Best Way To Capture VHS that is poor quality

[KilinKind]

Hey all, a few months ago I bought a Canon ZR70 DV Camcorder. And it pretty much cured my frame dropping problems I had experienced before. Everything has been going smooth. I started hitting some older video that I have been wanting to convert over and the quality is pretty rough. When it gets to certain points it will go to the blue screen. Note, this is not happening with the VCR but the camcorder. If you watch the tape on a TV you will see it flicker a little bit but it's still watchable. Run it though the Cam and those flicker points will turn into the the blue screen. I tried a few different things. I have been doing the looping process VCR to DIGICAM to PC via FIREWIRE. That didn't work. I tried to record it to to a mini tape in the cam. That didn't work. Even tried a different VCR but that didn't cut it either. But like I said before, the blue screen is happening with the cam. I tried to find a way to disable it and to accept the line noise or whatever you would call it but no luck. I thought about running out and buying one of those standalone DVD burners with the built in hard drive and run it from there through it all but Im looking for a easier solution. The only thing I can think of is that the tape is just in too bad of shape and the cam cannot take all the garbage at once. Any ideas anyone?

[Tommyknocker]

If you do not have a hardware encoder, you may want to go ahead and try your old capture card, and see if you can clean it up a little once you have it captured. Also, TBCs may help with this poroblem as well.

[FulciLives]

I think a TBC will solve the problem. There really are only 2 models for us "normal" folks as the rest are WAY expensive.

The cheapest is the AVT-8710 Time Base Corrector which goes for $179.00

The other one is the TBC-1000 by DataVideo. You can buy this at a variety of places so you might want to try PRICEBRABBER.COM for the best price but it normally goes for around $300

I've used neither but those who have used the cheaper AVT-8710 seem to be happy with it despite the cheaper price tag. Of course there are those that totally swear by the TBC-1000 but I find the price tag for it to be a bit high for my income.

I'd like to get a TBC eventually and when I finally have the money for one I will be trying the AVT-8710 myself.

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[KilinKind]

Alrighty thanks. The only thing like that, that I do have is a video clarifier that I bought from Best Buy for about $20.00. I tried it, but it didn't work. I may try to buy a higher up brand and check it out. The one I had did a great job of taking care of macros on the Disney movies that I dubbed a long time ago. It worked with the videos but I believe I tried it on the DVDs and it didn't work. But I believe I will buy the one you are speaking of.

[FulciLives]

Alrighty thanks. The only thing like that, that I do have is a video clarifier that I bought from Best Buy for about $20.00. I tried it, but it didn't work. I may try to buy a higher up brand and check it out. The one I had did a great job of taking care of macros on the Disney movies that I dubbed a long time ago. It worked with the videos but I believe I tried it on the DVDs and it didn't work. But I believe I will buy the one you are speaking of.

Most of the cheap devices sold to remove copy protection are not full blown TBC devices like the two that I mentioned in my previous thread.

So a full blown TBC will work MUCH better.

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[lordsmurf]

A good VCR is needed too ... try an S-VHS JVC machine

[RoopeT]

I've had similar experiences with bad quality VHS tapes. I use JVC 7950 SVHS with a built in TBC, but can't capture older tapes either with my Philips DVDR 980 or with my Canon MV5i MiniDV cam. Capturing with my old Terratec TerraTV Value card works much better than with the above hardware based solutions.

[FulciLives]

I've had similar experiences with bad quality VHS tapes. I use JVC 7950 SVHS with a built in TBC, but can't capture older tapes either with my Philips DVDR 980 or with my Canon MV5i MiniDV cam. Capturing with my old Terratec TerraTV Value card works much better than with the above hardware based solutions.

I think LordSmurf will back me up here in that the TBC built-into the JVC VCR units is not the same as a stand alone TBC. It either isn't as good or as LordSmurf has suggestion works in a different way. In other words even when using a JVC with a built-in TBC you can still benefit from using a stand alone TBC which might make the world of difference on "problem" source videos.

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[lordsmurf]

I've had similar experiences with bad quality VHS tapes. I use JVC 7950 SVHS with a built in TBC, but can't capture older tapes either with my Philips DVDR 980 or with my Canon MV5i MiniDV cam. Capturing with my old Terratec TerraTV Value card works much better than with the above hardware based solutions.

I think LordSmurf will back me up here in that the TBC built-into the JVC VCR units is not the same as a stand alone TBC. It either isn't as good or as LordSmurf has suggestion works in a different way. In other words even when using a JVC with a built-in TBC you can still benefit from using a stand alone TBC which might make the world of difference on "problem" source videos.

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

Correct. The JVC built-in TBC's are DNR-optimized, and tend to do better horizontal corrections. A full TBC is merely frame-corrective and tends to do mostly vertical corrections. Some of the best ones ($1000+) tend to do both.

The weak partial-TBCs (like the "clarifiers") are good for weak applications. I myself have one for such needs.

Restoring video is... well... it's real bitch. I'm still milling over my video restoration guides, but I think I'll be rolling them out late next week. Finally. It took time for me to find a way to make that much data make sense to the layman. I'll make a forum post when it's all done.

It's going to take you practice, wasted hours, tests and tests, hardware, wiring, software, good cards and VCRs, and luck and know-how to restore a tape. It's not easy, nor is it quick.

And not to mention, lots of luck.

[indolikaa]

It's going to take you practice, wasted hours, tests and tests, hardware, wiring, software, good cards and VCRs, and luck and know-how to restore a tape. It's not easy, nor is it quick.

So true.

[RoopeT]

The point was I can capture a bad tape with a 30 euro TV card with more success than with either a MiniDV cam or a stand-alone recorded, both of which are very much claimed here to "solve all problems"

[FulciLives]

The point was I can capture a bad tape with a 30 euro TV card with more success than with either a MiniDV cam or a stand-alone recorded, both of which are very much claimed here to "solve all problems"

Either buy the TBC so you can use the MiniDV and/or stand alone recorder with "problem" tapes or use your el cheapo TV card.

Either way don't bitch about it. That is just annoying.

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[vhelp]

@ RoopeT,

The point was I can capture a bad tape with a 30 euro TV card with more success than with either a MiniDV cam or a stand-alone recorded, both of which are very much claimed here to "solve all problems"

yeah, but the only problem I see here, is that you are converting twice.

If you go through any dv device ie, your miniDV cam, you are converting
it to DV format on-the-fly. That's a color-space hit right there already (if
you want maximum quality, that is) Then, when you got your next step,
which is convertion to MPEG (assuming for DVD authoring) you are taking
this "once already" converted DV format, and converting it a second time,
finally to DVD (aka, MPEG-2) .

Though, this could be the double-edge sword scenario here.

DV side of sword:
A - you gain in quality, (to an extent) by eliminating frame drops and audio
......sync that plauge many users here, or

non-DV side of sword:
B - you loose in quality due to the double-conversion process

I can capture a bad tape with a 30 euro TV card with more success than with ...

I share you enthusasm (spelling) here. I too, experience this at times w/ my
ATI-TV Wonder (ATW) pci card. Perfect sync of video, and no wiggling/wavy'ness
in video source file.
.
.
But, in my case, I make a comprimse w/ some of my projects.
I choice between:

* Analog capture card, or

* ADVC-100 device.

Both device gives me great quality output (xcept for the noise in my ATW)
and color are good in both units.
.
.
Also, codecs play an important part of this process too. Example, the ADVC's
output can be assimulated into many assumptions (good or bad) but in my
experience, great cause I have a pretty well tuned setup and the right
DV codec (IMO) and cabling (ie, S-Video for best color separation etc) of
which can match my ATW or surpass it depending upon certain conditions
etc.. ie, source, codec, etc etc. Anyways..

Cabling is always important. S-Video is the highest you would want to go
in a VCR (SVHS even better) while RCA (composite) will merge the color
into nonsense or sluggesh looking output (pending source quality)
.
.
SVHS VCR's would be the best you would go. However, component video
plugs are spares if that for VCRs, let alone an Analog capture card that would
even include such connecitons are scares too.

My point is like this.
If you're gonna go for quality, and have the necessary skills (and I mean
skills) then you deffinately (def) want to go Analog capture all the way.
But, be expected of issues w/ this route:

* choosing the best codec (pref. a lossless one)
* Noise in your source (most mobo/chipset prone)***
* audio sync
* frame drops
* etc.

.
.
while the easy and quicker way out, are the DV devices ie, advc would:

* give you good quality source
* zero Noise in your source
* zero frame drops
* zero audio sync issues
* already pumped up 48k audio
* ect.

*** Most peoples that go the Analog route never actually see the noise in
their source because they (by religious practice) incororate some form of
filtering in their every-day encoding projects, and consiquently remove the
noise. But, this has (yet another) double-edge sword effect too. With the
one side of sword being that they almost always seem to feel that their
source seems to reveal artifacts etc.
.
.
Also, when working w/ DV, don't forget to incorporate the 411 filter in your
DV encoding (via frameserving) to TMPG or CCE or whatever MPEG encoder
of your choice.. else you'll suffer from artifacts in your video, of which are
easier to noice in the red's and blue's mostly (depending upon the scene
and level of color.

As I've said, the easy wasy is the advc. And the harder way, is the Analog
capture route. Your choice

So, to recap...
* Get a decent VCR ie, SVHS (I have a JVC w/out TBC/DNR etc, but works great)
* VHS source quality
* Also, knowlege of your source (ie, Pure Interlaced vs. Telecined etc)
* Choose the best Codec (weather DV or Analog - respectively)
* Good cables/connections
* Capture w/ S-Video (front to back)
* maximum resolution (per spec of Capture device - req'rs skill)
* Filter-chain - though I don't recommend it (if you're skilled)
* Encoding setup and technque/process.
* Authoring medium (ie, DVD aka MPEG-2)
* etc.

Good luck

From the Video Workstation of,
-vhelp 2143

[KilinKind]

Thanks you all for the many tips. I ordered the AVT-8710 Time Base Corrector, but just my luck they are on back order so I have to wait a couple weeks. I sure hope that it works. The VCR I'm using was a semi top of the line Sony that I bought about a year ago, I bought it just for the video capturing so it has been hooked to the PC all this time. As for improving quality of the tapes ... I'm not that worried about it. I would just like to keep it the same if all possible. Improving would be great but hell, I'd be happy just to get it in there The tapes Im grabbing from are also taped in EP/LP so I'm sure thats another big problem with it also. I've been able to grab videos that have alot of jump, etc. with no problem but they were recorded in SP. I would go ahead and dub these onto another in SP mode and try that but I figure they are already bad enough quality wise to take another bite out of them. But I will definatly let you know the results.

[lordsmurf]

Top of the line Sony? If it's not S-VHS, and it's just a plain old VHS player, you should drop it for a more powerful machine. At least if you plan to restore tapes.

[KilinKind]

Now, lets say I get a SVHS. Would I play the old VHS tape from the SVHS player or would I record into it onto a seperate tape? I know it's a dumb ass question but I'm really unfamiluar with SVHS players.. never owned one. And where would I be able to get a decent one for a nice price? You recommended the JVC one correct?

[racerxnet]

Ebay would be a good place to start. And average people could not tell the difference from VHS/SVHS tapes. You can play both types in the SVHS player, though you will not see the benefits of SVHS on regular tapes or a regular player. The playback quality will be way beyond 59.00 dollar players with features such as jet search, strobe action playback, auto tracking, DNR, index search, Hi Fi Audio etc. Both tape types play on the SVHS player.

Ebay link to SVHS players:http://search.ebay.com/search/search.dll?query=SVHS&catref=C3&socolumnlayout=3&lotr=1&...5&BasicSearch=


I would go with the Sony Pro/consumer as a personal choice. Here is another link in this forum regarding technical specs on VCR's:
https://www.videohelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=193553&sid=6ab78fcb69326dfd66bdb7fc9e86c3d6

[lordsmurf]

I'd check out the JVC 7000-9000 line, as well as the JVC SV-10 (or whatever "Professional S-VHS" model that is ... the one BOB W. has ... which is a slightly altered 7000 unit)

Maybe a Panasonic.

I personally do not like SONY, MITSUBISHI and MAGNAVOX machines.

[indolikaa]

Hey, Smurf. Go to bed, man. You're supposed to be on vacation.

The only VHS VCR Sony made that was any good was the SLV-R5U, and maybe the SLV-686HF. And that's about it, in the most humble opinion of this Sony owner.

[duhmez]

Do Not dub an EP tape to an SP tape! You wll lose quality. Just capture from your EP source and cry at how bad it looks.

[lordsmurf]

Hey, Smurf. Go to bed, man. You're supposed to be on vacation. .

That's what vacation is for... mwahahaha .... no rules at all.... including bedtimes.... ever since I hit the bars with buddies this past weekend... the schedule has left the building.

Like now... only online because the computer is doing DVD authoring, doesn't like to do much else with DVDit! PE running.

[indolikaa]

Do Not dub an EP tape to an SP tape! You wll lose quality. Just capture from your EP source and cry at how bad it looks.

A motivational speaker you are not!

doesn't like to do much else with DVDit! PE running.

DVDit! PE. That's PE as in Puny Edition, right? It must be, since the LE version stands for Lackluster Edition. :P

[KilinKind]

Just a update on my transfers, you all were right. Since the TBC was on backorder.. I was looking for an alternate route to test out these tapes so I went and bought a Panasonic DMR-E80H. The one with the built in hard drive.. Well the only thing I use it for is to bypass through it to filter out these bad tapes. And everything is smooth sailing. No problem whats so ever. Once that stand alone TBC gets back in stock I will just return this back to the store. Since it is about $500 cheaper