Dual Layer Discs

[Catman209]

I have been reading that dual layer discs will be coming out soon. Will the DVD burners out now be able to use these or will we have to wait for a burner that can burn dual layer discs to come out. With these dual layer discs am I correct in thinking that we can make a backup copy of a disc without having to shrink it?

[garryheather]

A couple of manufacturers have said heavily modified firmware on the very latest recorders will work, but they've only demo'd single prototypes so far - so don't hold your breath.

Also, due to the specs saying the second layer has to hold less than the first and none of the existing applications supporting such bit management, it's anyone's guess whether or not shrinking will be a thing of the past. In theory, most discs will then fit, but I forsee exceptions to the rule and combating those could be messy.

Bit management is big business - an authoring house will have invested serious money in it. When that becomes available to the home user is also anyone's guess...

Then there is the reliability issue when it comes to playing the buggers back - a lot of standalones don't like the recordables we've got now !

[andkiich]

A biger question in my mind would be if the current batch of set top DVD players will be able to read them properly.

[garryheather]

There's an echo in here !

Then there is the reliability issue when it comes to playing the buggers back - a lot of standalones don't like the recordables we've got now !

[Faustus]

Also, due to the specs saying the second layer has to hold less than the first and none of the existing applications supporting such bit management, it's anyone's guess whether or not shrinking will be a thing of the past. In theory, most discs will then fit, but I forsee exceptions to the rule and combating those could be messy.

Not from what I've read, making the 2nd layer shorter would be easy, fill one then write the other. Instead they have to be the SAME legnth. This is harder, there will have to be burn software updates to allow this.

[garryheather]

OK, I'll reiterate.

The spec for pressed DSSL DVD-Video says the second layer has to contain less data than the first.

I don't know how they're getting around this with the recordable camps, they may well have to be the same length, I don't know. If that is true, there could be a compatibility issue there.

Just think though, that could also bugger up your chapter points when it comes to layer changes, well authored discs have the layer change at a scene change or scene where there is no audio and a solid colour frame, ie black. There could be some nasty layer changes on the horizon, and if your player pauses during that change (which is something more and more people may notice with recordable media, even if their players don't do it now), it could be very




noticeable.

It's going to take some damn good software to put that right.

[sunderland]

its hard enough to get your backups to work properly now never mind if the dual layer comes out. i think there will be lots of probs with them but thats just me. and i dont notice much of the quality loss now so i think i wont be changing over

[indolikaa]

So, will they transition between layers be Parallel Track Path or Opposite Track Path?

[garryheather]

Here we call it Reverse Rotational Spiral - the track on the inner layer basically goes backwards so the drive doesn't have to stop, change direction and get up to speed again.

[bnbhoha]

The news from Pioneer came out a couple of days ago. During the CES they demonstrated that the Pioneer A06's firmware could be upgraded to burn dual layered discs. A few days ago they said they made some hardware changes and that the firmware alone will not just do it. The said the A09, which is due to be released in the fall of 2004 will offer dual layer recording at 1x speed and they will offer dvd-r burning at 16x speed.

[Faustus]

The news from Pioneer came out a couple of days ago. During the CES they demonstrated that the Pioneer A06's firmware could be upgraded to burn dual layered discs. A few days ago they said they made some hardware changes and that the firmware alone will not just do it. The said the A09, which is due to be released in the fall of 2004 will offer dual layer recording at 1x speed and they will offer dvd-r burning at 16x speed.

Indeed. If rumors of the + Dual layer are true which they appear to be then I think it will be to little to late for -R, a shame.

[tompika]

Its hard enough to get your backups to work properly...

Is it?

[RAAGAAman]

recording at 1x speed and they will offer dvd-r burning at 16x speed.

Only 1X burning! That means it will take you 2hrs to write disk. Whoa buddy! I am going to rush out and buy one of these. The Dual layer +R format will take 1 hr for a full disk. Thats not much better but it is better than 2hrs.

RG

[Tearren]

Only 1X burning! That means it will take you 2hrs to write disk.

Actually since you are using a dual layer disk, depending on the movie, it would take longer than 2 hours at 1x. For a 3 hour movie, the burn time would be 3 hours. Otherwise, you'd just use a DVD-5.

Tearren

[tompika]

Actually since you are using a dual layer disk, depending on the movie, it would take longer than 2 hours at 1x. For a 3 hour movie, the burn time would be 3 hours.

And why would it take three hours?

[andkiich]

garryheather wrote:

There's an echo in here !

Sorry, I completely missed that part. I didn't mean to be an echo, it just happened! :

[Faustus]

Only 1X burning! That means it will take you 2hrs to write disk.

Actually since you are using a dual layer disk, depending on the movie, it would take longer than 2 hours at 1x. For a 3 hour movie, the burn time would be 3 hours. Otherwise, you'd just use a DVD-5.

Tearren

Uhm... no burn times are by ammount of data, not time of the movie. So reguardless of if its a full 2 hour disc or a full 3 hour disc is still a full disc and therefore burns in 2 hours.

I however agree that thats WAY to long if you'll be able to do it in better then half that time several months earlier.

[briandugas]

My biggest question is when will 8x DVD+/-R's com out? I have yet to see them in my local CompUSA or Best Buy. My burner is just sitting here ready to go. I think they will release the dual-layer burners before the DVD's are perfected and released to market. I feel dumb for buying my 8x DVD burner because it was pointless. I haven't burned above 4x yet.

[Faustus]

My biggest question is when will 8x DVD+/-R's com out? I have yet to see them in my local CompUSA or Best Buy. My burner is just sitting here ready to go. I think they will release the dual-layer burners before the DVD's are perfected and released to market. I feel dumb for buying my 8x DVD burner because it was pointless. I haven't burned above 4x yet.

http://www.meritline.com/dvd-plus-r-8x-blank-media.html

[-jsl-]

Only 1X burning! That means it will take you 2hrs to write disk. Whoa buddy! I am going to rush out and buy one of these. The Dual layer +R format will take 1 hr for a full disk. Thats not much better but it is better than 2hrs.

RG

Should take <45 minutes for burning a full 2.4x DVD+R9. It sure sounds like a bad idea launching only 1x DVD-R9 about a half year after 2.4x DVD+R9 arrives. But on the other hand there are so many rumours out now regarding dual layer and most of them are BS.

[Tearren]

flaystus wrote:

Uhm... no burn times are by ammount of data, not time of the movie. So reguardless of if its a full 2 hour disc or a full 3 hour disc is still a full disc and therefore burns in 2 hours.

If I am wrong, I stand corrected, but I also stand confused.

I have a DMR-HS2 (Standalone DVD recorder), it burns at 1x, so when I burn 4 hours of video, it takes 4 hours for it to burn to a disk. So you are saying that the PC DVD burners would be different. At 1x an 8.5G DVD would still only take 2hours? This is because it is per disk?

So I would think...

A 74Min - 740 Meg - Burned at 1x = 74Min
An 80 Min - 800 Meg - Burned at 1x = 80Min
A DVD-5 2 HR - 4.7 Gig - Burned at 1x = 2HR
A DVD-9 4 HR - 8.5 Gig -Burned at 1x = I would think takes 4 HR.

I realize the Dual Layer DVD-R is not a "True" DVD-9, but this just illustrates my point.

Thanks,
Tearren

[eats**t&die]

1x in 'PC DVD Burner' languauge is equivalent to 1350 kbps so therefore a DVD-R with a size of 4 700 000 kb will take aprox an hour to burn regardless of the length of the video.

[tompika]

Tearren, the standalone recorders record in realtime regardless of the quality settings

[PhilipL]

Withdrawn

[Tearren]

tompika & PhilipL

Thanks for the clarification. Actually I was hoping I was wrong.

I was basing what I though on my experience with the standalone.

Tearren

[-jsl-]

Not necessarily! It is generally accepted that at 1 speed it takes an hour to write the media full, whether that is a DVD, CD or even a Blu-ray disc. The formula used is 60 minutes divide by the actual burn time in minutes to fill the media completely. This is why we get 2.4 speed for +R, because they burn a full disc in 25 minutes and not 30 minutes like DVD-R. 60/25 = 2.4 exactly!

So when Pioneer say 1 speed, is that by the definition above, i.e. 1 hour to fill the disc to capacity? In relative terms this means it is burning at the same data rate that 2 speed single layer DVD would. 1 speed tells us, like any other shiny disc it will take 1 hour to burn to full.

When Philips say x2.4 speed we know it is unlikely by this 1 hour definition as that would mean a dual layer disc would take 60 minutes/2.4 = 25 minutes to burn the whole thing, surely that would be too good to be true?

It is all in the marketing at this stage, and it will be very misleading if the advertised speed for writing to dual-layer discs, due to market forces, becomes 2 hours/total time to burn just to get a higher advertised speed rating!

Sorry but that's complete BS, 1x speed has nothing to do with 1 hour burn time of a full disc. 1x CD (150 kB/s) for example takes 74/80 min to burn depending on disc size. 1x DVD is defined to be ~1353 kB/s whether it is dual layer or single layer. So just face the fact, if Pioneer will launch DVD-R9 at 1x it will take about 100-105 min to burn a full disc.

[Super Warrior]

I personally don't care if dual-layer discs are coming out or not.I'm plenty satisfied with the current DVD-R stuff

[ViRaL1]

I can't complain myself, but it would be nice to get an entire DVD with extras and all burned on 1 disc without extra compression or having to flip the disc.

[ghoster]

[quote="Star Warrior"]I personally don't care if dual-layer discs are coming out or not.I'm plenty satisfied with the current DVD-R stuff [/quote

yep me to. most of all the dvds can fit on a dvd-r if you do movie only.

[drewson99]

I too am perfectly satisfied with DVD-R for movies, but the dual layer would be nice when doing episodic DVDs (like TV shows, etc. where they cram all 8+ gigs onto the dual layer disc and it is all video, no extras)