideoReDo or TMPGEnc DVD Author do not.

[masterpug]

does dvd author re-encode or work like mpeg2vcr/videoredo? i own dvd author so that would save me from buying videoredo? but i'd love to know if it's re-encoding or not, since i definitely want to stay away from that! thanks so much for all your help!

[masterpug]

i d/l trial vs of videoredo and filled out the little form to get keycode for full function/nag free trial, but never got the email with key...did it twice. do you think maybe it's not automated and maybe dan will send it this week or something?

[alstatr]

well folks, lots of great replies, but doesn't directly address the underlying problem...why "movie size"/long captures using hauppauge wintv cards (i have the usb pvr2 box) get out of sync audio but not until way into the file AND it only shows up after you try to edit the mpg2 file! using mpegvcr (which does not re-encode) to simply cut off the end,etc produces out of sync audio even when the original capture if perfect audio sync. go figure how that could happen, but it's a hardware issue with hauppauge and has nothing to do with your system or source. i know this because i get the sync issue with a smokin' new video editing machine, capturing from an svhs jvc deck with regular and svhs brand new tapes, through highest quality monster s-video cable! perfect image transfer (can't tell the difference from source) and strumento analyzes as "0" dropped frames. still, audio sync problem when re-encode or just using mpeg video wizard, videoredo, mpegvcr to cut/trim without full re-encode. wish someone had answers for this nagging problem...

This is exactly what is my problem. Barnabas I'll try using virtualdub and using the dropped frames thing with my AIW 9700. The only problem is that macrovision messes up the video if I use the composite or the svideo. If I use the TV tuner to capture the VHS tape I run into the interference that is caused by poor shielding or something on the AIW card. I bought the Hauppauge card because it had a lot of great reviews and i saw pictures of capture quality and sample videos and they looked awesome. Too bad the hauppauge doesn't seem to wanna work with my system. But I know it is not my system because its made to capture video and edit videos. I've made tons of DV movies from my MiniDV camcorder with no problem. I'm returning the card for a refund and I am thinking about getting a DVD recorder or getting a Canopus ADVC-100 and possibly a TBC if needed. I'm done trying to just capture MPEG2 on the fly. I'd rather wait all the time that a DV file takes to be encoded than deal with all this crap of sync issues.

If anyone knows of a good DVD recorder that is relatively cheap (250-300), it doesn't need a harddrive in it. I'd apperciate some suggestions. And anyone that has experience using VCR > TBC (I hope this is not needed) > Canopus ADVC-100 > PC I'd apperciate suggestions, comments, and the like.

Thanks for all your guy's help. I guess I am alittle impatient to deal with the Hauppauge card...

alstatr

[Barnabas]

does dvd author re-encode or work like mpeg2vcr/videoredo? i own dvd author so that would save me from buying videoredo? but i'd love to know if it's re-encoding or not, since i definitely want to stay away from that! thanks so much for all your help!

No, DVD Author does NOT reencode. If PVAStrumento, (the 2.0.30 version only) does not show any dropped frames, other than at the point where you first started or ended the capture, then DVD Author should be able to edit the files without sync issues. DVD Author does not have frame accurate editing, so I don't use it to remove commercials from TV captures, but it's fine for just trimming the start and end of a capture.

VideoReDo should instantly send you a serial number to your email address for the trial version. I just now applied for a trial key and got one immediately, so you must have a problem with your email.

[Barnabas]

masterpug,

I just sent Dan an email about you not getting the trial key by email, so will see if he has any other way for you to get the trial key.